S1: well first thing is i found that article. 
S2: oh thank you. 
<P :06> 
S1: that was, seventy-nine i think. what year were you born? 
S2: seventy-nine. 
S1: that's what i thought. <LAUGH> 
S2: actually a lot of the research was done in seventy-nine, i've been noticing. like Reddy, wrote his article in seventy-nine. 
S1: yeah that was the big metaphor, seventy-nine eighty. uh, when i wrote that, i had read a, a draft, one of many prepublication drafts of Lakoff and Johnson. and so i knew pretty much what was in it. but uh, book didn't come out until later. 
S2: yeah. thank you. and, i found, an amazing amount of, <S1 LAUGH> information so, i haven't gotten to get, through all of it yet, but um 
S1: has she gotten, recording levels? 
S2: i think so. 
S1: okay. alright. alright. okay so, these were from the web or from the literature?
S2: i found, one useful one from the web, most of 'em from the web were, um, there was something that was set up, as, a a conversational thing for, a linguistics class, and so it was just questions and replies [S1: oh i see. ] and there were four hundred and twenty-one entries and the first_ <S1 LAUGH> out of the first fifty i think forty of them were [S1: oh okay ] were just, questions and replies that weren't too, helpful. [S1: uhuh ] but, i did find, i actually found something in Japanese that, if i could find some way to get it translated because the whole thing was on the conduit metaphor, and there were just random, um, translations, into English, every, third page or so, but. 
S1: oh my word. 
S2: yeah. 
S1: wow. well, ask Jessica i guess. 
S2: yeah. she said that she's not, [S1: that good? ] that good with characters. she's better with speaking. so. 
S1: oh yeah. could be. still there's lots of Japanese linguists. 
S2: the most exciting thing i found though... is this. it's Wong Scollon and [S1: Scollon ] here's the, the first page of the abstract. 
S1: this is from, Multilingua sixteen one, nineteen seven, ninety-seven. ah root metaphors. okay yes i remember that. that used to be... that used to be the big phrase about the middle of the century. root metaphors for civilization. 
S2: has a better re- theory theory place- replaced it now or? 
S1: well... they weren't exactly looking at metaphor. they were, more looking for things that motivate cultures. 
S2: okay. 
S1: uh, like the root metaphors of fascism. that sort of thing. 
S2: okay. she looked specifically at Cantonese and English metaphors, and then 
S1: right. well she's got a m- a- a more modern sense of what metaphor means. [S2: okay ] yeah. [S2: okay. ] based on the human body. why am i not surprised? ooh that's an interesting take on the American metaphor. <READING> an abstract ideal trying to free itself from biological and social restrictions through communication. </READING> yeah. inside and outside. 
S2: and so she said that a container metaphor, and a colonization metaphor, were the two primary metaphors in English. 
S1: what was the first one? 
S2: a- w- just the conduit metaphor the container metaphor.
S1: a- a- and colonization. 
S2: and then colonization. right. and she says that it comes from, American, popular American myth. of 
S1: westward ho? 
S2: yeah. 
S1: ooh. that really does cling you know that uh, that resonates in a lot of different ways. i like that. ooh colonization. you get imperialism. you get hegemony. you get, you get the gender wars. you get... you get east west, north south. 
<P :06> 
S2: she also talks about the importance of creative development within the individual. 
S1: creative development? 
S2: right. but within the individual rather than, creative development of the entire network, of the entire social network which is what, the Cantonese metaphor is, which is the opposite, but she says that, uh, the American metaphor really focuses on, the very self-centered, creative development of the individual. and i think that works with the colonization idea too, because it's a very... it's the very small group of... 
S1: yeah. it also suggests that the American view of the self, is, sort of takes the, mind body, difference wholeheartedly, and identifies with the mind it isn't integrated with the body. whereas the Chinese metaphor is integrated [S2: mhm ] and the Chinese individuals are, personally integrated and they integrate with their society... which probably has a whole lot more survival value than the American metaphor as evidenced by the success of Chinese culture. mm. ooh that sounds like fun. colonized self. free (xx) colonized self. oh the, the self has been colonized by the body? by 
S2: the self has been colonized by, these individual containers, for, not necessarily for meaning but for aspects of the self, so, actually the American data that she has is from Carbaugh's, study on Donahue, <LAUGH> and so <S1 LAUGH> it's, from talk shows and, it's a lot of talk about, um feminist theory, and, how, within, the female individual, there's a, an aspect of feminism. and so... i think that's what she means by colonization of
S1: yeah i think [S2: the ] wha- she- she's maybe dealing with a... a gloss. obviously it's a structure. obviously it's complicated. and maybe colonization is the best she can get to. but i don't think we should necessarily take the name as meaning too much. [S2: okay ] but yes that sounds like uh definitely worth reading. mm yum. 
