S1: my name's Tom Lehker and i'm a staff member at the Career Planning and Placement office. uh this is a program we hav- as far as i know we have never done before, um we're co-sponsoring it with Rackham, um uh the idea of sort of what it means to be a faculty member as a panel really came from students at some of the other events that we had, um as we would collect our student evaluations which i'll have you fill out at the end of this program. one of the events that students talked about having was something that really, gave faculty a chance to talk about. issues of of faculty culture or faculty roles, um expectations of junior faculty and how those expectations might, um change as a faculty member, uh progresses through a career, um, maybe some of the myths, um myths and or realities that graduate students had, i'm hearing from a lot of graduate students they just didn't hear much from, uh their advisors and other faculty members about what it really did mean to be a faculty member. so we uh decided to do this type of panel to start to address some of those kind of issues. partly knowing that many of these issues are very specific to the individual student or also possibly very discipline-specific. so i think that's one of the limitations that we acknowledge going into something like this, is that we're hoping that the panelists um can speak sort of as generally as possible but also knowing that they will always speak, from the framework of their own, um process that they went through. um, let me just say a couple things sort of administratively before we get started, and one is to say up front that we were supposed to have three panelists today. but i got a call from Professor Rose from the history department literally about an hour ago, she could hardly speak, and said she was too ill to attend. uh but we're left uh with two uh very fine panelists, we'll have um, Farnam Ja- Jahanian, um from the EECS department up in engineering, and also Professor Dickerso- um, Glenda Dickerson, who's also, in the theater department and also an associate dean here at Rackham.
S2: and is making her stage entrance <SS LAUGH>
SU-F: (it's very nice)
S1: on cue. we're just getting started.
S4: good.
S1: um, and so the idea of this panel will be that um um, both of the panelists will speak for some amount of time, ten fifteen minutes uh potentially longer if you like given that we're we're short one panelist today, um i gave them some questions that they might want to think about along the lines as i was outlining earlier but then also hoping that question and answer which i always think is is always very helpful in this type of setting. um and so in just a minute i will turn it over to them, i am gonna pass out a couple things, the first is, program evaluation if you could take just a couple of minutes at the end of the program and fill that out. um again it's the evaluations in past years that have led to events like this so we really do take, your feedback seriously. the other, is just a clipboard, if you could also, sign in. uh, we like to, keep a record of who attends these programs it helps us to, justify our, existence, uh for things like this. so i think that was all, i wanted to say i think maybe if the panelists wanna come up now we haven't talked about an order for who would like to go first so you can, flip a coin or
S2: could i ask a question before we get started?
S1: sure.
S2: i was just wondering if you could raise your hands if you're, here because you're not sure if you wanna be a faculty member that you might be interested in a nonacademic career... okay, thank you. 
<P :05> 
S3: so, would you like to start, Mrs Dickerson?
S4: well i could i <LAUGH> I hadn't thought of starting but would you like to start?
S3: okay i i i'll start [S2: okay ] if you give me a minute to prepare. so i'll i'll be um, brief, uh, i've prepared a couple of things to share with you uh before we get, started. and and really we should keep this a a uh, more of a dialogue and and i'm looking forward to to answering some of your questions and share some thoughts with you. but i wanted to sort of set the stage for for for this discussion, by telling you a little bit about who i am. and also, uh, give you a snapshot of my uh daily life, as a faculty member. here at U-of-M. and um, uh the best thing to do is essentially to start first of all, uh by giving you my vital statistics. um let's see if this... as you can tell i'm an engineer. i can't talk unless i start with a biograph. uh... so i um, uh have a PhD in computer science i graduated from the University of Texas at Austin, in nineteen eighty-nine, um after um, finishing my graduate work, i joined um the research division of I-B- of I-B-M. um, and i was there for about four years, and then took a faculty, position, here at U-of-M in the College of Engineering that Tom mentioned in the Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Department. so if there's anything to be shared that's um, discipline-specific i guess i'll bring in the engineering perspective. um, currently at Michigan, i have a research group, that has uh, depending on how you count uh on a given day, uh ten masters students and PhD students in it. by the way how many of you are from the engineering college? just a curiosity. oh wow, significant number. um, and i guess how many from L-S-and-A? how many ho- wo- another question is are there any, undergraduates here...? [SU: (xx) graduate students ] okay, that's good. <AUDIO DISTURBANCE> who are um in my <AUDIO DISTURBANCE> who actively work and um <AUDIO DISTURBANCE> that's my academic life. i'm also