S1: alright Sue now it's like uh i dropped like Chem one-twenty-five.
S2: this year? this term?
S1: this_ yes this se- semester right now i [S2: okay ] late-dropped because like (xx) i missed a couple of classes my G-S-I instructed me to, [S2: mhm ] and secondly it's like uh i told you i was transferring to engineering
S2: ri- oh but you dropped chem okay. 
S1: y- Chem one-twenty-five and the thing is when i spoke to the um engineering counselor of the, [S2: mhm ] the transfer and she told me it's like uh my G-P- since my G-P-A was like um two-point-four-five or something and she told me, and uh right now in my engin class i'm doing like an A-minus Engin one-oh-one, [S2: that's good yeah. ] chemistry i'm doing like a C. and Math one-sixteen like a C-plus. [S2: okay ] mm i could get it up to a B-minus a B, easily like it shouldn't be a problem but still it's like a C in chemistry wouldn't help me much [S2: mhm ] and i don't see much hope of getting into engineering. [S2: right. ] and i don't want to waste my time doing it [S2: i ] i want to start working on some other major and, [S2: mhm ] one major i'm interested in economics but i want to do something else with economics, what do you suggest? math? stats? what would go well? [S2: no let me_ i feel like ] a double major?
S2: you can do a double major or did you know that you can concentrate in mathematical economics?
S1: what do you mean by that? no
S2: i mean, that y-
S1: there's something i heard called organizational studies, what is that? 
S2: that's ri- you can, tha- organizational studies is an interdisciplinary_ (well) i'll put my pencil in the math section so, <LAUGH> we can talk about that in a minute, um organizational studies is an interdisciplinary social science concentration which means it's gonna draw upon a whole bunch of different social sciences political science economics, sociology anthropology communication studies um 
S1: is it like a very i mean substantial degree i mean organization- i mean [S2: i think, everythi- ] i wanna go back to like home and, you know i mean out here it's easy to get a job it's like you know a degree in, [S2: mhm ] maybe organizational studies but back home in India it's like, people haven't heard [S2: right ] of this they don't even know what it is like if i'm qualified for what kind of job or not. so it's like
S2: well, it will be_ it's sort of_ it's a management-human-resource kind of job is that what you wa-? 
S1: i mean are we take_ are we allowed to take uh courses from the Business School?
S2: yes.
S1: how many?
S2: well as an L-S-and-A student even if you don't major in L-S_ in in organizational studies you may take up to twelve credits, [S1: anywhere ] in the Business School which is four course_ you know you could take it four_ up to twelve credits in any school outside of L-S-and-A, [S1: okay ] but if you wanted to do Business School you could take all twelve of your credits, [S1: uhuh ] at the Business School and that's that's 
S1: i've taken like engineering already, so that's one
S2: and then you can take three classes and still get_ you have to have a hundred and eight L-S-and-A credits, [S1: mhm ] and a hundred and twenty credits total to graduate so if you wanted to take more 
S1: but_ if_ a double major would take me like how many years to graduate like um?
S2: um, it depends on what you want your double major to be if you, want to b-
S1: what do you suggest? i mean i want one to be economics for sure i want to do something 
S2: so you know you want_ if you wanted to econ- economics, and organizational studies you could certainly do that
S1: and organizational studies? i could do both? [S2: mhm ] (i mean,) how many credits are required then? 
S2: cuz how many more credits do you have to go?
S1: i have thirty-one plus like uh i think since i'm dropping this uh eleven (i have) forty-two, right now. 
S2: okay so you are going to need, seventy-eight more credits to go. 
S1: to get an organizational studies and economics?
S2: no to get an L-S-and-A degree [S1: okay ] to graduate from this school, right? so how you want to fill 
S1: yeah but what about getting the double degree?
S2: you wouldn't be a double-degree cuz both of those majors are in L-S-and-A, [S1: okay ] so you'd have one degree with two areas of expertise. 
S1: two con- two concentrations. [S2: right so it's ] how many credits are required for that? 
S2: a hundred and twenty, same amount [S1: same amount? ] it's just gonna depend on how you want to spend your credits. [S1: alright ] do you want to spend, your credits doing one concentration in economics and then having more diversity in your other credits? or would you like to spend almost all of the remaining credits in two fields? economics and organizational studies. 
S1: and organizational studies is pretty much um quite diverse subjects right? i mean
S2: yes it's very interdisciplinary um one thing that you should be aware of with organizational studies is that, you can't double-count courses, so for example if you're majoring in economics and organizational studies you could not double-count your economics credits, for both organizational s- and econ. 
S1: for organizational studies? i mean i'd have to take the same class twice if it's required?
S2: well you'd have to take a different class. [S1: a different one okay, okay ] not the same course twice. <LAUGH> they would make you be more diverse. so that's just something to be aware of [S1: i know the prerequisites for ] but in any event it would be about fifty-seven credits total, for the two concentrations and you need you need, sounds like you said you had... forty-two credits? [S1: yeah ] at the end of this term? [S1: mhm ] so you'd need, how many is that? [S1: seventy, yeah i think so ] seventy-eight credits to go anyway so you're still going to have a good twenty credits to play around with and i don't know how your distribution looks and that kind of thing but 
S1: i've finished like Econ one-oh-one one-oh-two so like [S2: those are the prereqs. ] start out with four-oh-one four-oh-two, [S2: absolutely mhm ] Math one-fifteen Math one-sixteen [S2: yeah ] English one-twenty-five, uh i don't know. what about like uh_ what what are the kind of courses that i can take, you know in organizational studies? i mean i don't know exactly what 
S2: um i don't have the flyer here you can get the flyer right outside of our office, [S1: uhuh ] um but the kind of courses that you can take are going to be courses primarily in the social sciences and Toni Morales the organization-
S1: how many credits are
S2: thirty credits
S1: thirty credits?
S2: you have to_ and t- four of the thirty credits needs to be statistics, [S1: mhm ] and you might be able to talk_ you know, to ask Toni Morales for example you're gonna have to take statistics for economics [S1: (also) ] if you take statistics for economics you probably won't need to take stateestics statistics for organizational studies.
S1: but you just told me that you can't double-count them
S2: right but you_ right well she_ i think you just_ you can just_ you have the stats but then you have take like four credits of a different class [S1: (instead of) statistics ] for org studies yeah they won't make you take two stats, don't worry about that. um 
S1: what other kind of courses are required for organizati-?
S2: well there's a lot of economi- you can take_ this is how it works. you take sh-
S1: so i'll be doing economics in economics also [S2: no ] and economics in organizational also?
S2: it depends on how you wanna organize it. [S1: okay ] (alright okay) it's gonna be, th- organizational studies is thirty credits actually i'll write this down <LOOKING FOR PAPER> do i have paper in here i have paper but i've written on my paper, let me see if i can do something else. organizational studies is gonna be, <WRITING> org studies is gonna be thirty credits. including... a statistics class, right? <SPELLING WORD TO HERSELF> sta-ti-stics. <LAUGH> okay. and you can get the flyer outside our office. [S1: mhm ] and then this is how the rule is gonna go there's a whole bunch of social science departments primarily things like history political science 
S1: i've done course in political science do you think that will count towards it?
S2: is it a three-hundred-level course or a one-hundred-level course? 
S1: uh i think it was two hundred i think i i don't remember. [S2: um they don't ha- (po-) (xx) ] two-thirty? no no no, it was definitely not a hundred-level course, that's for sure [S2: if it w- ] Comparative Politics?
S2: it's probably one-sixty?
S1: i i think so one-sixty.
S2: it would be_ count as a prerequisite it would make you_ for all of your concentrations for economics [S1: uhuh ] and organizational studies or mathematics or philosophy or anything like that, m- the courses that make up the concentration are three-hundred- and four-hundred-level courses, so you spend your first two years here for the most part taking a lot of one-hundred- two-hundred-level courses exploring your options [S1: mhm ] figuring out what you like what you don't like, you know you might like mathematics, and chemistry but if, you're_ you know you work your hardest and you get the C-plus and you're just, it's not the s- you know it might be an interest but it's not a strength so you sort of rethink you know so that counts for natural science now you know <LAUGH> and that's good it all counts, so org studies you have to have, one statistics class and then you have to take courses from four different social science departments and they give you a fairly wide, arrangement. then you have to take... <WRITING> plus you take courses, from four social science departments. uh i just 
S1: one from each department or?
S2: nope well [S1: oh ] there's_ they_ there's about eight or nine departments to choose from so you just pick whatever your interests are. [S1: okay ] right? and i'll just write such as anthro poli sci, psych, communication studies, um sociology, i'll put econ last because you'll_ most of your econ i'm sure what will happen with you is you will do your econ for economics and for the org studies you will primarily be taking political science and psychology and things which complement [S1: mhm ] the economics, that you 
S1: can't i like, um take few courses from psychology and few from sociology for this?
S2: that is how that works yes, yes [S1: i can do? like mix and match. // alright. ] correct. and the th- the th- un- unifying theme is gonna be that the courses which you would take from sociology and the courses that you would take from psychology, are all gonna be about organ- organizations. how people organize themselves how they work as teams how they don't work as teams, what can go right what can go wrong ho- you know that kind of thing so so thematically it'll be unified but you'll be looking at, business issues and organizations from a variety of disciplines, and so, that's how that works and you may take no more than twelve credits, per department... so you can't for example say that you're doing organizational studies but take twenty credits of psychology. [S1: alright ] if you're going to do that their position is just major in psychology you're not really doing an interdisciplinary concentration <P :04> that's how that works. does that make sense?
S1: yeah it does [S2: yeah it's_ there's a flyer in the ha- ] what are my other options to take like along with organi- (Islamic_) organizational studies? economics and, statistics maybe or (maths) i think um [S2: mhm ] it'll take me a lot of time to complete my prerequisites right? 
S2: for what for statistics?
S1: for statistics if i wanna
S2: well let's look at the prereqs for statistics not very many people major in statistics i don't know those by heart. i know 
S1: economics and statistics then? (i d-)
S2: yeah it's interesting that that would be the case. let me just, economics you you need Math one-fifteen which i know you have [S1: uhuh ] and uh Econ one-oh-one and one-oh-two so you're all set to major in economics, [S1: yeah ] and then the economics concentration is simply going to be, you ha-
S1: four-oh-one four-oh-two? four-oh-one four-oh-two a stati- and uh, four more classes right? a statistics cla-
S2: no a statistics class and then an additional fifteen credits in upper-level economics. [S1: mhm ] and you have this_ you have a book but yours is gonna be blue i think but i gave you one i know do you still have it? [S1: oh ] a bulletin?
S1: the old one? [S2: yep ] yeah i do 
S2: you do yeah economics hasn't changed at all. but [S1: yeah i i read the (book) ] they they they tell you you know? you need four-oh-one four-oh-two you need statistics and then you need fifteen additional credits in upper-level economics. including at least six credits that are gonna be really quantitative at least six credits, in Econ four-oh-one or four-oh- you know that have Econ four-oh-one or four-oh-two as a prerequisite so those are going to be more quantitative courses. and all in all that comes out to <CALCULATING ALOUD> fifteen and twenty-three... comes out to like twenty-six credits, total so that's not [S1: that's not a lot ] it's it's you know it's hard work but it's not a lot [S1: about seventy-eight ] and so for statistics which not very many folks concentrate in... <FLIPPING THROUGH BULLETIN> prerequisites went too far... are simply going to be, i've met with people who are concentrating in statistics but they've always been already concentrating in it so i've never really needed to talk to them. you know what this is not terribly difficult.
S1: thirty credits (more) 
S2: okay, right but you know so is organizational studies [S1: yeah that's true ] so is communication studies it depends on how quantitative you want to be.
S1: one course is similar between the both right? econ and 
S2: right well you can use the eco- the Statistics four-twenty-five and four-twenty-six <FLIPPING THROUGH BULLETIN> let's go to uh_ i went to math sorry if we look under_ and here you can overlap. org studies you can't overlap because it's a it's a student-designed concentration and you have more restrictions on it. um i went too far where the heck is econ?
S1: here
S2: statistics you could take Statistics four-twenty-six, ka-chew which is... [S1: mhm ] there. so there. so that does overlap, Stats four-oh-two 
S1: that also overlaps?
S2: mhm thirty no well that's just_ it's a it's a pretty basic class. but you would need to take mathematics through Linear Algebra, so are you in Calc Three now or in Calc Two? 
S1: no i'm in Calc Two. so that'll be like 
S2: so st- statistics you'd have to continue to go on in mathematics 
S1: and i'm done in Computer Science one-eighty-three also.
S2: so that's_ you're in good shape for that if you like that. so you need to take two more semesters of mathematics, and then you'd just basically need to make sure you'd_ then then you're ready to take thirty credits of stats. and they tell you the courses, you need to have both four-twenty-five and four-twenty-six which is Probability, four-oh-two, which is just Intro to Statistics and four-thirteen which i have no idea what it is General Linear Models you're thinking about models and applications there, and then you get to sort of specialize
S1: i don't know_ i i know one thing i have to do major in economics but i, [S2: mhm ] just seems like so simple like twenty-six more credits i wanna do something else along with it.
S2: right. and i think [S1: so ] what you should think about in terms of a double major Nitin is is what are your interests. how do you want to spend your time not just i wanna do something else, but what do you enjoy doing? 
S1: well, i would like to like, organizational studies seem good so that i can take a variety of courses, i mean [S2: right ] something that's just interesting i'm going through the book i wanna [S2: mhm ] take this course maybe in history or something, could i take a course in history, uh in this?
S2: in organizational studies?
S1: yeah
S2: if it's about business history, yes.
S1: business history?
S2: so that's_ organizational studies is sort of, linked around the theme of social organizations. so all the courses have names such as Law and Social Organization.<LAUGH>
S1: and besides um, this and my twenty-four credits i can still take like up to twel- how many credits do i have? [S2: at the ] eight credits at the Business School right?
S2: you_ yeah i think you have nine credits of_ oh yeah eight credits [S1: eight credits ] at the Business School cuz you have a four-credit class yes which is pretty much three courses cuz all the business school courses are three, credits
S1: or i could take more also if i want right? [S2: right ] it's just like i would require that extra credit instead of [S2: correct ] one-twenty i would require one-twenty-one. [S2: you got it. not a biggie. ] and that's no problem. 
S2: and you know if if you're in a situation where you're taking so many courses outside of L-S-and-A for example if you, said i don't care if i don't get into engineering i'm going to continue to take mechanical engineering courses, [S1: uhuh ] you know eventually you're gonna run into difficulty because engineering is not going to grant you a degree because they didn't accept you and L-S-and-A will not be able to grant you a degree because you haven't [S1: (haven't had enough credits) ] had their courses so, that's not a good use of your time. but a lot of students will take like one or two extra courses, that really suit their interests and it's not a really_ very difficult to graduate with say a hundred and twenty-six or a hundred and twenty-eight credits. you know if you have a hundred and sixty, i would worry 
S1: and the thing is it_ wi- with these uh, with organizational studies i will have like, if i wanna like_ summer i don't wanna spend in Michigan. it's like um it's like, i don't know maybe travel the country and s- go to other universities in the big cities to study? [S1: mhm ] and uh, with engineering my, my courses which i could take outside the school are also very restricted. [S2: right ] i_ there are not many classes i could take like in other engineering colleges or anything, [S2: correct ] but do you think i'll be able to take a lot of classes i mean which could be transferred back here? 