S2: she actually has an appendix at the back too of Chinese, proverbs uh m- 
S1: <READING> oh. explode big cauldron reveal somebody else's inside story ooh. 
S2: actually in the last part of that, of her metaphorical analysis of Chinese_ what? 
S1: seven mouths eight tongue all talking at once. 
S2: she says that school teachers say that to classrooms of children to make them be quiet. 
S1: wow wonderful. Chinese are so earthy. <READING> teeth brush brush. <LAUGH> to be voluble to boast of oneself. <LAUGH> teeth chop chop same thing. <LAUGH>
S2: and so she was saying that in contrast to, the American conduit metaphor that, the Chinese metaphor, um, holds a strict, importance on keeping what's inside inside, and keeping what's outside outside so 
S1: and face in the middle. 
S2: hm. okay. 
S1: yeah. yeah exactly. hm. you seriously interested in China? 
S2: yeah. i took the, Chuang Tzu course last, semester. yeah. Chuang Tzu 
S1: oh you did? Chuang Tzu? oh, my favorite philosopher. [S2: oh? ] he's the only religious writer that has good jokes. [S2: yeah, he does. ] ever, anywhere. uh in that case let me recommend a book, called Bridge of Birds. it's a fantasy novel. i use it in my, uh metaphors class. freshman seminar at the R-C. it's terrific. [S2: okay ] um, and it is a novel and it's a very fantastic novel, it's a very Chinese novel, uh but all the facts, except for the, you know the fantastic parts, [S2: mhm ] but it's hard to tell which are fantastic and which are just Chinese. cuz Chinese history is a little fantastic in places, uh are true i mean all the uh, almost everybody in the book that's, actually, sounds like they oughta be a historical personage was a historical personage and did something like what they did in the book so it is, you're never quite sure where you are in this book. very interesting. 
S2: okay. that was my first introduction to Eastern thought, and 
S1: well that's the right one, i think. ah, Confucious is a waste of time, t- as an introduction i think. all it all it does is give you the idea you don't wanna go there. but Chuang Tzu. hm. 
S2: yeah. 
S1: okay. uh, so, how does this fit in with your experiment? 
S2: okay. i'm starting to realize that, metaphors of self, in, within the American framework and the Chinese, framework, have a lot to do with the metaphors for communication. and, that might be something that's, sort of inherent, just in the nature of communication but i thought it was an interesting, thing that, both, Wong Scollon and, um Carbaugh, who were studying communication, put such an emphasis on, the different cultural ideas of self. 
S1: well, they're calling it self. uh the question is exactly which, variety of concept, they're talking about. there are a number, [S2: mhm ] and they can be distinguished there's probably whole branches of philosophy, that do nothing more than distinguish, soul from mind from self from personality from, [S2: yeah ] uh, you know, a whole lot of other stuff. [S2: mhm ] id, ego, uh... and, i tend to think of it, as, well... one of a number of possible ways of, the m- i tend to think of it as the mind but you know that includes all that stuff, and there's a lot of different ways to talk about it. there is definitely an inside going on, in almost everything. 
S2: i think it's interesting though that, as for my research the only part that really matters, is the socialized real- the socially realized conception, of self. so, what comes through in, social institutions. 
S1: comes through?
S2: right. like within 
S1: to whom from what, using what channel? 
S2: okay. <LAUGH> uh through religion, through the dominant, literature, philosophy, arts, um [S1: okay ] you look at, Chinese literature, and especially, i- i really, i don't know too much about this subject but, even, look at Chuang Tzu and the fact that the book was, compiled 
S1: inner chapters and outer chapters 
S2: and then, the extra, outer outer chapters that don't necessarily have anything to do with, specifically with, Chuang Tzu himself. 