married, and i have three kids. and that plays as big a role in my happiness and my health as as much as my academic life. and and it's very very difficult to actually separate, uh the two. so, i i'll be happy to answer questions of that that aspect of it as well. that's a vital statistic. so as i was thinking, and and trying to come up with, profound things to tell you about being a faculty member at Michigan and i solicited input from some of my graduate students, who by the way were threatening to show up and challenge me on some of these things,<SU-F LAUGH> none of them showed up, i um i i decided potentially the best thing to do is to give you a snapshot, of my daily life. um what do i do during the day? um and in particular, i in preparation for this, i took yesterday as a representative day, and also last Tuesday. uh partially because yesterday is a day that i, didn't teach. and last Tuesday is a day that i actually teach. so here's Monday, twenty-second of February, um, and that was yesterday morning, and this is what my, i don't know if you can see this in the back, this is what my day looked like. uh not very glamourous but there's some some points to be made. um at nine o'clock every Monday morning i have a research group meeting uh that's actually at central campus interestingly enough not at north campus that lasts till ten-thirty, right after that i rush to my office answer email put out a few fires and and in this case i had a few minutes left and i wrote, a bunch of reference letters that were pending, um and attempted to do that i had about forty-five minutes got that done, and then, i had allocated myself an hour to finish editing this, journal article that we've been working on and trying to put some finishing touches on it. and sure enough at noon right before i had to go to my my lunch meeting i realized that i wasn't done and i had more stuff to do. but there's no, uh time left during the day as you can tell for me to get back to that point. um by the way you didn't tell me are we supposed to talk them into becoming faculty members? <SS LAUGH> [SU-F: (xx) ] i forgot to ask your advice on that, but but nonetheless let me continue bear with me. um a- a- and and uh, probably the most enjoyable part of it was i had a lunch meeting, which i usually uh almost every day of the week i have lunch meetings and often it's with my graduate students. uh who are in my research group two or three of them at a time that are working on a project, right after that i had a review of a defense talk by one of my graduate students who's going to do her defense in a couple of weeks she's actually doing her interview jobs uh going through her interview process right now, after that i e- have about an hour that i have a T-A meeting, as well as i do uh, course preparation, for my lecture on Tuesday, um right after that there's a software seminar that we run every Monday and usually during this time of year we have faculty candidates come through i went and attended that, the reason for that is because i had to have dinner with the faculty candidate so i had to attend the talk, at least um i also serve on the search committee so it was important to do that. uh i had fifteen twenty minutes right after that i answered a few phone calls and answered, uh, my email, at five to six i had another research meeting with a couple of my graduate students, and then around six fifteen, i rushed and had dinner with our department head and uh and our faculty candidate who was visiting, and um i'll get to the last part of the uh the day which starts around ten P-M. uh, uh but earlier during the day you see there are a bunch of arrows. and i, tried to accurately, uh, highlight, uh different places, during the day, where a very high-priority urgent thing came up. that sort of distracted me from whatever i was doing, that morning. and i counted, three of them that came up yesterday that's a bit unusual, but one of them actually, was a realization, uh at about two-thirty, that my wife had just returned from out of town and i had forgotten to tell her, uh that i was having dinner with this faculty guy (right?) <SS LAUGH> and uh i got on the phone and i called her up and i said uh i think i mentioned this to you but i may have forgotten. and she said yep you sure did, and that was the end of that. so, that was a nonteaching day, and then, i wanted to share with you today was going to be bi- a bit difficult so i picked last Tuesday and i took some notes on it, of what i did on Tuesday the seventeenth. um, again i showed up i answered my email being a computer scientist a lot of my work actually gets done through email during the day and the evening, and i usually have an hour that i prepare for this class. this is a course that i've taught many times so preparation is not a whole lot. uh, i went and gave my lecture, um usually, i spend about thirty minutes right after lecture uh handling questions this is a, very large undergraduate class. i have about, hundred and twenty or hundred and thirty students in this class. it's a senior-level undergraduate class. and then i have my meeting with my graduate students uh that were_ i i j- i'm the director of the software lab a a in E-E-C-S department, i, had some software-lab-related administrative issues, and as well as a, uh principal investigator meeting coming up as part of a research grant that we have, we go through these meetings of principal investigators for this program, that's funded by Department of Defense and we have to take some presentation and posters and i had a meeting, to go over our poster see how it looked, and then