S2: to transfer in? you'd have to talk to the organizational studies advisor but yes people 
S1: i mean usually do concentrations like uh four-oh-one or four-oh-two Economics [S2: mhm ] if i do it in N-Y-U will it be able to trans- will it be transferable?
S2: it can you_ we have credit equivalency books you can look it up, if N-Y-U offers an analogous course you can take some economics courses outside of U-of-M, sure.
S1: no i mean courses that are specific for the concentration [S2: right ] like four-oh-two.
S2: if if you can find a course which comes in [S1: uhuh ] as as Econ four-oh-two, [S1: uhuh, then it's like, alright. ] yeah absolutely. you know you need to be careful you can't for example 
S1: i mean before i go i gotta find out if it's transferable [S2: right ] right okay.
S2: and you also can't_ and you have to be careful like most departments will say you can take up to so many credits outside of our department, a- la- li- let's see if econ says that. <FLIPPING THROUGH CATALOG> skipping, [S1: yeah econ- ] too far econ will say, and they do actually say this they don't usually accept transfer credit for four-oh-one. so four-oh-two seems okay but they're saying they don't want. <LAUGH> okay here. okay and they they tell you what they want taken on campus. okay 
S1: must be taken on Ann Arbor campus other than that i mean is anything else i could? 
S2: mhm right just so any concentration courses to be taken outside of U_ of Ann Arbor, have to be approved in advance by an economics advisor. okay at least, twelve credits in the concentration plan, have to be taken on the Ann Arbor campus. and they would in- and and so they're_ actually all they're saying is at least twelve credits in the concentration plan including at least three of the credits in upper-level economics elect- economics electives, in courses that have the d- the difficult courses as the prereqs [S1: okay ] so you can't go somewhere else and take your quantitative courses. it looks like you can take four-oh-two somewhere else if you talk to them in advance. [S1: okay ] um and that's always, just a courtesy. but they have issues about like you cannot take um... right tw- twelve credits you can't say that you're majoring in economics and take all your economics courses somewhere else.
S1: not all of them i mean just like if i in the summer one course some 
S2: right one course two course not a biggie. you know six courses yes a biggie. <LAUGH> um
S1: and what about for organizational studies then?
S2: well same difference. you know again you can't take most of the concentration outside of U-of-M but you can take a couple of courses 
S1: what do y- what do students usually like do, with economics? what's a common double major?
S2: well it depends on your interests, um one of my students is majoring in economics and philosophy, you know if you like, philosophy that would work well, economics and political science economics and history, economics and American culture economics and English, economics and comparative literature is my most ambitious student he's got two languages and economics, <LAUGH> it's uh it's really up to you and what you like, so if you wanna study, businesses and social organizations then this would work well but you could really do a double major with anything or you can say you know, i want the p- i want the ability to explore widely and take a wide variety of courses so i'm just gonna major in economics, and only have one major and just kind of take courses in areas that interest me. i mean that's another approach too you don't hafta have a double major. oh economics and psychology's a big one too. which is kind of like org studies.<LAUGH> [S1: mhm ] but people don't_ you know they don't do org studies they would just would do that. 
S1: maybe i will try like next semester i could start off taking four-oh-one, [S2: mhm ] and what other courses do you think i should take like (to start?) 
S2: cuz you're just you're just a sophomore right? [S1: yeah i'm just a sophomore ] and you're th- you're thinking about org studies. have you had any psychology yet? 
S1: no i'll_ maybe i'll take Psych one-eleven?
S2: so maybe Psych four-oh- you know Econ four-oh-one, and Intro Psych, um if you're thinking of org studies you know, uh maybe two of the prerequisite kinds of classes to think about that, um are you thinking seriously about statistics?
S1: i don't know [S2: do you want that mathematics? ] maybe i should try one statistics, i'll_ i could take a statistics course it would_ um the same one i require for my econ concentration also. it's not a prerequisite. 
S2: i would not i would not take the four-oh-one, and the Stats four-twenty-five together, that's kinda_ cuz four-oh-one's a pretty, [S1: prerequisite kind of thing? ] pretty tough well it's not even really a prereq it's just i know that four-oh-one takes a lot of time the Econ four-oh-one
S1: Psych one-eleven four-oh-one what else?
S2: do you need any humanities?
S1: i'm not sure how many i have in humanities.
S2: how many_ have you had any philosophy religion?
S1: i've had like um no... i've had like uh first-year humanities seminar [S2: okay ] one, one course.
S2: i mean that's a possibility to take another humanities if you're thinking about maybe majoring in statistics, you might wanna go on and take Calc Three. 
S1: i don't know film and video studies also count as the humanities or social science? 
S2: what? what?
S1: film and video studies?
S2: humanities.
S1: i've got one more of that. i've already do- i've done that. 
S2: oh you have that? so it sounds like your distribution's pretty healthy, i think you should be really selfish and you should read through the course guide and think about what you like. and so take four-oh-one Stats one-eleven, and two courses that seem really kinda interesting to you.
S1: i mean just doing economics give me so much like freedom to do whatever i want for the next year 
S2: it's kinda scary isn't it?
S1: i could finish my concentration like by end of next year i think? by_ if i did summer term? 
S2: well, you could, or what [S1: or the f- ] you could do is you could just take four-oh-one this semester, you know coming off_ you could take four-oh-two in the fall, and another econ course. you know you can basically take two econ courses from here on out and then two of something else. 
S1: i was thinking about, i wanted to do accounting also [S2: mhm ] because just for the general [S2: yeah ] idea of it if i do accounting also next semester do you think it would be a good idea with four-oh-one? two-seventy-one Accounting? 
S2: hm, accounting is again_ both four-oh-one and Accounting two-seventy-one take up a lot of time, but if those are areas of interest, people do it, people do it 
S1: yeah i know people i know people who are doing it two people in fact two or three of them. [S2: so ] in fact one guy is like almost as similar to what i'm doing right now Psych one-eleven two-seventy-one four-oh-one <S2 LAUGH> he's doing four-oh-two in fact <S2 LAUGH> not four-oh-one, four-oh-two?
S2: um, yeah i_ so that_ i mean that would be a possibility and that would count as one of your, that would count as another non-L-S-and-A class. if that's something that you want... i want i wanted to show you math just_ oh it's open to math just so you know
S1: math i couldn't just like, i went through the concentration and it seemed like uh
S2: you wouldn't want to major in something like mathematical economics? 
S1: yeah i mean i don't even_ haven't started the prerequisites for the classes yet you know i mean [S2: hmm ] one-one-five one-one-six i've, pretty much no prereqs for, any of the concentrations that they
S2: well you have to t- you'd have to take_ it's the same prerequisites that you would need for statistics.
S1: two-one-five two-one-six
S2: yep you need two more classes... 
S1: do you [S2: so ] think i should go with two-one-five next semester?
S2: um, a lot [S1: hm ] of it's gonna depend on your interests are you enjoying math? do you like it? 
S1: um i'm not sure. 
S2: <LAUGH> i mean if you like it, you know taking something's never a bad thing if it makes you feel, like you're getting something out of it and you enjoy it. and certainly economics says you know the only prereq you need is Math one-fifteen but then they say and i like this what did they say? quote it exactly, economics says you know <READING> students with a serious interest in the study of economics are strongly encouraged to continue the study of calculus beyond Math one-fifteen </READING> and they of course recommend Calc Two Calc Three and Linear Algebra for students with an interest in quantitative econ so you know they're happy to encourage you to go as high as you'd like
S1: i guess i could go up to [S2: um ] two-fifteen because i always think maths, is no harm i don't mind studying math, it's kinda applic- [S2: mhm ] applicable in whatever i do no matter what.
S2: ri- well i think that's true of almost anything you know it's good to learn, almost anything you use it 
S1: math has been the only subject like that i've been_ that has been constantly [S2: mhm ] studying throughout always [S2: yep ] no matter what i've been concentrating in like English for instance [S2: mhm ] math i've always been_ i've always been studying math, so it kinda you know doesn't bother me whether i'm doing it or not, [S2: okay ] i just kinda feel, enh it's just i have to do it it's like
S2: well you actually don't need to do it anymore, even even if you major in economics you don't need to do anymore so the question is, do you like it? would it make you happy to go on? they're happy if you go on i'm happy if you go on are you happy if you go on?
S1: what if i, take a history course? how how tough are history courses? two-hundred-level history courses?
S2: well history courses, are gonna be, a different kind of skill right? so if you're gonna do statistics like if you're gonna take Statistics four-twenty-six and Economics four-oh-one and Accounting two-seventy-five you're gonna have tons and tons and tons of problem sets, [S1: alright ] right so you hafta kinda think in advance, [S1: uhuh ] what you're gonna be doing and that's that was really the only reason i said you know maybe rethink the stats and the, [S1: yeah that's true ] and the um four-oh-one together. history's gonna be a whole different kind of, work. it's gonna be reading and writing papers. so just as you wouldn't want to take you know two history courses and two political science courses together cuz you would just be exhausted from all the reading you know history might be a good, complement to, um economics and accounting. cuz it's a different kind of skill 
S1: i always liked this one history course i'm interested in it's two-sixty-six? [S2: uhuh ] uh Twentieth-Century American Wars? [S2: yep ] uh i guess i could, i don't know do you think it's like a bl- uh is there any prerequisite for that course? [S2: nope ] no?
S2: and that's the nice thing with the bu- you know you can always look it up, you know so and history doesn't tend to have a lot of prerequisite courses. y- you can pretty much you know there's some <FLIPPING THROUGH BULLETIN> [S1: mhm i think (it's here) ] it's two-sixty-six at this point and where'd it go? chka chka chka chk chk right here it just says you know, no prerequisites just you know, it's a humanities. but with history it's kinda weird even when you go to the three-hundred levels they're like do you know how to read? you're interested in reading stuff carefully and writing a lot in a paper, you know 
S1: but are these history courses stuff i mean um [S2: well it's like anything else if you ] just reading i mean i- i've done political science Compar Pol do you think it'd be something like th-
S2: it's gonna be like political science.
S1: reading and writing
S2: right reading and writing. it's not gonna be like um, the prebusiness courses or the or the pre-engineering courses cuz they're not trying to weed anybody out.
S1: i mean, prerequisites Chem one-thirty Engin [S2: um but you know, you know ] one-oh-one? these courses are they designed to be like [S2: oh yeah. ] the [S2: absolutely. ] weed-out students or what? i mean i keep wondering. [S2: yes. ] why would anybody wanna, go on to be engineering? 
S2: right s- so there's no sort of weeding agenda but i'll be honest with you people fail these courses if you sign up for this course and you do very very little work, you will do very poorly in the course you know that's_ you need to, you need to, you know if it's if it's interest-
S1: i don't know i'm i'm kinda comfortable with writing right now. quite comforta- i mean that's the only class i got an A in this semester (College Writing) 
S2: but this, you know maybe you should maybe think about_ so organizational studies might be a nice complement for you because it's a lot of social sciences a lot of writing, economics is a social science but it's more quantitative, i mean that could be a good balance i mean i think you should think about, your strengths and interests 
S1: natural sciences do you think i've covered natural sciences how many credits do you 
S2: what have you had? 
S1: in natural science? [S2: mhm ] chemistry does that count as natural science?
S2: yes anything else?
S1: chemistry and um i guess that's it.
S2: then the answer is no.
S1: how many credits do i need?
S2: you need seven credits of natural science so you'd need four more credits.
S1: ehhh- Engineering one-oh-one?
S2: it's it's not an L-S-and-A class
S1: Computer Science one-eighty-three?
S2: mathematics and symbolic analysis, <LAUGH>
S1: um (taken) something in natural science
S2: i i think you might need to take another natural science.
S1: i keep that up for, some time later maybe.
S2: yeah.
S1: pretty sure i've done one more course
S2: did you take physics?
S1: no. i haven't 
S2: biology? 
S1: nope nope i hate biology i never did like it 
S2: bio- th-th- then then that should not be_ there's a lot of sciences maybe you could take astronomy or
S1: astronomy i was interested in maybe i'll take that some time
S2: you could even take that, [S1: next semester? ] next semester. sure.
S1: don't you think that will be too much of course load four-oh-one Psych one-eleven, uh astronomy and uh history? it's like a little bit, very spread out i mean, um i think it's
S2: it's good to have something a little different it's up to you, i mean only if it feels comfortable to you, but again it's a different way of, of looking you could get an astronomy lab, it would be your only lab course you can go look at the stars it could be, [S1: yeah i mean that's what people tell me it's like astronomy is about looking at the stars ] i mean you'll be measuring distance it's applied it's applied physics don't don't get me wrong i mean you'll be you know calculating the distance of the stars but um 
S1: (it's) probably more like astrophysics and not just looking at the stars that's what some people told me 
S2: well, mm, it depends on_ well there is a course in astrophysics, but you know you wouldn't necessarily want to sign up for that at the same time as Accounting two-seventy-one and Econ four-oh-one. but you might wanna sign up for Astronomy one-eleven or you know Intro to Astronomy. um or um, you know just geological science oceanography or something like that...
S1: <SIGHS> i don't know
S2: you know just something i think that you should just for your fourth course it should just be something that you think is interesting, either something that you
S1: i really enjoyed my film and video class
S2: why don't you take another film and video course then? you know?
S1: i really did enjoy that class a lot.
S2: you could even do a dual concentration with economics and film and video studies <S1 LAUGH> that would be very different nothing would overlap, 
S1: yeah, but it's like, i i don't know if it will like be a good major film and video double major? and uh
S2: hmm what do you mean by a good major?
S1: good major is, Sue like get me i don't know like go back home it's like [S2: mhm ] things are very different back home like [S2: yeah ] the way they, look at people and, [S2: mhm ] things_ only look at big degrees like engineering or business [S2: right ] very few specialized fiel- fields are available (i mean,) [S2: mhm ] out there.
S2: well, i mean economics is a pretty
S1: broad-based [S2: basic degree yeah ] and i want to do economics and economics i really don't see as a much b- big problem for me to get the concentration at all. 
S2: right so even if you're thinking of going back, India or Pakistan?
S1: India. 
S2: India? sorry i have your file (in my hand) <S1 LAUGH> Southeast Asia <LAUGH> um even if you're thinking of going you know you're gonna go back to India okay you've got a degree in economics okay and that maybe, are you in-
S1: what if i do a job out here do you think it's a good good job opportunity with a degree than just economics out here, from Michigan? i mean how, how highly 
S2: mhm, i don't think Michigan gives out poor degrees you know 
S1: i mean i know that, my friends keep telling me that, i mean these uh companies they keep looking at um job interview the college_ [S2: mhm ] the ranking of the college right? is that really important? do companies actually look into that?
S2: y- they wanna look at_ they want (us) look at the kind of college you're coming from and they wanna 
S1: so how strong is our economic department rated?
S2: very strongly.
S1: would you say in the like top five or top ten?
S2: top ten.
S1: top ten?
S2: mhm... this is U-of-M.
S1: <LAUGH> i know.
S2: um very strong economics department very you know renowned faculty um you also want to_ i mean there's_ y- you wanna be a good student you wanna major in something that you're good at so if you're coming from a good school and having good grades, in that major what have you gotten in one-oh-one and one-oh-two?