S1: yeah it doesn't exactly read like a novel does it? <LAUGH> 
S2: no. and so, there's no- there really isn't that much of an importance placed on plot. there also isn't an importance placed on individual authorship. it's all called Chuang Tzu and, no one has really done all that much work to find out who, wrote the rest of it and it really doesn't matter. [S1: no ] there probably isn't documentation. [S1: hm'm ] but, in Western literature, the author is really important. 
S1: well up to a point. ah there you get into, the, de re de dicto distinction. [S2: mhm ] um, what was it, there's a, there's a famous joke, about the classic professor, who spent his career proving, that the Iliad and the Odyssey were not composed by Homer, but by another blind Greek poet of the same name... whereas, Virgil, if you tried to do the same thing about the Eniad, it wouldn't be a joke. it'd be dull, but it wouldn't be a joke. cuz Virgil was a historic personage. we know other things about Virgil. but we know nothing else about, Homer except number one he was blind number two he was Greek and number three he composed the Iliad and the Odyssey. or at least did something, that stuck his name on those particular tellings of them. 
S2: okay... but what i think is interesting, is not necessarily, the de dicto de re distinction and, what actually matters, but what the different societies think matters. because [S1: yes ] okay. 
S1: yes, exactly. 
S2: so, that's what i think is interesting in a concept of self. 
S1: uhuh. yeah. i think that's right. uh, and we don't exactly ha- it's not like some things, it's not like metaphors for a number of, phenomena where we have physical reality to fall back on as something to reflect them off. but, nobody has any idea what self means if anything. except everybody has the idea that they're inside and everybody else is inside them, their their own, skulls or bodies or, persona or whatever. [S2: mhm ] um, and that in a sense you can't get out and you can't figure out what's going on other places. so there's a basic, basic container metaphor. but beyond that it can be elaborated in all kinds of different ways. it could be porous. it could be, it could be opaque. could be um, with many doors and windows. and you get into things like houses, Freud's house metaphors. you dream of a house you're dreaming of your mind. and you're trapped inside, secret passages, attics basements. 
S2: see and that's interesting because the, something that Scollon said was that, um one of the really dominant, communication metaphors for Chinese is, of, bodily secretions so, the idea of the container is very porous 
S1: that sounds so Chinese yep. 
S2: and then one of the dominant metaphors for, English m- for American English metaphor, um is, more of a concrete container more of a house, doors and windows, box [S1: mhm ] type container 
S1: light in the attic yes. yes. um... i wonder if the Chinese if the homunculus ever, the theory ever ever, had any currency in Chinese philosophy. i don't know. you know the, the homunculus is up here there's this, person behind your eyes who's sort of driving. the question is you know what's in their head? well it's another one even smaller etcetera. [S2: right ] as long as it's, as long as it uh, it- it's tail recursive then it's okay you know each one gets simpler and simpler. but you do run the risk of infinite regress. um, but the, it sounds like the Chinese, don't bother with that. they're there, and they're one person. and there's no nonsense. 
S2: and it seems like the important part is that they're within the social network. not that their one person, [S1: mhm ] is a creative autonomous being but, that they're part, of the social structure. and of their own family structure. 
S1: sounds right. sounds right i mean something has to give, this incredible, strength to Chinese culture. i mean it's, minimum twenty-five hundred years old. and while it's been changed it's been changed real slowly and it's it's resilient, and it's tough as hell. just unbelievably successful. Roman culture isn't around anymore Greek culture isn't around anymore, old English culture isn't around anymore. Chinese culture is, just keeps on plugging. <P :10> hm that would be, that would make an interesting thesis, there, uh, oh uh, while we're on the subject of houses let me recommend another book. um, it's <P :12> the Poetics of Space, by Gaston Bachelard. he's a philosopher. [S2: yeah. ] oh you know the book? 
S2: i know the philosopher. 
S1: it's about houses. 
S2: B-A- U-D-R-I-L-L-A-R-D?
S1: huh? 
S2: sorry B-A-U-D-R
S1: no no, B-A-C-H-E, [S2: oh ] L-A-R-D. Bachelard.
S2: oops. then no, i don't know who he is. 
S1: okay. i think he's an epistemologist or something. anyway this is this is uh, one of his side, ventures but he uh it's a hell of a book. it's about what all the different parts of the house mean. and the different rooms, and like closets are for keeping, keeping clothes which are roles, social roles, coming out of the closet, being in the closet, we have this repertoire of roles that we play in different uh circumstances [S2: mhm ] and what the attic's for and uh, oh how you, go back to a house that you grew up in and uh, you find yourself looking at the same place in the corner and thinking the same thoughts and having the same conversations with the same people, and opening the doors with the same gesture and, just freaky. great book. 
S2: okay. 
S1: alright so now we're were we including, Chinese on the 
S2: yes. <S1 LAUGH> and, i have to say this makes me tempted to just do, English and Chinese. but 
S1: got a theory, yeah. 
S2: but i still think that, actually, the interesting thing that i found from the, um Copernic search, was <P :09> this study, written in Japanese but, translated, into English. [S1: ooh ] um, cognitive metaphor.
S1: <READING> (xx) 
S2: and this was written in Japanese, and all of the conduit metaphor information translates. 
S1: right up to date. Turner and Fauconnier, blending my my. connecting things of similarity is one of the basic operations of the human mind. i was just looking, yesterday, at, what Aristotle says, about metaphor. he says uh, something on the order of, uh, metaphor_ use of metaphor implies an eye for similarities. that's 
S2: i've noticed that Aristotle is cited, in a lot of these. 
S1: say which? 
S2: i've d- noticed that Aristotle is cited, in a lot of this research. 
S1: oh have you read the Poetics? 
S2: i've read some. 
S1: that's about all that's necessary. a lot of it's about this meter for that stuff and that meter for this stuff and who gives a shit if you don't speak Greek you know [S2: yeah ] but uh what he says about metaphor is right, i think and and he- he hit on it. he says it's uh, in fact that's what the superscript on my paper is. (pulu de megastone te metaphoriconae) um, by far the greatest thing is metaphor. <P :11>
S2: i think the best part about this, article, are the... is the... [S1: ooh ] diagrams. 
S1: oh yes. yes uh, this is a 
S2: mhm. he plays a lot with that. [S1: uhuh ] starts out with a kind of, simple 
S1: this is a Fauconnier-Turner, thingy. 
S2: okay. 
S1: their stuff works pretty good the problem is that it's, so general that i can't see that there isn't anything that isn't a blend. 
S2: okay. so the generic space 
S1: generic space what? yeah? 
S2: is that... actually there's a better, sorry to keep flipping the pages on you but 
S1: mhm 
<P :11> 
S2: there. you have the input and output. [S1: uhuh ] is the generic space just the framework, that connects the two? i mean really simply speaking. 
S1: uh... yeah. essentially that's where you store, that's where you s- you store common properties. [S2: okay. ] um... and... it's like the tongue ready position right? the thought ready position. yeah right that's the generalized one. mhm. so essentially some things are going to, going to be generic, uh in other words you inherit them from a higher, uh unit. d- do you know, any- much about programming? 
S2: a little. 
S1: what have you studied? C? 
S2: actually i haven't, technically studied program, programming but, i have some outside knowledge of it so. 
S1: you have? 
S2: just some, knowledge of it from working with, the project and 
S1: oh i see. okay. um, well there's this, kind of programming, called object-oriented programming. and, it's, uh ordinarily... programming started off with, you know everything was do this do this do this do this do this do this. it's all orders. and, then it turned out that, the smart way to do it, was to define large complicated structures, very much in the way S-G-M-L does. and once you once you define that stuff then, you can write a program for that particular thing like suppose you want to, you want to add complex numbers. well you can't just use a regular plus. so you have to have a special meaning of plus for complex numbers. so, but you don't wanna have to try and worry about, is this a complex number do i use this plus or that plus or something else. so what you do is you say, uh w- i won't worry about is this a number, i'll just send it a plus and let it decide which plus to use, cuz it knows. that's called operator overloading. plus is a, is an operator. and it's overloaded because it has one meaning in this context one meaning in that context one meaning in some other context and so on. and, that's this kind of thing. [S2: okay ] these are the, these are the generalized things, but in this particular context they take on special meanings. 