S1: Cs
S2: so economics might not be,
S1: no i mean, i know why i got Cs i mean i, kind of like took all the homeworks and you know and there_ i_ economics is [S2: ah ] something i want to do and i will be able to do shouldn't be a problem with that. [S2: okay. ] i'm pretty sure of that. um, i don't know maybe i'll look into this organizational studies 
S2: yeah, i think you could do economics and organizational studies i think if you wanted to do film and video studies and it made you happy, you know you could present yourself as a very interesting candidate who had a variety of expertise it's not like you'd_ you know you've gone to a good school... you know i know they like movies in India, you know 
S1: <LAUGH> we um <S2 LAUGH> we got a a film industry it's called Bollywood [S2: uhuh yes i ] in Bombay it's ten times the size of Hollywood. we produce ten times more movies [S2: yes ] than you guys
S2: i've i've read i've actually read a little bit but i'm i also_ so i don't think necessarily that if you were to, either you know do a dual concentration in economics and film and video studies or just happen to take lots of film and video studies cuz it made you happy and when you talk about it you kind of light up [S1: alright ] i mean i think you know people in India will respond to that as well, you know, it just_ it would make you a cultured person with a strong economic background. <LAUGH> you know. there's not really a right or a wrong answer. 
S1: that's true.
S2: it's a matter of your personal intellectual strengths and interests... [S1: alright thanks a lot Sue ] and i think econ will work beautifully by itself [S1: mhm ] it'll work beautifully with org studies and i suspect you'd still get a decent job if you did econ and film video.
S1: i_ see two courses i'm pretty sure i'm taking next semester Psych one-eleven and Econ four-oh one 
S2: and four-oh-one. and the other two, you're a second-semester sophomore and you need to make up your mind? [S1: maybe i might take two-one-five? ] take a film and video.
S1: film and video and two-one-five?
S2: yep. that's fine or film and video and two-seven- and two-seventy-one Accounting. whatever makes you...
S1: alright thanks a lot Sue
S2: you happy so you wanna take your little org studies sheet [S1: yep ] you can pick up pick up the org studies flyer outside our office and if you are more interested in talking about that you can meet with the org studies advisor. 
S1: alright i'll do that. 
S2: was this your bulletin or was that mine? 
S1: i- i- it was my bulletin.
S2: oh okay i don't mean to steal the students' bulletins (xx) 
S1: that's (your schedule.) 
S2: okay
S1: thanks a lot Sue i think i feel much better now. 
S2: so it's really nice to talk to somebody who's not dropping a class <S1 LAUGH> i have to say. you don't know how many dropped just like_ that's good <WALKS S1 TO THE DOOR> [S1: alright ] okay [S1: thanks a lot Sue ] bye-bye next... you're Marianne?
S3: yeah. hi 
S2: hi i'm Sue
S3: hi
S2: um did she hit you out there? 
S3: yeah i already signed [S2: okay ] everything.
S2: i'm sure she'll, track him down as well. let me just (straighten out my) (xx) here <P :13> okay. what can i do for you?
S3: okay well i brought my transcript, [S2: good ] um 
S2: (xx) i have no computer i've got nothing to work with here 
S3: uh the_ <LAUGH> okay. um and i'm, technically a senior now i think [S2: mhm ] it's my third year but i've been a senior since this summer, and so, i just wanted to know, i have the stuff that you did for me last year, [S2: mkay ] i just wanted to know what i have left. what requirements that i need. [S2: okay ] and [S2: you're so good ] i have all of that that you already did for me so i wanted to, [S2: yay ] 
S2: are you trying to graduate early? 
S3: no not at all. 
S2: okay cuz with biochem i'm like my [S2: no i'm not (tr-) ] God it's so much_ so many courses.
S3: not trying to graduate early at all. 
S2: okay, so your distribution is looking pretty happy here. although (at) things asterisked only you were planning on doing a dual concentration in psychology and biochem? [S3: and i'm not doing that any more. ] or biopsych and biochem or something yeah that's probably too much.
S3: yeah i'm just doing biochem.
S2: okay... so this this is still good then so you basically have, seven credits of natural science seven credits of social science, four credits of humanities and you needed three more credits of humanities as of April of last year, which would be oh it's going this way it's it's fine 
S3: i think i got two this summer.
S2: Spanish you got philosophy... so one more little class for you there, [S3: okay ] and that's it. so you_ for two credits so you'd need plus one, i'll just write need up here, [S3: okay ] you need one credit humanities and it looks like, oh it's biochem? [S3: mhm ] so that means i can't count chemistry that's what was happening with the the s- asterisks. ah [S3: oh okay ] but i can count the physics so it all just works out beautifully (don't worry,) 
S3: yeah i have enough science believe me <LAUGH>
S2: it's fine just don't mind me i'm just gonna write Physics one-forty one-forty-one... and you're currently in two-forty- two-forty-one that's beautiful okay alright there now i'm happy okay but yeah chemistry's in the same department_ biochemistry is in the chem department so that wouldn't have fallen under (xx) that was bad advice okay and comp race and ethnicity R-and-E everything was done and you need a junior-senior writing which i assume you can just, take in chemistry or biochem- or you could take one as anatomy, so you 
S3: i wasn't okay i wasn't sure wh- what is that exactly? i know that there's a junior-senior writing requirement, [S2: mhm ] but what, what could i take i guess that [S2: okay ] would be?
S2: well this is how it works and this is where it's really frustrating and i don't have a computer i don't have anything um up-to-date this is like the last printed course guide that existed <S3 LAUGH> and it's it's in this little hand-cobbled-together thing that we bend when we have transfer students. what you'll see when you go online though, [S3: uhuh ] and actually i know they have one they have chemistry for the p- for professionals. [S3: oh okay. ] i know they have a um a junior-senior writing class, [S3: okay ] on that but basically, every semester, online now and this is just ripped off from the Internet here, [S3: okay ] they list courses which fulfill junior-senior writing each semester they have you know eighty or ninety courses which fulfill this so it shouldn't be a difficulty. 
S3: oh great, okay now i don't have to do it in my major?
S2: don't have to do it in physics and so if for example you wanted to do [S3: and (xx) ] it in the humanities you could just do that. 
S3: i i think i'd rather do that. okay
S2: you know and there's tons of courses in the humanities that fulfill junior-senior. so you could just click on junior-senior, [S3: okay ] and look cuz it's funny cuz at the beginning of the list you know they have like Afro-American Studies um three-ten fulfills junior-senior writing <S3 LAUGH> it's like rel- Afro-American Religion and it's just a humanities and it's three credits etcetera etcetera [S3: okay ] so there's just tons and i'm sorry this is out-of-date. 
S3: no that's fine [S2: sorry but that's ] i can i can go and do that i need to write that down um, so i just need to have that some time before i graduate is that correct? 
S2: you got it. [S3: okay ] and you're planning on graduating in May? or no next May.
S3: next May.
S2: you've two full years. two_ three terms [S3: okay ] that's that's excellent.
S3: um, next semester i wanted to see if there's any way_ um i'm taking the M-CATs in the spring. and so i decided only to take twelve credits since i don't need credits. [S2: mhm ] just random credits. so, i'm only taki- i'm taking the second half of biochem, which i'm, i'm taking the first half now four-fifty-one i think 
S2: okay and how's that going?
S3: it's it's okay, [S2: mhm ] it's hard <LAUGH> but it's okay, um i had some sheet 
S2: i don't have a biochem [S3: sorry ] sheet is that_ they_ i know chemistry has that really elaborate graph they give you
S3: yeah i have i have that [S2: i need that ] but i had something that you wrote out
S2: okay i, (xx) this white thing is 
S3: i thought it was in this stack of stuff oh maybe on the back? on the back of this white [S2: yep oh boy i did okay ] yes here here. um, so i need two-sixty definitely for the M-CAT [S2: mhm ] P-chem [S2: yes you do ] so i'm so i'm taking P-chem, [S2: mhm ] and i'm taking, um Chem four-fifty-two. [S2: okay ] the second half of that those will be my two sciences. [S2: mhm ] and then i wanted to take, a Spanish class. [S2: yeah ] just to keep my Spanish up because, i wanna i wanna be fluent. <LAUGH> and so i thought that that would be a nice, breather sort [S2: mhm ] of class. 
S2: and they have a con- [S3: so ] a one-credit conversation class or you could take a three-credit Spanish two-seventy? 
S3: yeah i was gonna do that but, does that count for anything?
S2: it does not count for distribution Spanish is_ this is how it works and they're gonna make you take all these, speaking classes until you can get to the lit [S3: okay, yeah that's what i thought ] so i guess_ (xx) always try to look up Spanish and French under Spanish and French i always have little alphabet <S3 LAUGH> i never look under romance language a little, spazzing difficulties here um, Spanish Spanish Spanish okay, two-seventy is the intermediate class for non-concentrators but even if you wanted to concentrate in Spanish they are like no no no you have to take two-seventy-five and two-seventy-six, and both of those are excluded, and then and only then are you eligible <S3 LAUGH> to take, the literature. [S3: okay ] um
S3: i think i'd rather speak anyway. so 
S2: why don't you just you only need one credit humanities and you've got three terms to go [S3: okay ] and you know that you cannot take four, biochem classes [S3: no ] each term so you're always gonna need, something 
S3: right. so would that be a total waste to take, two-seventy?
S2: w- well it depends on your purpose. [S3: will that cr- ] it won't create [S3: will the credit ] a problem for you.
S3: okay i mean i just i want to to keep up my sch- so i know it will be a personal, achievement [S2: mhm ] but will it, will that be kinda like throw-away credit or will it count for anything or
S2: well you need a hundred and twenty, credits to graduate anyway and since you're planning on staying the full amount of time even though you already have senior status at the beginning of your junior year, [S3: uhuh ] you're gonna graduate with more than a hundred and twenty credits anyway. [S3: okay ] so how is that, you know i guess you would_ we would only even have to think about it as a throw-away credit if you were in like a mad rush to get out of here [S3: okay ] like by May of ninety-nine. [S3: okay ] at which point then it's like <S3 LAUGH> no you don't have the luxury of doing that, [S3: okay ] uh but since you're planning, to actually spend enough time here to study the courses <SS LAUGH> [S3: yeah ] yeah you have enough time to learn Spanish. [S3: okay ] you know and to actually process the chem. 
S3: okay, um and then, i had one more question so so all that i need for_ because i have my race and ethnicity and i have my, um language now [S2: right ] after now after this semester so th- all that i need is one [S2: one credit humanities ] credit humanities, and junior-senior. because, for the creative expression how many do i need three? 
S2: oh you needed three. did you take_ and you're doing_ you did that again?
S3: i did that twice but i'm planning on doing it
S2: oops so you do need that
S3: i'm planning on doing that again though this winter so that would, so i need one, but if i do if i do band again then that would be, [S2: that will do it ] three. [S2: mhm ] okay.
S2: so that works out really well. [S3: okay ] and it looks like you've done really well with the, prerequisites as well. so you're just totally the math is done at the end of this semester? 
S3: yep 
<P :04> 
S2: did you have the... so you need the chem? you need you need analytical chem? [S3: yes i need that ] two-forty-one two-forty-two you need (three-) (xx)
S3: i'm probably taking that next year, i'm guessing
S2: but you're still in really good shape. [S3: yeah ] yeah.
S3: okay
S2: you can have some fun you can take extra chem even. [S3: yeah ] like you can take some graduate courses
S3: uhuh, before i graduate 
S2: you can do independent research
S3: good, okay good i just wanted to make sure that everything was working out. <LAUGH>
S2: do you want me to put um an official copy in your file would that be, cuz i rea- i noticed i kinda gave you all_ you have triplicate you have this in triplicate. [S3: sure. ] um, and i_ you know cuz it's kind of casual but you're_ well i guess you're you're doing a good job hanging on to it so when you do your senior audit just bring all that stuff in we can throw it in your file and make sure it's okay. [S3: okay ] but you're not you- it's gonna be another year and a half. [S3: okay ] you should do your senior audit next fall 
S3: okay what_ i didn't_ what is that?
S2: um basically you're gonna talk to, biochem [S3: okay ] and they're gonna say_ and you're gonna talk to them about_ and it's just sort of a it's a closure interview. [S3: oh okay ] okay, either it's gonna be well you've done everything you need to do for the concentration and winter term's a total free term for you usually it's well you're gonna need the following two courses to complete the concentration, [S3: uhuh ] and they check off on you. and then, you meet with a general advisor, (xx) [S3: okay ] and they check off with you on the distribution, and then you just get a very straightforward letter from the university saying you need two more upper-level chemistry courses and one credit humanities, [S3: okay ] and you're free to graduate. [S3: okay ] so we're doing it all informally but, [S3: okay ] it's just a way of putting everything in writing so that there are no weird last-minute surprises. 
S3: alright, okay. um, and i have one more question. this summer i took a physics and it [S2: mhm ] went badly. 
S2: <GASP> it did, yes. 
S3: and so, [S2: that's a heavy load girl for, ] yeah it was <LAUGH> it was for the_ yes for the spring. so i'm not sure 
S2: and you know that philosophy was probably need a lot of reading for those two credits [S3: yeah ] i bet <LAUGH> okay yeah.
S3: i'm not sure what i should do about that. if i should take it over? i mean it's it's general physics. [S2: mm ] and i_ the problem was just the time. and, my professor was horrible.
S2: a lot of it's gonna depend on your purpose of retaking it. if what's happening is_ you, you know you won't need to retake it, for the biochemistry concentration. that's fine it's just it's not a moment of glory but you've done very well in all of your other, [S3: okay ] chemistry and math courses. [S3: okay ] for the med school issue, it might be worth your while to retake it. [S3: okay ] um i guess i would probably refer you to Carol Brown the pre-med advisor have you ever met with Carol? 
S3: no i haven't. not that particular advisor. 
S2: you can e- you can even email her have you met with Darlene Shoemaker?
S3: i have met with her yes.
S2: Darlene took a job at Berkeley so she's gone [S3: oh okay. ] so that's why i'm like Carol's here <LAUGH> [S3: <LAUGH> oh okay ] Carol's email_ i can just write her email on here, um 
S3: okay you can just write it on there [S2: i'll just ] that's fine. 
S2: i mean and i guess at some point you might want to actually make a real you know a real full-fledged appointment cuz you're gonna you know have all the M-CAT, [S3: yeah ] issues and such um, and i guess it's just not my level of expertise and i'm just looking at your transcript and and the gra- the C-minus is is very flukey i mean there's nothing resembling anything like that anywhere near it. and so i guess if i were you my question to her would be it's just the one grade there are no other Cs there are not even a lot of Bs, [S3: yeah ] um, is this something which i should be upset enough about that i devote another semester, to mastering. um [S3: to taking it? okay. ] and the answer might be yes there's some downsides to retaking (a) course just from a purely academic U-of-M perspective. one is because you got a C-minus in the course even though, it is a crappy grade and it doesn't demonstrate mastery with (it) i i don't feel confident that you [S3: right ] nailed physics, [S3: right ] looking at that grade and med schools wouldn't either. y- if you retake the class you've already gotten academic credit for it. and a C-minus is considered good enough that you wouldn't get additional honor points for retaking it so all you would really have to show for retaking it is you'd be demonstrating to the medical schools, that once you retook the class you did perfectly well. [S3: okay ] which i think might be an important thing to demonstrate to the medical schools but i'm gonna pass the buck and have you
S3: okay [S2: email Carol. ] so that so it wouldn't change my grade point at all is that what you're saying?
S2: it won't change your G-P-A at all. at all 
S3: at all? 
S2: hm'm [S3: okay ] if you'd gotten a D it would [S3: okay ] <SS LAUGH> but you didn't do that bad 
SU-F: excuse me how long are you going to be here?
S2: um i'm gonna be here until seven-thirty.
SU-F: okay thank you.