S2: hm. okay. (xx) 
S1: okay. yeah i've i've sat through lots of talk by um, by Mark and uh, uh, Giles, and, i think i understand what they're doing when i'm watching them do it, but then i go off and try to do it and i think why am i going to all this trouble? i mean what's it getting me? it looks more like, <GESTURING> that, than this. <GESTURING> <S2 LAUGH> that's gonna be hard to capture on the tape probably. <LAUGH> [S2: hand gestures. ] <LAUGH> oh well. details. 
S2: um, just from looking at this, at first, what i thought immediately was that it might have some... it might be a way to correlate, this, idea of the self, with, conversational metaphor. [S1: hm ] using some kind of a model like this. 
S1: mm yes. yes i think that's right. 
S2: that was how i thought it might be useful. 
S1: yes i think that's right. well i- i-, clearly the self is a product of conversation, of communication. as you say it comes through. that's all we can know about other people is what we observe and what we communicate with them and the inferences we draw. and and how well their, uh, our internal predictions are met or, exceeded or abashed by v- various things. [S2: okay. ] uh, so i- there's a sense in which communication and the self sort of mutually create each other so that would make them a good, a good, candidate for this sort of thing. uh, did they go through, i've forgotten what_ there's a special name for a special a one one of their best examples, um, Turner and Fauconnier is, uh, like, lemme see X is the Y of Z. did they they run through those things? [S2: not in this ] like um, uh <P :06> like uh... Grgich Hills is the, Chateau Mouton Rothschild of California wines. so you've got three things, [S2: mhm ] and you can set it up to, uh to show how how they work, and what it what it means to say that sort of thing. and you can even, they can even get reflexive like, one i actually heard. uh Cadillac is the Rolls Royce of American automobiles. or of automobiles in general. it's, wait a minute you know you m- and yet it works. 
S2: of automobiles in general? 
S1: o- yeah. i mean it it's you you can see the_ well it, may be a Svengalism but uh but it sort of works. anyway. 
S2: oh, okay. 
S1: so. what are you planning to do with this? [S2: okay. so. ] we now have Chinese and Japanese, in the hopper. 
S2: Chinese and Japanese. i also found, books about German and Spanish.
S1: about? 
S2: about, metaphor in German and Spanish? 
S1: ah, okay. 
S2: so i have all four languages that i wanted to do at first covered. and, 
S1: and and theories coming out every pore. 
S2: yeah. <LAUGH> 
S1: alright. 
S2: so i would like to, just stick with the those four languages. [S2: okay, sounds good. ] what i didn't notice though was that, because, Japanese... can have the conduit metaphor, i was wondering if it might be better to choose a different Asian language that might not. maybe even something like a N- Middle Eastern language or, even Korean or Thai. 
S2: uh, well, if you want, a suggestion of an Asian language that's accessible, and uh different, i'd recommend Malay or Indonesian. 
S2: mm. okay. 
S1: same language just different, different spoken in different countries. [S2: okay ] Bahasa, Bahasa Malay, or just Bahasa. um, and let me see i don't know how the, how that works. 
S2: i actually have an uncle who speaks, Malay. so, he could help me with translation. 
S1: yeah it's not hard. [S2: okay ] Malay is very easy. in fact uh do you know Joy Roe? maybe not. she was in, um field methods, last, fall, when we did Malay. and um 
S2: oh she's the other [S1: yes. ] chair of the linguistics, 
S2: that's right. [S2: okay. ] that's right. glasses. 
S2: yeah. okay. 
S1: uh, she's around now. but, uh she mi- i don't know, whether she's interested or not but she, she knows something about Malay. i know Malay, [S2: okay. ] uh, and there's tons of uh Malay speakers around. 
S2: alright. great. 
S1: av- available by email it's a very uh very wired country. 
S2: which brings us to the next point. i was talking to Jessica about, research methods. 
S1: about? 
S2: research methods, in general. and she 
S1: now she's very orthodox now working with Bob. [S2: yes ] or Dave rather. 
S2: and she suggested that, all of my participants, come from either, this country, or the countries where they speak, their native languages. so, she's 
S1: as opposed to what? where are they supposed to come from? 
S2: well no no no, i'm saying that, people who either, speak German and live in the United States, are native speakers of German who live in the United States, rather than, my native speakers of German coming from Switzerland and my natives speakers of Chinese coming from Ann Arbor 
S1: well i mean you're not going to be able, to distinguish, the part that's, that's due to German and the part that's due to American culture? 
S2: exactly. 
S1: okay. well that's true. on the other hand American culture, is our greatest export and it's everywhere. 
S2: that's true. that's very true. 
S1: i'm not sure you can uh, you can control for that. 
S2: i'm just i'm wondering if it would be, a confound in the experiment. i didn't explain that very well but what i mean is, should i have, non-native speakers who live here, or non-native speakers who live in their native countries? 
S1: well, i would recommend that you choose one and not, not do both, cuz that way, if you, do do both you're introducing an uncontrolled variable. [S2: right ] um, the question would be which would be most interesting. i would guess you're likely to get, the most diverse results, uh by sticking with people that aren't in the U-S. [S2: okay. i think i have a broad enough base that i can ] and, the more variation you get the more variation you get to explain. 
S2: okay. yeah. 
S1: if everybody talks the same it's boring. 
S2: okay. <P :10> oh.
S1: no, no problem. 
S2: okay. the only other thing, that i wanted to ask you about, [S1: uhuh ] i also want to give you, i redid this and i haven't randomized the order, so 
S1: you haven't? 
S2: no 
S1: okay 
S2: so that task is still in the order of major framework first minor framework second, and then, i finished the paraphrasing task, but A B and C are always the same, role so A is always [S1: those'll be randomized too. ] the correct one. yeah. they [S1: fine ] will be. but i just left them like that so it would be easier to see. 
S1: sure. okay that's fine. well then then you get to see, how parallel the distractors are. alright let's see. <READING> sentences below, please rate them on a scale of one to five (xx) on how easy you think they are to understand. a rating of one means that the sentence is easily understandable a rating of five means the sentence is very difficult to understand. a rating of three is neutral. the sentence may be awkward but it is understandable. this is a study on your intuitive understanding of these sentences. it is not a test of grammar and there is no correct answer. </READING> you got a nice variation of the words like uh concepts and theory and uh, conceptualizations. [S2: thanks. ] didn't come in here, that's a good one. i like that one. [S2: thanks. ] that's a nice ambiguity. are th- are they all going to be ambiguous the Bs? 
S2: Bs are all ambiguous. 
S1: okay. getting getting into deeper waters here you know? 
S2: mhm. 
S1: alright fell. <LAUGH> fell before they reached him. 
S2: <LAUGH> (once more) 
S1: <READING> your false feelings, i can finally take in your real feelings, i can't seem to get these ideas into words, these ideas are difficult for me to express, these ideas aren't the kinds of things that fit into words, these are too small for my ideas. <LAUGH> that's great. <READING> Sam's words (were full) of compassion. 
S2: i had fun with this 
S1: <READING> Sam's words failed to convey compassion. Sam does not use words that have compassion. Sam's words are unable to feel compassionate. </READING> ooh <READING> i have to struggle to get any meaning out of the, at all out of the sentence, i cannot comprehend what that sentence means without a struggle, i have to struggle to make the sentence have meaning... i hope that's voice activated or there's gonna be just long swatches. emptied her sorrows onto the beach. mm. 
S2: i started out with that example, um, just as Mary, poured out her sorrows, but then i realized that i needed, some kind of a surface, [S1: uhuh ] so so that she could do the pouring onto something, [S1: uhuh ] without it seeming too contrived, so [S1: onto the beach, yeah. ] so i added the bench. 
S1: yeah, yeah. <READING> if you go to the library and find the right book you will find your thoughts there. </READING> oh the right book. this is almost beginning to sound like Borges. um <READING> written in the books in the library. your thoughts are already written in the books in the library. </READING> hm... that's gonna be interesting. yes okay. looks looks sort of nicely balanced all around. 
S2: good. thanks. okay. the last thing that i was considering was a translation task. and i can see that as being something, very messy. 
S1: yeah, i can too. [S2: so ] um, cuz, well let's see. with German and Spanish, you're not gonna have character problems. Chinese and Japanese you are gonna have, character problems. 
S2: oh that's true. 
S1: and then 
S2: oh especially through email. 