S2: okay.
S3: okay.
S2: so i'm sorry to be so waffling on that. but uh, 
S3: no that's_ i will i will 
S2: the only reason to retake the course frankly that i can think of is that it would be significant to medical school. [S3: okay ] and for that reason i will defer you to the pre-med advisor. 
S3: okay. good i'll i'll ask her about that okay great. i think that i'm set then. [S2: okay ] for this semester. thank you.
S2: she's real good and real conscientious, [S3: good ] she might be difficult to get in to see right now, [S3: okay yeah ] because Darlene did just abandon her, <S3 LAUGH> um but you know she can definitely answer (anything) you can probably make an appointment with her for the end of December or you know, [S3: okay ] when you're taking your exams and you don't wanna see her. 
S3: yeah <LAUGH> okay that's great.
S2: okay well that's_ i'm glad that, things are going well and 
S3: yeah, i was surprised to th- i guess_ what is senior standing? how many credits? do you kn- do you know what the cutoff 
S2: um eighty-five credits.
S3: oh it's eighty-five [S2: mhm ] okay i thought it was more than that. 
S2: and if you, you know what's nice though is that you can take whatever psychology you want, [S3: uhuh ] without trying to take it all. 
S3: right, exactly. okay thank you very much.
S2: you're welcome.
S3: and i'm sure i'll see you later <S3 LAUGH>
S2: i hope so
S3: bye 
S2: good to see people still smiling at this time of year. 
S3: yeah <S3 LAUGH> thanks
S2: bye-bye. <ADDRESSING HALLWAY> anybody waiting next? <P :11> hi 
<BREAK IN RECORDING> 
S4: back in i was like w- what is that? 
S2: it's all gonna be like it's all gonna be language, code [R1: yep ] it's gonna be in code. 
R1: you're free to go and i'll come back when you're done.
S2: thanks Janine. um, [S4: okay ] it's about academic language um okay. so you have a D-plus in Math one-oh-five, right now. 
S4: yeah and i talked to (Clint) about it and the way it works out is, um i- the D-plus is the average of my test grades [S2: mhm ] pretty much, [S2: right and then you got your little homework ] well it just it just worked out that, um like my D-plus_ because, the first test was uh, fifteen [S2: mhm ] i think, and the second test was twenty that's thirty-five percent so, um you know the thirty-five percent, gives me the D- gave me a D-plus which means that i'd have to get, like i think a B on the last test to get like C-minus or a C. and i mean i don't know if like, i mean i know i have to make this decision like 
S2: and there's a question of mastery involved here too i mean [S4: right ] how confident are you feeling about pre-calc concepts at this point?
S4: this new chapter, like i'm i'm understanding. and the stuff from before i mean i got a C-minus on the last test, but that's you know partly because there's some st- there are a couple things i was fuzzy on, [S2: mhm ] and then, um, like i didn't i just i didn't do like enough of my homework, i guess you know (for the course.) 
S2: you mean you didn't turn it in or you didn't finish it?
S4: well he doesn't he doesn't collect it.
S2: oh yeah you were supposed to keep on it yourself. okay 
S4: yeah yeah so, so like i mean right now i've started you know working with a friend where we do our homework together which, you know [S2: which helps ] that way i know if i'm doing it right or not. but um
S2: before the test.
S4: yeah before the test <S2 LAUGH> exactly. but i mean the question is it_ i mean if i get like a B-minus on_ a D-minus or a C-plus on the test, there is a chance that i'd get a C-minus in the class but [S2: mhm ] i mean i don't want a D-plus in the class. 
S2: i don't think anybody would want that.
S4: so i mean is a C-minus equally as bad?
S2: no C-minus is a little better than a D-plus, <S4 LAUGH> [S4: a little better ] i think, you've got some long-term k- i mean i i'm hearing a couple things one is that i- i- it's_ it took you a while to sort of figure out how to study for this class. [S4: yeah <LAUGH> ] how to keep on top of it. and and now you kind of, have a handle on that, <S4 LAUGH> and you understand things that you can do to keep yourself on track. [S4: right ] um, and if you have a question or a problem it's so much better to talk to the G-S-I ahead of time and, say i'm not understanding this than to, do it after the test because, you can use the information you get ahead of time [S4: right ] to do well on the test. um, but now now you were thinking are you still thinking that you want to go to the Business School though?
S4: yeah.
S2: okay [S4: (xx) ] i mean cuz i i think you've got you got a couple of different implications neither one of them are particularly easy. okay if you decide that you want to withdraw from this course because you were doing poorly, you would then need to repeat the course. [S4: right ] which you could do in the winter term. but that would mean that, you wouldn't be able to take calculus until, the summer term or the following fall or something like that and, you're you're probably gonna en- end up having to defer your, admissions to the B-school like you could apply at the same time that everybody else applies but they're not gonna make a decision ont- on you until all of your prerequisites are done. [S4: i see ] for the most part unless you just if you get a C in everything they'll just reject you outright but, if you haven't finished the prereqs and you've been doing pretty well, they're gonna be like mm gonna see how he_ you know wait and see how he does. um, if you stick with the class and you don't do real well, the B-school_ it's not as though getting one C or a C-minus is gonna totally kill you [S4: right ] if you're also doing well in your other classes [S4: well ] and you do well in other things. 
S4: well w- right but w- [S2: so ] well a- as far as well in other classes like wh- what is the quasi-definition of that. 
S2: well for the business school th- i- G- G-P-As are usually between like a [S4: like a three ] a three-three three-four you know so so a B-plus A-minus
S4: right. <LAUGH> well to me that's good.
S2: well. like that you know that's right but that's doing doing w- so what for you is doing well if
S4: doing well is like a B B-minus i mean
S2: okay well [S4: that'd be ] the B-school is a little more rigorous 
S4: cuz that'd be that'd be doing well you know you're you're doing pretty well.
S2: i think that would fo- for me that would be solid you know [S4: okay solid. ] you're doing you're solid there's a little bit of grade inflation at U-of-M so most people sorta you know B-minus C-plus is kinda average i don't know what happened but you know C is you know you're like worried i might get a C-minus in this class. [S4: mhm ] um that's below average whereas you know in the old-world grading scheme that would be just right on average and now it's not you're like ooh. um, but the thing to consider is, dropping Math one-oh-five would mean that you'd need to retake it, the following [S4: right ] semester. sticking with it and not doing well would mean that you'd have, you know a fairly unimpressive grade on your transcript what other courses are you taking? 
S4: um currently?
S2: yeah
S4: English, uh God what is it, it's an English class that doesn't count for my_ it doesn't fulfill the freshman, [S2: so it's a first-year seminar in English? no it's ] no it's not it doesn't fulfill the freshman writing requirement. [S2: is it two-eighty-five the twentieth-century literature kind of a lecture class ] yes yes yes 
S2: with um Herman Elmwood?
S4: yes
S2: okay. you were a late orientee weren't you i saw you at the end of August okay 
S4: yeah, yeah okay. <S2 LAUGH> i though it would be good practice but, you know the thing with that class that k- that really kinda sucks is the fact that um, you know i enjoy the class and th- the only thing is is that like we do assignments, [S2: yeah ] but it took me a while to figure out that the assignments like he doesn't, you know he reads them, 
S2: he doesn't_ he's got a lot of papers. right it's not Intro Comp. 
S4: but he doesn't really critique them you know he just it's just to see like that you're reading. [S2: right ] and you know so then when the midterm came around it was like hello. <LAUGH> you know i like i did my reading and everything but i didn't know how to write like he wanted me to per se. but um see in English 
S2: ho- how did you do on the midterm?
S4: i got a C-plus. [S2: that's okay mhm ] i mean but i got_ but before that i had an A in the class so, [S2: so you're doing, B-level work you're fine ] so i mean i i think i can get you know an A in that class hopefully. [S2: okay good good goal ] no less than a B-plus. but um, uh philosophy one-ninety-two, i think 
S2: seminar in philosophy?
S4: no this is the Problems of Philosophy
S2: two-thirty-two
S4: two-thirty-two. um, and in that class i'm doing alright i think i got, i got a C-plus on the midterm but that was twelve-point-five percent, the grade [S2: mhm ] and i got a B on one of my papers which is worth more, so um, [S2: yeah okay ] anthropology i'm doing well
S2: yeah you're doing, pretty [S4: so ] solid (and) pretty well in everything.
S4: it's just math like if, you know i thi- see like that's the thing like i'd hate to stick with this get like a C-plus on the midterm on the final i mean, and then [S2: mhm ] you know 
S2: question if you were to [S4: that stinks ] drop math would you be able to spend_ do you feel like you're spending so much time on math that it's detracting from your other classes? are you at this point, you know spending so much time on this course that 
S4: well, if i had done this all along then i'd h- probably answer yes, but, um... i don't i don't know i don't think so. [S2: okay. ] like
S2: so you feel like if you were to stick with the math and keep trying to work to improve and you have to get at least, you said like a B B-minus on the? B-p- B-minus C-plus on the final in order to?
S4: yeah most likely a B B-minus really
S2: and you_ do you have a tutor? are you going to_ how how are you_ [S4: well ] you're working with a friend you're doing homework with your friend
S4: right i'm doing homework with my friend but to study for the test i'm still kinda, i mean i need to start like fairly qu- fairly soon. [S2: yes (even if you) ] and, i'm not sure the best way to do it like i mean, i'd probably have to like go to that engineering thing that you 
S2: the Tau Beta Pi?
S4: yeah
S2: those are nice people actually i've heard real good [S4: and like ] feedback about them they're, they're really into tutoring very accessible, [S4: (okay) ] not snotty
S4: i guess (i could) like go back and do like the review problems or something like that but
S2: yeah... just (try no-) it's just one of those things i can't make the call for you [S4: yeah i know i know that i know that. ] i mean and i think that there are there are pretty serious implications of dropping it because, 
S4: yeah cuz [S2: just, you know ] then because if i drop it then i think i'm down to eleven credits then the Business School doesn't like that either. so [S2: you got it. and so i guess if you have the ] you know it's like it's a catch-twenty-two. 
S2: if you have the energy and math is not sucking you dry you know it's_ occasionally i'll talk to somebody and they're they're saying it's (no) 
S4: i think it's a matter of_ it's not even a matter of energy like i think i just need to manage my time better [S2: yeah ] because i s- i mean i do waste a lot of time. and you know [S2: mhm ] i mean if i, like i could do ev- i think i really could pull it off it's just a matter of, you know 
S2: right. well i i like hearing_ i like li- listening to that, i know for a fact you know there's no guaran- i'm not a Business School admissions counselor [S4: right yeah ] i know for a fact that people who have gotten Cs in an in an occasional course have been admitted to the Business School they're not looking for perfection they're looking for you to challenge yourself. [S4: right <LAUGH> ] so if you take Math one-oh-five and you struggle with it and it sounds like in part you struggled with it because it's your very first semester in college [S4: yeah it's kinda w- it's kinda weird ] it took you a while to kinda figure out that your natural beauty and brains weren't gonna <S4 LAUGH> carry you you know as far as they did before, you know and now you've figured it out you struggled, you know you get a C C-minus kinda grade not good if you go on to calculus and do well they will notice that. [S4: mhm ] and there there is Math Lab. 
S4: yeah i know i've been there. couple of times 
S2: and you know you got your friends now you know [S4: yeah ] and_ to study with and the G-S-I's office hours. [S4: yeah ] you know i mean cuz y- it sounds like you've had a good heart-to-heart with with him he's been honest with you what you need, [S4: yeah ] you don't need to get a hundred on everything here on out in order to sort of,
S4: oh it would definitely [S2: finish the class with what_ well yeah but that's ] help but i mean he said that he said that it really comes down to the, the final. [S2: mhm ] i think that's really it. it's just, but um
S2: yeah i don't i mean, i guess my my my i can't make any promises [S4: yeah ] i can't promise that you'll do well [S4: right ] in the class if you [S4: how much ] stick with it but it sounds like you're not so stressed... [S4: not yet <LAUGH> ] that that you need to drop it.
S4: yeah no i don't i don't think so.
S2: and that you can get_ and i and i think if you get a C in this class it's recoverable if you do well in economics and Math one-fifteen it's fine. 
S4: and as far as a C-minus though?
S2: again if you do well in economics and Math one-fifteen, you know again what they're gonna see there is an issue of adjustment and that might even be something that you'd want to address in your Business School essay. [S4: mhm ] what did you learn this semester. <S4 LAUGH> you know?
S4: oh quite a bit,
S2: <LAUGH> but that_ you know what i'm saying [S4: yeah ] i mean a lot of it of course if you get a C-minus in Math one-oh-five and then you get a C in Math one-fifteen and a C in econ the Business School's pretty much a wipeout but [S4: right ] i've actually asked the Business School advisor this before cuz students will say they wanna withdraw from a course cuz they're gonna get a C. and the Business School would rather see somebody like struggle with it, get the C, move on with their life, do something interesting and challenging the next semester, than withdraw. [S4: right ] you know i think if you're failing if you have a thirty-three percent overall and you need to get you know a hundred on the next, [S4: mhm ] all the next homeworks they're not even collecting them but the next exam in order to get a C-minus then you're being kind of unrealistic because that's not gonna happen. [S4: mhm ] but, it seems like the goals that you're setting for yourself in this class seem reasonable. [S4: mhm... okay ] and that you, i'm just it's just one of those things [S4: yeah ] i can't really i mean [S4: yeah i know i i understand. i understand. ] if you wanna drop it you can. um but it also sounds like this is something that you could probably ride right out, <LAUGH> [S4: yeah <LAUGH> ] if you have the time i mean it's gonna take a commitment from you though i don't think, you can't keep getting D D-plus on the, [S4: yeah ] tests... [S4: okay ] cuz then we know what will happen. [S4: yeah <LAUGH> ] and then you should probably drop it so if you can't do any better than you're doing now 
S4: no i mean i think i could do better <P :04> yeah i th- i don't know. <LAUGH> let's see i mean i i think i could do better i just need to go back [S2: it's hard ] and review [S2: yeah ] the stuff from the first chapter 
S2: but r- and also really systematically. [S4: mhm ] so i don't know if your friend is into reviewing with you [S4: right ] and setting aside time each week but that's actually what they recommend in terms of studying for college is not cramming. but rather doing all the problem sets and reviewing the problem sets. sort of consistently to make sure that you know you're still understanding it let me see if i have my little, study strategies paper. is this it? taking exams that's not it... this is it problem sets yeah. little written on but still good i'll give it to you i'm sure we have others, but they talk about you know studying for mathematics this is written by kind of smart-alecky graduate students. it's got kind of a humorous tone but you know counselors often hear students say well you know i kind of understood the basic concepts but i had a really hard time applying stuff is usually what they say. [S4: (oh yeah) ] and what they recommend is do all of the assigned problems. not once but three times so they're encouraging you to be obsessive. [S4: oh wow. ] and they tell you how to do it three times. 
S4: what do you mean like all the assigned problems you mean like all the homeworks? 
S2: all of the homework. mhm
S4: so every time you do homework you should do it three times?
S2: yeah but not necessarily three times in a row. first [S4: oh ] you know first yes you read the chapters in your textbook as they're assigned but don't stop there then you do the problem sets at the end of each section right after you've read it... right? cuz then you know right off the bat that if you can do all the problems, you're confident that you know it. [S4: mhm ] if right after you've gotten the reading, you do the problems and you find yourself pulling your hair out, you know at a fairly early point in the term, that all is not well. and at that point to get, you know they say go talk to your friends go talk to your instructor go bother people. <LAUGH> do it now before you move on to another topic <LAUGH> and this one just kind of, and that's what's happening with you is you're saying okay i need to go back to the beginning and figure out what topics i've, [S4: mhm ] i've missed. okay and then they have their little don't worry you know don't don't do it on loose pieces of paper you know set it aside so you can review it. um and then this_ they say this and this is probably something that you should do, with the stuff that you've been doing pretty consistently. cuz i don't think you should try to go back and redo it all at once cuz that's cramming and i don't think people learn real well that way. [S4: right no ] but if you could do like a little bit of an old homework assignment? 
S4: like at the end of each like at the end of each week just do all the homework from the week?
S2: right and since you missed some stuff you might wanna do all the homework from the week but then go back and review, <LAUGH> [S4: yeah ] something that you didn't understand. [S4: right ] but maybe just one thing that you didn't understand like don't try to do it all, cuz your brain will get fried and you'll get tired and feel all despondent and <LAUGH> i'll never get it. um and then they do say review it. so af- so when you're not doing your homework set aside time during the week just to kinda review it. just to make sure that you're still understanding what you did and this is_ like i'm not very good at math and (whenever) this would happen to me a fair amount like i would do it i would understand it in a moment, and then two months later i'd have no idea what i had (in mind.) 
S4: right yeah, yeah i g- i have that problem.
S2: um so they recommend sort of keeping it fresh in your mind [S4: mhm ] so that you don't run into that on the exam where you're just like <GASP> i forget how to do this i don't even remember what they're asking. <LAUGH> [S4: mhm ] um, and then they say a week or so before the test and i think you're right because you have left some stuff c- out, um start a systematic review. go through everything. just do proo- and they they they have a little system like don't redo all the homework because that's not necessary but first do a few problems from each chapter some easy some hard and basically you know what you remember you remember what you forget, that's the stuff John that you need to, [S4: mhm ] look at. and i don't know if that boils it down but i kinda
S4: no no that helps yeah that very helps that helps a lot 
S2: like their tone, and i think you should if you're gonna stick with the class you should be hounding your G-S-I a fair amount 
S4: oh i plan to <SS LAUGH> now i don't have much of a choice 
S2: because you know there's there's no guarantee of anybody upping your grade, [S4: right ] but certainly if if he sees you're putting forth a valiant effort 
S4: but if he sees that yeah i mean if i see_ if he sees that i'm really trying and that i'm really getting the stuff like i mean that kinda thing (can raise) 
S2: and that you you recognize you know the error of your old ways [S4: yeah ] and you know [S4: ye- ] if if he'll get [S4: yeah, maybe ] a little bit of flexibility if he can tweak you up a little bit, [S4: yeah ] y- you know he might. they won't ever tweak you down unless you blow off a lot of classes or anything [S4: right ] but um and he's not obli- he's not obligated to [S4: right no i i understand that. ] boost you but, often with the_ the math G-S-Is will because i mean they know that this stuff does not come easily to everybody. [S4: yeah ] and it's different to see a student who's a C student 
S4: now after you take that final exam, and you get the grade back do you_ can y- is there still time to talk to the G-S-I? or no? like i mean like what i'm saying is like you know like let's say, let's say i'm really close. like like i'm talking, <GESTURING> you know what i mean? [S2: mhm ] like is there still a chance to like kinda just ask him? 
S2: to what end? to ask him to bump you up? [S4: yeah ] um i i wouldn't, [S4: (oh) no ] do that because, [S4: okay ] i mean you're not really, asking for a g- i mean if you have a grade grievance you feel like they graded you inappropriately or something and you could come up with some questions about why you got the grade you got. [S4: mhm ] but, 
S4: right, i understand 
S2: i mean if you're just gonna come in and say well you know can you up my grade a little bit you know, i'll be [S4: yeah ] honest with you as a G-S-I (i figure if you) wanna do that you should do it for everybody. 
S2: <MOTIONING TO PASSERBY> hey there... you know what i'm saying? 
S4: yeah i know i hear, yeah <SS LAUGH>
S2: so you should have some sort of_ [S4: right that makes sense ] i think the time to talk to the G-S-I is now while you [S4: right ] can still raise your grade. after the fact if you're confused about what grade you got and you need an explanation or if you feel that you've been maligned and you know treated poorly you know you can you know go and talk about that but um, no no a simple would you mind giving me a B-minus 
S4: right no i know yeah yeah yeah there's no way i understand. 
S2: rather than a C-plus that won't fly and i remember even as an Intro Comp teacher i had people say i really need a A-minus cuz i'm going into the Business School and i'd be like well write a better paper. <LAUGH> [S4: right right right ] i'm happy to read, you know cuz a- you feel as a teacher you're happy to read all the drafts they give you you know you talk to [S4: right no i see i see ] them in class and stuff, you know they're not gonna, give you something for nothing. [S4: right ] yeah so you need to, take control of what you can control. [S4: right ] and it sounds like you can control how you're studying for the class.
S4: okay
S2: and if you need to get a tutor that's another option, although it sounds like you might be okay 
S4: i don't know we'll see <LAUGH> but, [S2: i mean ] okay. yeah no this helps. 
S2: you sure? [S4: yeah ] okay i mean i didn't mean to i got a little pro-math i didn't mean to there but 
S4: yeah no no no no no 
S2: when you said that you didn't think that it would be too overwhelming to to [S4: no i don't, i don't think so i think i could i mean i think ] struggle through it i i'd rather see_ i think educationally it would be better for you to struggle through it <S4 LAUGH> than to run away with your tail between your legs.<LAUGH>
S4: well no because i mean i don't, cuz the problem is is like you know and then i gotta take again next semester and it's just, [S2: right ] yeah. 
S2: right.
S4: i mean, like i mean cuz i did a lot better on the second test the first test i failed the second test, [S2: mhm ] i got, like (i-) if you took it just out of like a raw where it_ no curve i did [S2: mhm ] i did you know i did bad. but because there was a curve and everybody else did bad i didn't do [S2: mhm ] as bad. [S2: yeah ] but 
S2: well that's something to be said for that i mean you're in a class with other first-year students who're all going through similar stuff to you and, [S4: right ] and i think you know if you get better with each progressive test you know you're learning something about your own learning style about how to study about the expectations of the teacher on the exam, you know and that's all [S4: mhm ] sort of, healthy adapting. 
<P :04> 
S4: okay
S2: um so if you decide to drop the class the last day to drop it is tomorrow. 
S4: right
S2: did i give you a drop form? when i saw you last? 
S4: yeah 
S2: okay so you have that, [S4: mhm ] um you know so if that's the decision you make that's your_ it's your decision to make [S4: right right no i i know ] i can't make that for you. um, if you do decide to stick with the class i would you know recommend that you do everything that you were talking about doing you know, and just you know keep up with the homework that you're currently at and you know go back [S4: mhm ] and do some of the old stuff that you're a little fuzzy on cuz you're, you're still on the_ coasting on the, joys of being here <SS LAUGH>
S4: yeah, but um and then the other question i had since you uh you were a literature teacher? [S2: uhuh ] what is the best way to_ cuz like, like at the end of my English class you know he always asks does anybody have any questions on the literature, [S2: mhm ] and i just look at him like well what do you mean you know i just, like i've always_ how do_ like i always kinda just read to read but how do i get something out of the <S4 LAUGH> literature. if you know what i'm saying.
S2: um, well i mean there's lots of different things that you can ask questions about. and it's gonna [S4: uhuh ] be- depend on your, you know you could ask about plot like what did it mean that something happened, do you think? you know what was the author trying to say? often when i'm teaching writing, and i_ if i'm doing um English one-twenty-four which is writing about literature i will ask_ you know the students will really sort of work on you know novels as_ and poetry and essays as arguments you know [S4: mhm ] what's_ like give me an example of a book that you read. 
S4: um like we're currently reading The Stranger. 
S2: okay. okay so you got Meraud or Mersault or whatever his name is Mersault [S4: yes it's about that. ] Mersault right yes and he's killed his mother but he seems to be sort of a naive simpleton right? we're supposed to sort of
S4: yeah yeah [S2: okay so i i've ] no he didn't kill his mother he killed, [S2: he killed someone, it's been a while. i think i read that when i was in college so ] did he kill his mother? no he killed he killed a_ in the end no he killed an Arab he he killed an Arab and [S2: okay he killed an Arab, mhm ] because uh, his friend had a problem with him, [S2: uhuh ] like they got into a fight and this friend, it was his friend's like lover's brother or something and so, he beat up his lover and the brother [S4: okay ] came to kick his friend's ass and 
S2: mkay, what you might want to do in that book i mean it's written sort of in a stream-of-consciousness style [S4: yeah ] so it's [S4: i think so ] kind of you_ we're inside his head. [S4: yeah ] and i guess you know one question that you might want to ask is you_ i mean there's a whole bunch of questions you can ask i remember the mother for some reason he has like sort of a weird relationship with his mother maybe? [S4: maybe i don't know ] okay um but you know i would just, you know what does it mean that the only point of view of the story that we, we see is Mersault's? like you know can we figure out what else is happening in the book? does the narrator give us any other clues? how do we find out about the murder? [S4: mhm ] is he remorseful about this murder? [S4: i'm not sure i remember ] if not why? what's Camus trying to say? that kinda stuff like i_ [S4: uhuh ] as a teacher i would always sort of ask, those kinds of questions and i guess you know for something like like um, Camus it's a pretty difficult book you could just ask a plot question i'm just confused about what happened here? [S4: mhm ] um, [S4: like like i don't know i was just like (xx) real quick ] a symbolism question what do you think you know 
S4: i don't know he said like you know like read and take notes but how do you take notes <LAUGH> on literature? 
S2: well, there's a lot of different levels on which you can understand literature right? there's sort of the basic plot, [S4: uhuh ] right? 
S4: right 
S2: what happens to who where when why the journalistic kinda you know that's like the main-frame stuff and i think with novels that are written in stream-of-consciousness kind of style sometimes the plot can get kinda, at lost especially if you're, cuz i- if you're listening to the story from a deranged person's perspective which you kinda are. [S4: mhm ] you know? um, and then um, then what? um you could also you could ask about character development like you can sorta do a psychological analyses of the characters who are these people? do i like them? are they like me? are they not like me? [S4: mhm ] um i did a lot of political criticism like i often just was sort of interested in you know how was community defined in books i mean there's lots of different themes thematic things, what is this book saying? C- Camus is just_ it's been so long it's just not one of the ones that i would be, real familiar with but like if it was something like Toni Morrison, [S4: mhm ] what is the writer saying about this community? [S4: mhm ] you know do the characters come together? do they not come together? you know am i making sense? [S4: yeah i think so ] i'm kinda being vague. Camus is not my strong, point you know 
S4: i know well i mean like we read like you know Light in Au- [S2: oh Light, o- Faulkner okay ] Light in August or we read uh you know A Farewell to Arms or
S2: oh oh oh oh oh okay good i th- that's_ (i'm excited) i've like read_ books i've read <SS LAUGH> Faulkner and that's the one with the [S4: yeah yeah yeah ] with um the pregnant woman walking through town and Joe Christmas and all this stuff? [S4: yeah ] okay so you have all this, this Christ imagery going on in the novel what's happening [S4: uhuh ] here? are these people good Christians? right that the pregn- she's like nine months pregnant all the imagery she's slow (xx) it's been like ten fifteen years since i read these books, [S4: mhm ] but you know, are these people waiting for something? they kind of are you got your Christmas you got this very pregnant woman waiting to give birth what are they waiting for? is there a sense of hope here? you know just_ these are just the questions that i'm remembering from the book but_ and and just questions of imagery what's he doing with the idea of pregnancy in this book? what's happening with children? i think there was lot of orphans a lot of neglected children in the book 
S4: so you pretty much gotta question everything.
S2: (anything) well whatever interests you [S4: okay ] you know whatever you know just 
S4: well yeah cuz i just i normally just read the book and like i kinda like i understand what the author 
S2: i'm just showing you how to ask questions [S4: yeah ] i'm not telling you what questions to ask. 
S4: cool right cuz like i understand what the author is like trying to say, [S2: uhuh ] but i don't necessarily, like you know i'll be like i'll read a book i'll be like oh okay like you know the Grapes of Wrath [S2: mhm ] like i understood you know the whole (biplane everything_) what was going on but like some of the stuff i would've never thought to,
S2: well and you can't think of everything i mean [S4: right ] i don't think you would be the, <LAUGH> [S4: well right that would be ] it would be very impressive but that's one reason why you talk about it with other people is people are gonna have different perceptions? [S4: mhm ] you know? um and with the Grapes of Wrath there's, you know a lot of Christ imagery as well um, and one of the nice things about that book is it's a fair- it's fairly obvious imagery they kinda, hit you over the head with it i remember the turtle crossing the road there [S4: mhm ] i haven't you know i haven't read that book since i was like in tenth grade or something [S4: mhm ] but that poor little turtle it takes him like ten chapters to you know how is that like the Joads you know that struggle that kind [S4: uhuh ] of stuff. [S4: right ] um in Grapes of Wrath it's kinda spelled out in something like Faulkner it might be a little more subtle. but any question that you would feel like asking just you're just kinda like that's a weird thing for the writer to do what's this turtle doing in the book? [S4: uhuh ] i mean that's that's a question, it doesn't need to be a very sophisticated you know it seems to me that the turtle is representing the Joads' struggle to achieve middle-class stability it doesn't need to be something like that [S4: uhuh ] it just can be a question [S4: okay ] about, i noticed the writer keeps referring to the moon, [S4: mhm ] you know what's happening with um... pregnancy or expectancy in Light in August? what are these people waiting for? um, i'm just trying to this is just [S4: right no yeah i know, i yeah i i understand okay that helps. ] weird random things but just any any question that interests you it's not really about there's not like right questions and wrong questions it's 
S4: right no yeah no i i know i just [S2: yeah but it's ] it was just the whole idea of like questions itself cuz i don't know, [S2: yeah but ] like i read literature and then you know like we had to write about it, [S2: mhm ] for the you know for one of the [S2: for the test ] essay topics and it was just like, it was kinda jumbled but <LAUGH> you know i just wanted to
S2: yeah, i think that it's good practice to just kinda write questions in a book i always mark my books i mean it's a shame if you plan on selling them back, you know right [S4: uhuh ] but i always write in my books and keep them as long as i want, but you just think about the different characters you know if somebody strikes you as weird you know, those are always good starting points you know cuz initially you're saying wow that's weird you know you can't really write a whole essay on on that, <S4 LAUGH> but then you can begin to_ and you know so you say okay that's weird and then you're like why is that weird? [S4: uhuh ] (that's) strange then you sorta start doing description and then you're like huh i wonder why the author would do that what's going_ how is this character connected to, and that_ those kinda end up being essay questions often how is this character connected to this event or connected to this character or, [S4: mhm ] you know... i noticed you know every time you know moon imagery appears in this book and you can trace those moments and see if something's happening with the plot you know, [S4: okay ] i don't know, 
S4: yeah no but that but that that's helpful. 
S2: you can ev- you can go to his office hours as well and just kind of let him know that you're having a hard time asking questions too and, [S4: okay ] certainly do you have an essay due at the end of the class?
S4: um, no not really [S2: just exams ] the only essays we really have are just exams. like we do like some in-class stuff [S2: mhm ] but it's really just to see that we're reading.