S1: huh? well 
S2: i'm conducting the survey through email. (xx) 
S1: the the there's several different ways to encode characters, and, um, people vary on what they use. so then you, first you have to reconstruct the characters, then you have to figure out what they mean. then you ha- then you basically get to the meaning after you've been through about four or five steps. i think that one would be way to messy for a pilot. [S2: okay. ] at least with those languages. for Malay or Spanish or even German i think you could cope but not with the ones where you don't have an alphabetic writing system. [S2: okay. ] that's just too much... and in fact this is supposed to be a pilot... okay. [S2: okay. ] um 
S2: i feel like i've already done a pilot [S1: uhuh ] with, the first time that this went around 
S1: alright, well now you got a copilot. 
S2: but yeah it's changing enough that, [S1: uhuh ] i can see the need for 
S1: yes. and i think this one's more sophisticated. so. yeah plus if you ask for a translation task, you're introducing, many more ideas, and, um, many more sort of, tasks that are going to stimulate other things. and that's gonna be very uncontrolled cuz free translation, is, quite uncontrollable. you've heard of, Pete Pete Becker tells that, when he does a web search on his name, at A-L Becker, he he finds that mostly he's referred to on the web in terms of, uh, uh Becker's demonstration, as it's now called. he didn't know it was now called that so he's, finding. which is, h- he he does it in classes and lectures sometimes to demonstrate exactly how variable, talk is. and he uh, the the bigger the audience the better. uh, he says i'm going to i'm going to do something i'll say start then i'll do something then i'll say stop. i want you all to pay very close attention to me and then i want you to write down what i did. and he says start and then he usually like walks up to a table and drops a book on the table and then says stop. and then they all write it down. and then they collect them. no two have ever been alike. think about it. 
S2: that's, fascinating. yeah. <S1 LAUGH> okay. good point. 
S1: yeah. and that's all in one language... 
S2: there's something like that in a philosophy class with, describing_ the professor when he draws a square, up on the board, and the students have to describe, what he just did. 
S1: yep. there you go. [S2: okay. ] right? that's uh there's something actually there's something like that in uh Bateson. the one with the uh, the diagram. 
S2: right. okay. 
S1: yeah. okay well i think i think we're clicking on enough epistemological ideas here. alright. so uh is this beginning to uh, to sound more like it might be a um, be or or become, a um, a thesis idea? 
S2: yes. and [S1: okay ] i'm starting to look more into, actually my research on this has led me into, more philosophical realms of the same question. so, i would definitely need to have, either a two part thesis, i think writing 
S1: a two what? 
S2: a two-part, thesis for, linguistics and philosophy. 
S1: oh shucks [S2: i guess i ] we can get closer than that don't you think? no? 
S2: i don't know, i've never, i've never really come across, a philosophical text with research, in it, and so i'm not [S1: that uses ] that uses research i'm not really sure how i'd, incorporate the two. but... i'd be interested to look more into that, and see, how i could combine them. 
S1: okay. well, um, there's no problem, from the linguistics side. we uh we steal philosophy all the time no problem. um, so i would guess find out from, the philosophy side, uh what they think about <SOUND EFFECT> empiricism. 
S2: hm. and then, i was also considering, doing separate, doing something separate for each. and i'm not sure if i started that this summer because i won't be starting my philosophy thesis until winter. so 
S1: i think it would be more fun to see if you could put it together [S2: combine the two? ] after all you know you're not there's not two of you. [S2: yeah. okay ] you may be getting a double degree, uh but you don't have two brains. it all goes to the same place. so uh, i i'd say your task in fact is to integrate it. 
S2: okay... uh i'll start talking to, some people in the philosophy department [S1: mhm ] and see what i can do. 
S1: mhm. fi- find somebody that uh that you seem to click with that's interested in the ideas and that, that y- you're interested in their ideas and uh 
S2: oh and i found the name of the new, professor of [S1: uhuh ] the philosophy of language Jason Stanley? 
S1: who? 
S2: Stanley? from Cornell 
S1: Scanlin no i- i haven't heard of that but it sounds like fun. [S2: okay. ] Richard, Scanlin? 
S2: no Jason Stanley. 
S1: Jason oh boy. uh, Jason Stanley. 
S2: right. 
S1: okay. there we go. uh, Jason Stanley okay i could do a web search and find out his publications. but um, probably be just as easy to wait till fall and uh, find out from him. 