S2: yeah and i think if you're feeling as though you know because you haven't had Intro Comp yet, um you really, are feeling anxious about that i would just go talk to him a little bit about you know your concern about the exam cuz you felt kinda at a loss for the last one and, [S4: mhm ] you know you haven't had Intro Comp yet you're a first-semester freshman and let him know that. [S4: okay ] what kinds of tips does he have for keeping your thoughts organized during, you know an hour-and-a-half-long exam or an hour-long exam, [S4: right ] and you know, how does he ask questions when he reads cuz i thin- i suspect he's a fairly different style than me i don't know him well but i'm just i think i'm a little more effusive all over the map than he is like, [S4: okay ] cuz when i teach Intro Comp i'm always just concerned of what questions the students have cuz it's their papers it's their ideas i mean i don't really wanna hear my own thoughts parroted back to me i want you to be able to like tell me what you think [S4: right right ] damnit kind of thing <LAUGH> um, and why, back it up, um, but you should take Intro Comp next semester. 
S4: yeah i know i plan to. <SS LAUGH> i plan to. okay. yeah so that's all the questions i had really.
S2: okay and it's a lot of questions and it's good to see you still kinda i mean i think it's it's you've learned a lot this semester i think
S4: yeah <SS LAUGH> yeah
S2: and you know it's it's hard work to to do real well here i think... but it's good too because if you can learn this stuff then you can build on it and you know and it would be_ and i've seen people not do so well in pre-calc and then do perfectly well in calc. [S4: mhm ] usually for the reasons that you've described though i mean i think if you're afraid of math or you dislike it or you're you know just, not interested not good at it you're not gonna get better but if it was something where you know the first six weeks of the term you're just kinda like hm hm hm hm hm this is fun and then you just kinda realize that you hadn't been doing the work, [S4: mhm ] and you started doing it and now you're understanding the stuff, there's absolutely no reason why when you go into calculus, [S4: right ] you wouldn't already be you know doing that work from the very beginning. and subsequently do very well and calculus will grade the homework the group work at least there's no group work in calc-in pre-calculus? okay that's good. 
S4: oh yeah no there is group work there is group work.
S2: so you have that grade as well. 
S4: yeah
S2: which is good. i hope? group wo- [S4: huh? ] group work's going well?
S4: oh yeah i got i got an A-minus in that.
S2: alright well you know you just need that averaged in with those [S4: yeah ] two test grades there. <LAUGH> it'll help 
S4: but um okay. well thank you very much
S2: thanks John [S4: (this is) ] sorry i forgot your name my short-term memory failed me
S4: oh no don't worry about it it's cool do i have to like fill this out or something?
S2: yeah you need to fill it out [S4: (mm) ] or else they can't use it. here's a pen.
S2: okay so i guess you just give that, to her on your way out and hang on to the little, study strategies sheet [S4: <LAUGH> thank you ] and i hope to see you, smiling <S4 LAUGH> come the second week of December. 
S4: yeah i hope to see me smiling too. <LAUGH>
S2: i hope you do i think i think you can.
S4: yeah. well thank you very much.
S2: okay you're welcome. 
S2: i told her today would be busy cuz it was the last day before drop-add so
S5: okay well i'm not here for a drop-add class [S2: yay ] i was, i was gonna be, i was gonna be but i did better than i thought i would on my midterm 
S2: good girl i'm psyched i think you're my fourth student of the day not to be dropping a class. <LAUGH> what's your name?
S5: Celeste [S2: Celeste okay i talked to you ] i came in here before, for when i was talking about sociology, 
S2: uhuh okay yeah, 
S5: but i brought that up 
S2: i knew you looked familiar i forgot your name i'm tired so i thought i'd just ask, okay 
S5: my grade came up though
S2: good girl E-L-I is English Language Institute
S5: oh i was um coming to ask about C-S-P classes, [S2: mhm ] like what exactly are those? cuz i don't know 
S2: well what year are you fresh- are you a freshman? [S5: yeah ] okay, um there's C-S-P one-hundred which off- which is a study-skills kind of class, [S5: mm i don't want to take one of those ] that's like intro to college i don't even know if they offer that in the winter term that's sort of an intro to college fall term (xx) 
S5: no i wanted like to try C-S-P Math 
S2: C-S-P sections? are you in C-S-P?
S5: well i joined it but i never did go to my academic advisor ever, <LAUGH>
S2: okay but [S5: ever ] you're you're you're technically in the C-S-P program. [S5: right ] i don't think you need to i mean they'd like you to go to them because, you're signing up for their program they'd like to make sure you're doing okay, um, they have special C-S-P sections basically and they're not really any different_ it's the twelfth. [S5: hm ] and that's pretty much it, unless you want more information on what_ on their study_ and then you can give them your address. [S5: nah, thanks ] um but the way the C-S-P sections work is i think math chemistry Spanish but not French or German from what i can gather, and English. there're special C-S-P sections for each
S5: what's the difference between C-S-P Math and regular math?
S2: the only difference is that C-S-P Math meets one time a week more often, and there's, more emphasis on quizzes and homeworks and sort of testing you on stuff as you're doing it... so that, there's more support there's more academic support cuz you're getting more academic feedback more often, and as a C-S-P student or C-S-P affiliate whether you're actually taking any C-S-P courses or not you can have um free tutoring and so many students join C-S-P for that. because especially if they're pre-med or they're taking (like history and math) 
S5: but they learn the same things. 
S2: of course. yes. actually do i have i have a C-S-P ooh look at this i have a C-S-P flyer with M- a note from Manda on it, but we'll ignore the note from Manda, cuz i know she won't be right back. um but they just tell you the courses, intensive course selections, they have course sections offered in bio chem econ English math physics and Spanish. and you have a regular assigned advisor who you're supposed to meet with on a regular basis, <LAUGH> um
S5: if you don't what happens? nothing? 
S2: but that's it, no nothing, nothing really, i mean i think they might send you an email saying Celeste where are you you know we_ i mean they prefer_ who is your C-S-P advisor? 
S5: Elvira Jackson
S2: i mean if you wanna meet with another C-S-P advisor you could just switch advisors or you could just see somebody in L-S-and-A it's you know we're all pretty_ we share 
S5: i've never met her. 
S2: well you might wanna meet her before you blow her off. <LAUGH> you know, she's pretty nice but i know from my end like if a student doesn't really care for me i'd rather they not have to suffer by you know seeing me all the time it's better if they just go find somebody they do like and see them, so you're getting people_ you know you're getting your questions answered. um, but the only the only difference between C-S-P sections and non-C-S-P sections is that, i know in math and chemistry the C-S-P sections meet more often. they tend to be smaller, and there's more homework more quizzes because you're getting, graded assessed, more regularly so there's less, it's it's a it's a more intensive support situation so there's less opportunity to kind of be hm hm hm hm hm wonder how i'm doing in the class don't really know haven't gotten any feedback you're getting a lot of feedback in C-S-P. [S5: mhm ] so what? you're thinking about taking a C-S-P Math or?
S5: i'm trying to figure out what i wanna take cuz i don't know what i wanna take next semester [S2: mhm ] cuz i don't know what my major's gonna be cuz i don't have any clues so 
S2: well you're just a freshman you've been here for not even three months so come on 
S5: yeah but a lot of people have clues [S2: well they say they do ] already like i'm majoring in English cuz i wanna be a lawyer women's studies, uh yadda yadda yadda. 
S2: you just watch and see people will change. what do you like? 
S5: i like writing.
S2: well you might wanna major in English cuz you 
S5: that changed when i got up here. <LAUGH>
S2: what that changed when you got up here? [S5: yeah ] are you taking Intro Comp now and you're not enjoying that particular class or you're not enjoying (writing?) 
S5: well i mean i like creative writing i don't_ well i did like English actually though senior year i really liked my English class.
S2: okay and you_ are you_ you're not enjoying Intro Comp this semester? [S5: at all ] is it, and i guess what i'd like you to sort of step back a minute and analyze are you not enjoying it because of the teacher? 
S5: no she's really nice. 
S2: mkay why aren- you know are you not enjoying it? because it's difficult and they're sort of upping the ante and you're having to do a lot of revision and sort of thinking about why you're saying what you're saying and?
S5: it could be the Intro to Comp class that i'm taking cuz it's all history stuff.
S2: oh you're taking a writing of history?
S5: like yeah you have to write 
S2: it's history one ninety-five?
S5: i don't know, <LAUGH>
S2: it's your class like <LAUGH>
S5: i know all you do in there is write about_ somebody writes about_ somebody writes a history essay and then i, [S2: mhm, you critique it ] write a essay about them 
S2: yeah it is a writing of history. 
S5: and what i think and, [S2: uhuh ] i don't like that.
S2: so it's mostly the topic that you're not really enjoying the topic of that class. 
S5: it may be the topic. [S2: hm ] then again i don't know how strong my essay skills are anyway so 
S2: well the nice thing about being in college_ i know it's nice and also tormenting_ is no matter how good you are, you can always be better, you're [S5: yeah ] beginning <LAUGH> to learn that um, so i suspect that you_ it's not that you don't have strong skills, but that it's, the level of expectation gets higher and if you do well the teacher's still gonna think of other, things that you can do. but you're doing okay in the class? 
S5: yeah
S2: you're just not enamored with it 
S5: i'm getting like, i'm not doing good, i'm getting like a B-minus
S2: more than respectable. [S5: i don't know ] and nice thing with the writing classes is you know the grade can go up as the semester ends if you improve and, adapt your_ you might wanna take a creative writing class next semester [S5: i was thinking about that. ] you like creative writing? like English two twenty-three it would be
S5: then i was thinking it's hard to write good stuff all the time.
S2: that's true. <SS LAUGH>
S5: so then if i did that and i just wrote something and they hated it then i'd do bad you know
S2: not necessarily, [S5: (xx) that ] that's a lot of pressure to put on yourself to have everything be perfect all the time...
S5: mm, so i don't know. and then i don't know how good i am at creative writing either.
S2: well if you took for example introduction to creative writing, that's a class_ it's not for people who are majoring in creative writing it's just a class for it's a freshman-sophomore-level class for people who are interested in learning more about creative writing. so it's not really designed for people who already have undergraduate degrees in creative writing and have published novels and that kind of thing. it's a class for people like yourself who kind of, are thinking you might enjoy this. [S5: mhm ] <LAUGH> and it's a class a lot of people who are science majors who wanna do something fun, will take it for fun um, but [S5: now (it's) ] you know i think it it won't be a fun class for you if you feel like every single thing you have to write everybody's gotta go oh my god Celeste it's just beautiful. <LAUGH>
S5: no what i mean it's gotta be something, and then it depends on the teacher and [S2: absolutely, absolutely, mhm ] what the teacher thinks is good, cuz like one teacher will look at my stuff and i love it Celeste [S2: right ] and another teacher no Celeste it's so cliche. 
S2: well and generally i would think at the U-of at U-of-M what you're gonna get is they'll find something they like about your writing and then they'll find a couple of things you might wanna do differently or try differently i mean that's pretty much, how people will respond and you have peer response, other students respond, [S5: mhm ] most people enjoy the creative writing classes here they don't_ it doesn't you know really. 
S5: how many credits is it?
S2: three. 
S5: three, did they send out like a little course guide like what you had in orientation? 
S2: no it's only online. [S5: oh ] they should have sent you or should be sending you very very soon, this thing. like the first-year seminar deals? just for freshmen?
S5: no i didn't get that 
S2: yeah i ha- you know what? we here in Academic Advising have not gotten these so, <S5 LAUGH> that's why i'm like you know this is from the fall and i have no computer here my computer died. [S5: oh ] actually it never worked, [S5: <S5 LAUGH> okay ] um they went and took it away so i can't look anything up on the screen, but all the courses are online now. and so have you_ are you comfortable using the computer and stuff or 
S5: not really but, <S2 LAUGH> i guess i'll have to be 
S2: <LAUGH> you're gonna have to learn. um i will probably you know they're taping me today um so i feel kind of married to hanging out over here, [S5: hm ] um as CRISP starts i'm probably gonna camp out in the computing cent- in the library so i can use the_ what?
S5: what's CRISP? 
S2: what's CRISP?
S5: i don't know what that is <LAUGH>
S2: well you know when you registered for classes you came w- was_ did you work with Erica Major? hm
S5: who?
S2: Erica?
S5: who's Erica?
S2: she was the C-S-P peer advisor, she has a lot of energy. if you worked with her you'd know it. she's like 
S5: does she like toothpaste?
S2: does she like toothpaste? <S5 LAUGH> i'm sure she uses toothpaste. 
S5: <LAUGH> well it was, one really bubbly person
S2: she is very bubbly she has kind of um, shoulder-
S5: oh no as a matter of fact i didn't have a C-S-P, [S2: oh you ca- okay ] advisor for that cuz i joined it after i got here 
S2: who is your advisor? 
S5: now? 
S2: yeah
S5: Elvira Jackson
S2: okay who was your advisor when you came for orientation?
S5: some girl that liked toothpaste.
S2: okay so you're just tired. <S5 LAUGH> you came in you were exhausted for orientation, but you know you met with an advisor, and you talked 
S5: oh you talking about an advisor. [S2: yeah ] okay now i know.
S2: well Erica was a peer advisor but like she was very energetic. 
S5: i'm thinking of the lady who helped us, when we picked out our classes [S2: yeah that's ] she looked over them and said no those are horrible but the first guy i saw was Jack
S2: Jack Thompson. [S5: Thompson ] like fifty years old African-American guy. okay. [S5: Jack Thompson. ] he's lovely. <S5 LAUGH> well you should go and see him, he's one of my favorite people. he, right he met with you and you talked about classes, and then he sent you on your way. 
S5: he sent me to some other girl. 
S2: he said goodbye Celeste it was really nice meeting you you went down to the computing center remember? 
S5: yeah
S2: that's when you CRISPed. [S5: oh ] and you had to call up on the telephone, 
S5: yeah i remember that 
S2: and punch in all those damn numbers. ch ch ch ch (xx) ch ch ch ch ch, and then you call (xx) on the screen, so what you're gonna need to do when your CRISP date comes you probably had an email about [S5: yeah ] this you're probably CRISPing [S5: um ] toward the middle of December, a_ you're a f- 
S5: December, tenth i think. 
S2: ninth tenth eleventh? is okay so you're gonna CRISP December tenth, and (you get a) date and a time to register for classes and you're probably gonna wanna register for classes right around the time that you, the earliest time you possibly can because it's the second-to-last CRISP date so you're gonna wanna get what you can get. 
S5: really? [S2: uhuh ] why (am I) 
S2: cuz you're a freshman cuz the seniors go first and then the juniors [S5: oh ] and then the sophomores and then the freshmen. 
S5: i have a question about that too. 
S2: so for freshmen you're actually doing better. 
S5: so what time do i go?
S2: they told it to you in the email did you save your email?
S5: yeah it said the tenth or the ninth, after ten. 
S2: right so that's 
S5: anytime 
S2: when you can do it anytime 
S5: during the day? 
S2: after ten but you 
S5: okay i wanna get there 
S2: would probably wanna do it close to ten. <LAUGH> okay? 
S5: yeah so i can get a computer.
S2: and so what you wanna do is go on the computer and look around so you like it sounds like you like creative writing. i would, be decadent you know see if you can get (xx) 
S5: but i mean if i had majored or something in creative writing [S2: mhm ] what job would i get? what would i be?
S2: anything you wanted to be. probably i mean you'd have really good writing skills, um, i mean what do you want to do? do you have any idea? [S5: no ] no you mean, the thing with an under- a college degree, that a lot of freshmen don't really have a good handle on and people are like well i want to g- i wanna be in business i wanna go to the Business School. most people are gonna go into business, and this is just like, me being older. you can major in history of art and you know go into the business world with minimal problems. <LAUGH> major in linguistics major in writing, you know not really a difficulty what they're looking for i- is enthusiastic people they want good writing skills if you major in writing, we know you'd have it. um, if you liked it, you know so you should go with what you like, what you do well in, if you're you know, what else
S5: well how do you get to be a professor? i was thinking cuz i like [S2: uhuh ] teaching <LAUGH>
S2: yeah okay so it's a couple of different options. okay i mean it depends on a professor of what, a professor of creative writing? [S5: well maybe ] okay well if you wanted to be a professor of 
S5: or maybe of English or something 
S2: creative writing, there's two different things for creative writing versus English if you wanted to be a professor of creative writing you would after you got your undergraduate degree you could apply for a fine arts degree a Masters of Fine Arts, and you could go study writing and you would specialize probably in poetry or fiction, for two years it's a two-year, graduate degree. and th- U-of-M has one of the best writing programs in the country so, i don't know it could be cool you'd be working with a graduate student if you took this English two twenty-three class but it's a very (you know) prestigious program, it should be pretty good writers, hopefully pretty good teachers too, [S5: yeah ] um but two-year degree after college (you'd) have a Masters of Fine Arts and that would qualify you to teach creative writing at community colleges and universities, across you know the country, um if you wanted to teach um to be a professor of English, you would have to get a P- and i have a PhD in English actually, you would have to do a PhD in English which is a longer degree that's about a five-year degree, [S5: okay so i would go ] and you would write a dissertation you'd write in academic books you'd be writing, [S5: (xx) (bad) ] about literature rather than writing literature. does that make sense? that's a big difference?
S5: hm?
S2: if you're doing creative writing you're writing, fiction or poetry you're [S5: yeah ] writing creatively, for a PhD in English you're writing about literature. [S5: mhm ] other people's literature. and then if you're interested in teaching high school you would probably wanna get teaching certification, [S5: no ] right well i'm just, <S5 LAUGH> if you're not interested in teaching high school you would not do that.
S5: but don't professors get paid a lot more?
S2: um no actually they don't.
S5: they don't?
S2: uh'uh, they just work with older students.
S5: no way
S2: starting salary for a professor is probably about the same as starting salary for a high school teacher, [S5: really? ] high school teachers are unionized and professors aren't.
S5: really? 
S2: yeah mhm
S5: shoot that just ruined my (xx) 
S2: you know a lot of it's gonna be just about your your your intellectual interests and where you want to spend your time. i mean if you, you know don't like working with elementary-school-aged children then you know you shouldn't teach ele- we shouldn't let you near 'em <LAUGH> you know you shouldn't teach them. if like and i always feel like for high school i like high-school-aged students, i like them in groups of like eight or fewer, i get kinda when there's like forty fifteen-year-olds i just kinda, get a little impatient with them i'm like come on you guys you know i just_ it's just not a personal strength of mine i just i get tired of them you know it's like come on knock it off, um i'm good with small amounts of kids like that but um college students are you know are are much easier because they wanna be there you know, [S5: yeah ] if you don't wanna be in my class fine you know, <LAUGH> drop it take another one. um 
S5: like how much do they get paid?
S2: um it depends um English professors probably it depends on the school, probably teaching positions start in the in the low thirties, mid-thirties, [S5: oh ] and then for tenured faculty you know they make, fifty sixty seventy thousand a year depending on, how high up you know they are and how valued they are by the institution. medical school professors get paid the most money. <LAUGH>
S5: how much do they get paid? well then again they're medical school professors. 
S2: you got it, yeah you got it i'm just saying there's th- the pecking order exists in the university as well. but you know what? whether you teach English in a college or not, you'll make enough money to be happy i mean, i make enough money to be, comfortable 
S5: but you're tenured or whatever right?
S2: i'm not tenured no i'm an academic advisor. 
S5: what is tenure? i don't know what that is. <LAUGH>
S2: well when you go up for a job like let's say you're looking for an academic job and you're just a freshman you're getting way ahead of yourself. <S5 LAUGH> you're looking for an academic job right, and um, you get a job and you're hired as an assistant professor. usually you're an assistant professor for six years. aft- and you have to write a couple of books in that time if you get good teaching evaluations and you have to basically perform well. if you perform well and they like everything that you've done you go up you you can get tenure, and when you get tenure you_ you're given the title associate professor and tenure and tenure is essentially job security. they've decided after six years you've proved yourself they like you you know at this point in order to get fired you have to do something really awful. [S5: hm ] you know that kind of thing. um so it's job security is what it is. and then if you continue to publish and be professionally active as an associate professor after a couple of years you'll get promoted to full professor. and you should watch this cuz if you look at the university_ if you look at your little L-S-and-A bulletin and you look under_ they they list all the professors, they do this actually why don't we do this? biology's a great example. and you look under the full professors associate professors assistant professors etcetera what you'll see is that the- there're not very many female full professors cuz women've only been being hired like within the last ten fifteen years or so, so that's always a fun thing to do, so you got Sally Allen i'm sorry i'm being a little feminist ch ch ch ch ch ch ch Kathryn Tosney they have two female full professors of biology and, [S5: Deborah ] three yeah they've got Deborah, um Beverly and Priscilla three associates, and then you got Lisa Janine Laura you know three assistants... and i don't know if that name Indian name is male or female i think it's a female actually i like_ i think she's she's students like her one two three female, you know but anyway it's just, women are just now moving into the ranks, so the timing's good. English is more of a (mix) it's more, i don't know why more women go [S5: hm ] into it, but anyway for next semester in terms of your own happiness, you're thinking, English. and possibly math? 
S5: and then i was thinking, maybe i could be an engineer. [S2: you're just ] everybody [S2: (did you) ] wants to be an engineer. <LAUGH>
S2: okay but now you're thinking just money and how m- how can you make_ i mean do you like 
S5: yes i want to make money i wanna make money but i wanna do something i like <LAUGH>
S2: alright well let me just tell you this, <S5 LAUGH> if you go to U-of-M and you're a good student and you do well, and you go to Career Planning and Placement and you talk to alumni and you begin looking for a job your junior year of college you will not be hungry girl, you'll_ <S5 LAUGH> you will be just fine. so if you like engineering if you like math if you like science if you're good in (xx) 
S5: i'm not sure yet.
S2: did you like
S5: i haven't taken science while i was here or math while i was here. 
S2: what are you taking? are you tak- we know you're taking the writing of history okay.
S5: i'm taking Intro to Comp sociology, i like sociology, [S2: okay ] um this U-C class this is basically a political science class, [S2: mhm ] and French. and i like French. 
S2: and what French are you in?
S5: French one-oh-one that's probably why i like it. 
S2: okay so next semester you'll be, <S5 LAUGH> oh that's good 
S5: i'll probably hate it then. <S5 LAUGH>
S2: no tha- no no no no no if you like it now you'll keep liking it, people who 
S5: well no cuz it gets harder next semester cuz i remember [S2: well you could get mo- ] like second-year French in tenth grade i hated it.
S2: mhm you get more proficient though i mean you develop skills as you go along there, so maybe okay so that sounds like you might want to take a mathematics class next semester, do you remember what math you placed into? 
S5: yes i do. <LAUGH> one-oh-five.
S2: okay well then i would take that one. to give you a sense of of how that goes, and you need to remember Celeste that you have all of this year and all of next year to explore. you don't have to be in a rush you can just kinda be like i'm gonna take creative writing i'm gonna take math, the French you gotta keep going with unless [S5: oh yeah ] you wanna start another language. so you know but really just you should take things that you like, things that might be interesting to you, and if you_ cuz people graduate from U-of-M with degrees in history and sociology and anthropology and English and, they get jobs
S5: but i heard that people that get, like degrees in English just become teachers and that's it
S2: that's not necessarily true, [S5: mm ] actually people who get degrees in English can go on and do whatever they want. um, a friend of mine who has a degree in English is a vice president of a banking corporation, she was an undergraduate in English, there's lots of_ you can go to business school you can go to law school, [S5: mhm ] you can go work [S5: (xx) ] for a company with a degree in English 
S5: well, i think i like English 
S2: you can go into [S5: i mean business ] publications... 
S5: then i was thinking it would be interesting to take like a film class or something like that.
S2: okay so it's sounding like good diversity creative writing math, film okay
S5: but see i don't wanna take a whole bunch of, fun classes and nothing... i don't know 
S2: nothing not-fun? i don't quite understand
S5: <LAUGH> well yeah basically, i mean everybody comes up here and they're taking EECS and they're taking, 
S2: honey you wanna take EECS you're welcome to to take EECS. 
S5: <LAUGH> no i heard about that i don't want EECS. and i don't know anything about computers anyways i'm so computer illiterate.
S2: i think you need_ i think you're at a point in your life right now where you need to explore, and i think [S5: yeah ] it's fine for you to take_ i mean cuz you could major in film and video studies, you know go work for a film i- in the film industry there's lots of jobs in it i mean there's_ that's what's kinda scary is really you're sort of in a position in your life where all the doors are open, nothing's closed on you yet and um i wouldn't... i wouldn't try to narrow your options too much right now if you are a junior and you still sound like this, then we try to put the screws to you a little bit more <S5 LAUGH> like okay what do you like? but for now, i think exploring is good. so maybe 
S5: but like what if i keep exploring and i wanna go to the Business School and i'm already a sophomore [S2: mhm ] and
S2: well in the Business School i mean and that's actually that is a good question because do you wanna go to the Business School is that an option that you'd like?
S5: i don't know. 
S2: because if it is the Business School has some very specific prerequisites that you need to get [S5: (xx) (semester) ] through by fall of next year. [S5: yeah ] and so that changes things immensely.
S5: <SIGH> what all are their prerequisites? 
S2: you need calc, so Math one-fifteen, [S5: shoot ] Econ one-oh-one and one-oh-two Intro Comp you have, and Accounting two-seventy one. so you'd need_ i mean that really kind of very very much all of a sudden, shapes up your curriculum quite differently and then you'd probably be taking, [S5: summer ] economics and pre-calc this semester, coming up. [S5: hm ] if that's what you wanna do.
S5: but see i don't know what i wanna do.
S2: right i think if you don't, and can i be a little directive? <S5 LAUGH> i'm gonna be a little directive
S5: sure go ahead
S2: i think if you don't know what you wanna do chances are the Business School is not what you wanna do because the Business School's not gonna let you explore that much. [S5: ooh ] you know it's very much sort of i love finance or i w- you know, i want marketing and, with you i get the sense that you like writing you like social sciences you got a number of interests, you could go a lot of different directions you can always take Business School courses as an L-S-and-A student so you're not_ again you're not closing that door. 
S5: but I won't be able to graduate from that school. 
S2: no but you'll be able to graduate from you know the University of Michigan's College of Libr- Liberal Arts and Sciences. [S5: eh ] we're no_ we're not chopped liver 
S5: no you're not <S2 LAUGH> hm... i was thinking 
S2: uhuh i can see that you have been that's good i'm glad. <S5 LAUGH>
S5: why don't i just get like a regular job? just a regular normal job, like a little business job and wear my little business suits [S2: uhuh ] and go to my little firm or wherever i work. 
S2: and most people who graduate from U-of-M do that. i mean [S5: ah ] what you need to be aware of just cuz i know it's really scary when you're a freshman and, so much out there is that we have incredible alumni there are people who, are corporate executives who are U-M alumni_ <ADDRESSES PASSERBY S2> hey there_ who want nothing more than to talk to you, you can get internships with them you can get, you know, information on people who are coming through campus interviewing through Career Planning and Placement there's so much good stuff out there that you know by basically, i think your sophomore year is probably a better time to kinda get started on that but, you know i'm telling you you can be a women's studies and religion dual concentrator and get a fantastic job. you [S5: in what? ] should study what you love because_ doing whatever you want. the way that liberal arts works, and i'm sure Jeff talked about this at great lengths cuz it's one of his 
S5: i don't remember 
S2: near-and-dear-to-his-heart things, i kn- you sound like you were a little overwhelmed for orientation but um, what liberal arts_ whatever you major in it's tr- it's gonna train you to write well, just think about the different ways that people can solve problems, to work with groups of people, to be a creative problem solver to think flexibly, just really good people skills. and businesses wanna train you to do the specific things they're gonna ask you to do you can't predict whether you're gonna be working in the pharmaceutical industry or on Wall Street or for a clothing retailer or anything like that. um i promise you if you come by my office in Angell Hall i can show you um, Career Planning and Placement's list of who comes through looking to hire people and what they're looking for. [S5: like ] and they're looking for all majors they don't care, they wanna know that you're_ they wanna feel like comfortable with you that you're a good match that they like you and that you're a good student so you wanna have good grades more than, you know any parti- there's not a magic major. if there were a magic major everybody would do it. [S5: (i would do it) ] so for s- what?
S5: i would do it.
S2: i know i would too. but there's only really what's right for you. and right now because you're eighteen and you're just arrived, <S5 LAUGH> you're not sure yet. and so therefore you have to take your your own educational goal very seriously, and explore check out different things and kinda go, that was an experience i can pass on next time i don't wanna do more of that or you know i like sociology i'll take more of that or, i liked math i even find it you know i found it really kind of interesting i like the group work i wanna go on in that.
S5: who would i, like [S2: you can major in anything. ] talk to for like an internship for over the summer or something like that?
S2: um you would talk to Career Planning and Placement, ch ch ch and they will have more of these i'm gonna show you this and then i'll_ i can't give it to you right now cuz i only have one in this office but... they have lots of cool stuff on internships. um basically you kno- and you missed the two in the fall but they'll have it again [S5: oh ] in the winter so don't worry but if you're looking for_ and this is what i'm saying. <S5 LAUGH> and you can major in whatever your little heart desires and if you're in touch with the right people and you're like hi. <S2 LAUGH> this is who i am, you should be in great shape. if you wanna hear about internships now at a_ you know without going to this big meeting you can just sign up for FORUM this is what i said i would show you if you came by my office, FORUM is For Online Recruiting at U-of-M, and it's simply um, a list of organizations that come through to interview students and they interview everybody. and so if they love you they love you you know and if it's not a good match it's not a good match and you could think about them too i don't wanna work for them i might love to work for them. um and it's just a good way of you to sort of figure out what you wanna do this is a computerized bidding session and you can just go to Career Planning and Placement it's on the third floor, of C-P-and-P oh i'm sorry it's on the third floor of the S- S-A-B building. Student Activities Building? [S5: mhm ] and you can just sign up and join and they will have another one of these sessions at the end of January i know they will. <LAUGH> you get into February
S5: and i guess all different kinda places ask for students or
S2: mhm mostly corporate stuff. the government has some stuff as well, but um... there's not gonna be_ they don't have as much money to send people, around, you know but if you like to write you might wanna to go to this Careers in Print session. what you can do with a you know, [S5: no this isn't my paper ] and that's just in Career Planning and Placement. we can probably rip a little corner off of there i can give you, <TEARS PAPER> a little corner of mine there you go, i mean i don't know if that's interesting to you and there was a s- um, the Careers in Print it's on the_ it's at Tuesday the seventeenth at five o'clock at Career Planning and Placement, i don't know if that's_ you know that's just the most obvious thing that's coming up... <S2 LAUGH> but just as you can see as you spend four years here hon we've got, there's so many resources here, and you can major in anthropology or mathematics or whatever you want. [S5: okay ] scary i know but
S5: overwhelming not scary 
S2: a little well yeah so for_ but for next semester, it sounds like you want to take writing, [S5: i think math ] you wanna take math, maybe film, maybe a natural science cuz you haven't had any of that here? 