S2: he'll tell me about it 
S1: yeah. [S2: okay ] great, and so are you signed up for his class? a class with him? 
S2: actually he's just teaching, the honors intro, for this fall. and then i think winter he'll start teaching more, upper level philosophy of language classes. 
S1: okay is he uh, is he brand new P-H-D assistant professor or is he uh tenured? 
S2: believe he's tenured. he, [S1: okay ] he's been teaching at Cornell for a while, so. 
S1: alright well in that case he, he might be looking for uh for students. uh... well, you could do worse than go up and introduce yourself and, [S2: oh ] find out, what he's interested in.
S2: definitely. yeah [S1: yeah ] as soon as he ge- i think he gets here this fall. he still hasn't moved from, [S1: cool ] Ithaca yet so. great. 
S1: alright so, then, you got subjects? 
S2: i have an idea of subjects. i'll start contacting the people who, the... girl i know who's living in Switzerland for the summer. now for Spanish, i have some contacts in Equador, and some in Bolivia 
S1: let me see... [S2: i'm not sure ] i have some in Mexico [S2: okay ] and uh no those are Brazil that wouldn't work. um... lemme work on it. oh you kno- n- there are a number of other people around that have, have uh have contacts though. you could uh, you could put a um, um a message out to you know the linguistics faculty, say you know i, i would like to be able to talk to, or to do a little experiment, uh, via email, with um native speakers of the following languages. uh if you happen to know of any that you you wouldn't mind me sending a little questionnaire to, just uh send their email. [S2: okay ] what kind of response rate are you looking for? that's gonna be the issue. they're not there and they're not taking your course you know so. 
S2: yeah well the last time, we had twelve native speakers of English and twelve non-native. and, we really only carried out the research for, a week and a half two weeks, um, since it was a group project and, we did have kinda short notice, we didn't really have the time, to get, that many, participants but, i think, the fact that in that short of an amount of time that many people replied, a lot of people replied the next day i think it's because email is, not invasive it gets there quickly [S1: mhm ] and it comes back right away 
S1: mhm. nobody can tell whether you've seen it and if you wanna ignore it you can ignore it and yeah. [S2: yeah. ] that makes sense. um, alright so i guess you just keep going until you get an adequate response rate. 
S2: yeah. and i really_ i don't even know what to expect, for that. 
S1: right. well, how many, you gotta have this statistically significant size, right? what kind of end are you looking for ideally in terms of responses? 
S2: ideally? i would like, twenty-five from each group, and [S1: twenty-five each language? ] then i could end up with, yeah, a hundred speakers. 
S1: okay... alright... aw that, doesn't seem that [S2: doesn't seem too, huge. ] it would be like too difficult, no. huh'uh. and they all getting the same variants on the same questionnaire, everything's in English, you're not gonna do the translation task, uh, there's only those two tasks, you can, randomize it without any difficulty, uh yeah. and then yes i would say, that's a pretty simple protocol. um, have you, looked into, what, statistical tools you're planning to get out of this? i mean to to use with it? 
S2: i haven't looked at that yet. 
S1: okay. um 
S2: i did some psych research and used, S-P-S-S to find statistical significance, so i'm familiar, with it. i would like to take, Stats four-oh-two though, maybe this summer? 
S1: okay. well when you get results, um, you can always go over to the stat lab, and uh ask to talk to a consultant. [S2: okay. ] and um, they'll give you a a clue on, various things. yeah lemme see... yeah i think most things in this are pretty independent. and there's... yeah i think there's a number of things you could do. okay. and they might be able to think of something, really fancy that uh, because of the way it's set up. in fact, it might not hurt to take, your um, your current, instrument, over there, and have somebody just take a look at it, and [S2: okay ] ask what kinds of problems there might be with it... 
S2: okay. i'll do that. then, next week same time? 
S1: sure. 
S2: okay. great. and i'll find those books. 
S1: okay. moving right along here aren't we? 
S2: yeah. yeah. 
S1: very good. 
S2: it seems like i'll be able to get this out, [S1: yeah. ] in a couple weeks. and 
S1: well you cert- you're certainly uh doing a nice literature search... 
S2: oh. thank you. 
{END OF TRANSCRIPT}