S5: yeah... maybe i'll take biology or something.
S2: yeah. i don't see why, i mean, in something fun. you know it could just be an interesting course description a lot of students_ there's a lot of biology for non-science majors, there's about ten different biology courses you could take a first-year seminar you could take a big lecture class, <WALKS S5 TO DOOR>
S5: yeah thank you 
S2: yeah you feeling a little_ you seem a little, hm? you feeling a little, more focused?
S5: no sorry
S2: i'm happy to talk to you before your classes if you want. 
S5: thanks
S2: okay who's next, victim?
S6: me
<R1 LAUGH> 
S2: okay
R1: i told her already so
S2: okay, she's good Yasmin? 
S6: yeah. that's right
S2: yay <SS LAUGH> is it Yasmin Hasan? i'm so tired, [S6: yep ] i know you were one of my orientees... alright okay.
S6: i have a question like you gave me this, form when_ i'll have to (xx) 
S2: oh, i thought you_ you got it already? oh okay you know, you can do that like, right 
R1: you you can wait to fill them out afterwards. and just set them, over here 
S6: yeah you gave me this when f- when i was at orientation 
S2: thinking about Pharmacy, School yeah
S6: about the Pharmacy School, and they have this whole thing set up like [S2: mhm ] for the two_ first two years [S2: right ] and stuff like that, 
S2: term one term two term three term four 
S6: yeah and [S2: yep ] so i already took Chemistry one twenty-five and one-thirty like right now [S2: yeah ] what they're asking for, so i'm just wondering like, Orgo, should i, take it this semester and then skip like you know and then go back or should i take it back-to-back? that's what i'm having trouble with. 
S2: you know it's up to you. because basically, they're changing um, i can't even talk anymore i'm sorry <LAUGH>
S6: i take English too.
S2: and you have English already oh you're such a good girl. you need the biology, [S6: right ] and that's a_ it's a five-credit class now they've changed the biology curriculum so you can take Biology one sixty-two, [S6: uhuh ] they've combined the two semesters of biology into one semester so, that could keep you busy. um and i guess 
S6: is that is that this one right there one-fifty_ oh okay 
S2: yep yep now it's but now it's this and this is [S6: one sixty-two ] it hasn't_ the course guide doesn't even really r- well the course guide reflects it but not the bulletin. [S6: oh okay ] um... i mean so i would definitely sort of take this, and then some electives um i guess my question for you is how are you enjoying Chem one-thirty? are you finding it a difficult course?
S6: it's fine. i mean it's not that difficult.
S2: it's not a problem? 
S6: nope
S2: um, i mean if you want to there's absolutely no reason why not to except [S6: mm ] that you'd have two labs if you take biology and chem
S6: well it_ i would have [S2: you know ] two labs anyways if i did it next year cuz i would have physics 
S2: physics anyway, [S6: right ] right so i guess that that's part of the, i mean i don't see, [S6: any problem? ] a reason not to except if you would find it too difficult.
S6: or like, some people were talking about like, you take the first part of orgo and then during the spring, or summer term [S2: mhm ] or whatever you take the second part of it,
S2: mhm you can do that 
S6: cuz it is offered but, if i didn't want to take it here if i wanna take it maybe in Dearborn, [S2: mhm ] maybe Wayne State or something if they offered it, [S2: mhm ] is that like a good thing for that, credit to be transferrable here or is that
S2: well the nice thing about taking it at Dearborn is your grade would transfer as well. [S6: okay ] if you took it at Wayne you'd just get the credit. um i don't think it matters so much. 
S6: it doesn't?
S2: 'm'm, i mean it's one of_ if it's easier for you, to take it closer to home [S6: right instead of (coming) here ] over the summer, i mean that's fine, [S6: okay ] if that's how you wanna spend your spring half-term, that's cool, not a problem. 
S6: (if) the spring half-term would that_ i mean i could finish the_ all of, the rest of the chemistry? 
S2: indeed you could you could be, if you keep going at the rate that you were now describing <S6 LAUGH> you will be done taking, sort of you know the
S6: or if like if i left chemistry for next year and did physics, [S2: mhm ] could i take physics during the, or like could i take [S2: that would count ] all the phys- physics during sum- spring-summer term? in like Dearborn or something?
S2: you could but you might run the risk of burnout. are you trying to hurry through? i guess i don't understand what you're 
S6: oh no i'm not i'm just wa- because i don't wanna take chemistry and physics at the same time cuz
S2: okay so what_ maybe what you want to do then is to start chemistry... in the winter, [S6: okay ] and then you could finish it up in the spring term and then just take [S6: mhm ] physics, next year. 
S6: physics during next year?
S2: if that works. i mean you need to be feeling comfortable is the reason you don't wanna take chemistry and physics together that you feel that that would be too demanding for you?
S6: yeah cuz i'm not good at physics at all so 
S2: okay so it's physics is the area of concern [S6: right ] so that should be the course that you take without taking the other courses. right [S6: okay ] so your thinking your thinking is very clear, [S6: okay ] that makes sense.
S6: so but like i can take it at a different school like when would i, like apply, to that and stuff?
S2: um usually around March.
S6: March?
S2: yeah
S6: like do i have to apply to the school and stuff like that? i_ over_
S2: usually yes. 
S6: because i i mean i applied before, but do i have to i have to apply again?
S2: it's a different kind of application, [S6: oh ] you would apply to be a not-for-degree student. [S6: okay ] you're basically just dropping through you're just visiting. [S6: visiting okay ] happening to take the second half of Organic Chemistry thank you very much. [S6: okay ] so what you do is you end up filling out an application to be a guest student. [S6: mhm ] so you're not really, applying for admission to Wayne State. [S6: uhuh ] cuz if you were to do that you'd be applying to be, you know an undergraduate you know [S6: right ] four-year degree i want my Bachelor of Science at the end of this degree. [S6: right ] you're just wanting to take the one class and it's it's a pretty straightforward procedure. 
S6: or even if i, like at O-U? i mean that's like [S2: same difference. ] five minutes away from my house if i took physics there if i finished all my physics stuff, [S2: mhm ] would the grade be transferrable here? cuz doesn't [S2: mhm ] like Pharmacy don't they need the d- grade also?
S2: well the grade wouldn't transfer here but if you took physics at O-U, you would still have a grade it would just be on a transcript from Oakland University. [S6: mhm ] right and if you look at who transfers to U-of-M they say like who, certain people completed_ okay forty-three percent of the people who are currently in their program completed their pre-pharmacy work at U-of-M. forty-five percent of_ completed their pre-pharmacy work at another four-year, college or university so it's not like they discriminate against people who take courses outside of U-of-M more people, take courses, [S6: mhm ] outside U-of-M than inside U-of-M apparently and twelve percent of these people took all their prerequisites, at a community college. [S6: community college okay ] so even then more than more than ten percent of the people they admit, you know went to a community college and saved a bundle. [S6: yeah ] so i think they're looking for a variety of things. um, so you know it's good you're a woman you're a Michigan resident, <S2 LAUGH> and you're [S6: so i can really just (xx) ] a minority from a minority group you know as long as you like nail chem- you know and it's like now you have to, nail chemistry, <SS LAUGH> [S6: right ] um so they don't really care where you nail it, [S6: okay ] as long as you're_ you know if you get C-minus in chemistry not that good, um i g- i guess you have some you know, it's up to you i can't tell you whether it's better to take biology and physics together or biology and chemistry together although what i will tell you is physics lab is much shorter. [S6: mhm ] physics is a two-hour lab. [S6: uhuh ] so that actually biology and [S6: physics ] physics together might be less overwhelming cuz that's only gonna be six hours of lab. 
S6: oh so i could take physics next, term and then just take chemistry, right. 
S2: you could do that and then take chemistry next year. [S6: okay ] that would work. and physics is also a universal curriculum, it's_ it always comes in as physics, it never comes in as physics departmental credit. it always comes in as either Physics one-twenty-five one-twenty-seven or like one-forty one-forty-one. 
S6: right.
S2: and that's a good sign. 
S6: and then like for my electives i could just, take anything i wanted?
S2: whatever makes you happy. 
S6: because like, do i have to do i have to still f- fulfill those um, the L-S-and-A requirements about raith and_ race and ethnicity or whatever it's called
S2: if you transfer to Pharmacy in your junior year, no. 
S6: no? okay, [S2: if ] but if if there's that chance that i don't get in, [S2: right ] the Pharmacy school then, but i still got two years to do it right? 
S2: then you and you if you wanted to get a Bachelor of Science from L-S-and-A then you would yeah.
S6: but then i i still have two years right? 
S2: and you still have two years. right 
S6: okay 
S2: and Pharmacy's uh distribution requirements seem pretty mellow and laid-back compared to um, [S6: right uhuh ] L-S-and-A's they want, two courses in the humanities or foreign language and two courses in the social science. [S6: right ] so 
S6: and um, there is also like, remember i said i was like wasn't sure about computer sci- like i was reading like it's right in there actually [S2: mhm ] and it says that like people, considering pharmacy should also consider another thing, [S2: mhm ] just in case. 
S2: right. and you'd wanna consider [S6: computer science. ] computer science? okay
S6: so like i i don't know what classes i would take for that. 
S2: um i can actually tell you what you should take for that then. although what happens then is you're gonna end up with four really hard-core courses, [S6: (okay) ] and then i wouldn't take the physics with the biology. 
S6: but [S2: um ] in like in the spring-summer can i do that like if i took physics and just like a computer class, [S2: mhm ] somewhere else? 
S2: well you can't take a computer class somewhere else if you're gonna major in computer science because [S6: oh ] just as i said physics comes in, always comes in as like the right physics, [S6: right ] computer science always comes in as the wrong computer science <SS LAUGH> when you take it somewhere else, [S6: oh okay ] i have enough experience seeing p- kids go oh but i thought, okay for computer science what you wanna be aware of, is for example if you want to major in computer science you're going to need mathematics, through Calc Three. so that next semester [S6: mhm ] you would need to take Calc Two. 
S6: i'm in Calc Two.
S2: next semester you take [S6: Calc Three okay <LAUGH> ] so i mean that kind of tells you what you would need. um and they tell you the prerequisites so you have_ you'll have at the end of next semester you'll have all the math prerequisites, um and then there's Computer Science one-hundred two-eighty and three-oh-three. [S6: okay ] uh these are the prerequisites. the physics kind of overlaps they want you to have two courses in natural science and, obviously if you're [S6: i already have that ] pre-pharmacy that will make you do that. [S6: okay ] um so i guess my concern would just be if you were to take something like biology physics mathematics and computer science you've got,
S6: if like if i just went according [S2: it's very difficult ] yeah if i we- just went according to this or something [S2: mhm ] and like whatever i didn't get into Pharmacy whatever, [S2: mhm ] changed my mind went to computer science. would i still have enough time? to finish all that?
S2: yes. because 
S6: like i'd i'd be starting from like zero you know like, 
S6: no you wouldn't.
S6: fr- i mean like the computer science, [S2: right ] courses
S2: um you would be starting the computer science courses from zero. y- and you mean your junior year you wouldn't have had any computer sci- you probably would want to take computer science somewhere along the way.
S6: somewhere along the way okay
S2: yes, but you would need to_ so you might want to for example, maybe rather than throwing the physics in there now, maybe take biology, [S6: and com- ] mathematics and [S6: computer science ] computer science and then an elective which was a social science or a humanities. [S6: okay ] for balance, do you know what i'm saying?
S6: yeah, i understand okay
S2: but i wouldn't do biology physics computer science
S6: no no <S6 LAUGH> okay i understand.
S2: uh but Math one-sixteen's going fine it's not
S6: Math one-sixteen is killing me i am [S2: it is killing you so ] am like i am like, not doing good at it at all. [S2: okay so actually, ] in that class. and i don't know why cuz i i thought i knew it but i don't.
S2: okay and when you say killing you what do you mean?
S6: like i'm getting like a i think a low C, or D. 
S2: killing you okay you mean harsh [S6: yeah ] okay. um, i would maybe not necessarily want to go on to two-fifteen right off the bat then if you, [S6: right ] i mean and i guess i would wonder it just_ it would be difficult for y- these are really difficult courses 
S6: see i that's what i don't know like if i need two-fifteen like later on it just, i'd be forgetting like everything. [S2: i know ] so i'm just having a hard 
S2: well if you do computer science you will need two-fifteen. the pharmacy and the computer science degrees together are very difficult. what you might want to think about is for example the pharmacy prerequisites happen to be the same prerequisites as biology.
S6: mhm... so consider something in
S2: or you know i mean you you're very nicely set up for biology chemistry or physics. <SS LAUGH>
S6: just not computer science
S2: correct.
S6: okay i see
S2: so if you like biology or you like chemistry, [S6: mhm ] that might work real well. 
S7: hello
S2: hi Dana 
S6: okay 
S2: this is Dana my Peer Advisor
S6: hello
S7: hi
S2: this is Yasmin one of my orientees you live in Stockwell don't you? [S6: yeah ] yeah you know you should 
S7: what was your name? 
S6: Yasmin
S2: Yasmin. Hasan? 
S7: i thought i only had one person named that (xx)
SU-F: oh that's cute <S6 LAUGH> mm ooh
S2: and i remembered her name too i'm so proud [S7: mhm ] of myself.
S6: okay [S2: okay ] makes more sense then
S2: alright now i mean i'm w- i guess i'm w- 
S6: so i'm like i can_ i'm really open to just do anything that fits what i wanna do. 
S2: yeah 
<BACKGROUND NOISENEXT :30> 
S7: you want me to see if i can help any of these students out here?
S2: yep that's cool. thanks.
S6: and so by taking it at a different school wouldn't, affect anything, at all?
S2: right. not at all [S6: okay ] and it would make your life easier if you decided that your alternate plan B would be to concentrate in one of the natural sciences you're setting yourself up for, [S6: right that's true ] rather than to try to do [S6: computer science ] an entirely different set of prerequisites. 
S6: that's true. no it just i- i- i- i- 
S2: and you can take_ you can still take some computer [S6: science right okay. ] science just, it's like trying to do engineering and pre-med it doesn't work. 
S6: well i jus- i just know a lot of people that did not get into pharmacy just they change to something like computer science so i was wondering how they, could possibly do that. 
S2: well you could, you could it would be tight you probably_ i mean the way you described it would be pretty accurate you would start to do it your junior year probably you might be able to do it but it would be tight. [S6: you think_ mm ] so it could work.
S6: but like if i started my junior year like all my, all i'd be
S2: you'd be taking nothing but computer science baby
S6: that's alright computer science and like math. [S2: mhm ] that'd be it. [S2: mhm ] okay. that's cool okay [S2: okay ] thank you very much, helped me a lot 
S2: so this is all your stuff and she wanted you to fill this out so, [S6: oh okay ] you can grab that 
S6: do you have a pen or something?
S2: yeah i do. <ADDRESSING PEOPLE IN HALLWAY> hey there, aren't you guys always together?
SU-F: no. 
S7: (no, no) <LAUGH>
S2: what's your name? 
SU-F: Mona
S2: Mona
S7: um she wants to_ like will she be able for orientation, with like how_ with the time schedule and things and i told her i m-
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