also, uh, at the end of last week i had a program committee meeting on Friday, and i uh had read some of the papers and i typed in some of the reviews for these papers, and i'm sure that's true within other disciplines as well where there's peer review of of uh of published papers, and then finally i held my office hours and i had, some more meetings with my graduate students and_ this is a joint project with Honeywell_ and then uh, at around uh six to six-thirty_ all the Es have dropped from this sign for some reason_ uh uh i i answered my email and i attempted to leave my office. usually that's what my day looks like. and i have a bunch of Rs and Ws in in here and and late at night i tend to do a lot of reading, a lot of writing some more reading some more writing. but R also stands for relaxing and W also stands for, watching television. uh <SS LAUGH> so it's a it's a combination of various things. um, i don't remember if there were any high-priority interrupts that came during the day on Tuesday of last week, but i'm sure there were a few of them and i just neglected, uh to highlight them. so, um, a couple of things to to to point out. um, and and i'll try to be_ to wrap this up actually and and get to questions after, uh, you share some of your thoughts with us. uh, i wanted, i tried not come up with twenty or thirty different bullets that sort of uh, uh captured, uh all of my thoughts about uh, what it means to be a faculty member. i tried actually i wrote down about twenty or thirty different things and i said okay what are the most, three important things that i wanted to share with you as far as life being a faculty member. one thing is, which i think it's a, it's the challenge and what had really attracted me, to come to a, to an environment to an academic environment from industry. and and i think i'm in a in a pretty good position to share my views with you on what it takes to succeed in an industrial environment an industrial research lab as well as an academic environment. and i know that's not applicable to all disciplines. uh is that um intellectual freedom, and and uh and for a for an engineer or a scientist such as myself uh, the realization that in fact, you are in, uh to a large extent, in control of of of your research destiny. that the work that you do that the research contributions that you make. um, and that's a very positive aspects of being in an academic environment that intellectual freedom. and and the ability to essentially pursue, uh a lot of speculative things from a research point of view. and and and uh, there's not a day, that goes by in fact if you go and look at, all of the research meetings that i have with my graduate students for example, there's not a day that goes by and i demand that of my graduate students that, almost every day when i meet with them i learn something from them. and that's really really important to me as an ac- academic as a faculty member. uh, i, o- often, as my graduate students sort of uh uh join my group and we work together and so on, the relationship of uh feeding them information in one direction, sort of gradually goes down where it gets to a point where i learn a good deal, from them and through them. and that's a that's a very attractive aspects of being in an academic environment. um... another interesting aspect of it is that although you're in charge, uh, you can't let it get out of hand. sure you're the chief executive officer and you're the chief financial officer and you're the chief information, officer and you're the chief scientist and the chief recruiter, the chief lobbyist, head of the sales department and it goes on and on and your the chef and you're the waiter, and you're the, waitress or the waiter and you're the busboy, and everything, as far as, the group is concerned. as far as the_ this research activity is concerned. um, so although you have tremendous amount of leverage in pursuing, uh sort of this this intellectual exercise, but at the same time uh uh there's tremendous amount of responsibility on a faculty member. uh in terms of the kind of activities that that that we're responsible for. and and in a company for example, it's very different. things tend to be much much more hierarchical and division of labor seems to be a lot more clear. at least from my perspective. the second point that i wanted to to um, share with you, and this probably is not true across all disciplines, at least i can say in in, much of engineering it's true, certainly in much of computer science where i belong, is is true. is that um, my day um, really does have_ does require the ability to, switch context from one topic to another topic very quickly and very fast. and and fairly frequently. and that really does require uh uh a person who's going to succeed in the job at least in the kind of work that i do, the ability to uh shift focus from uh, one aspect of our research to another aspect to teaching, to dealing with say service or administrative issues and so on and so on. and i noticed that to be, uh um much more wide- widespread and much more frequent, in in in uh, my position as a faculty member in in in the College of Engineering than i had noticed actually being in the industrial research lab. i found it to be some of them a more sheltered life uh i- being in a research lab. finally... i know many of you go into, uh, or choose to to go and pursue an academic uh um career, partially because of the research you do that interest that you do in research. and i won't hide from you the fact that, and i know many of you know this_ you're a graduate student here_ that University of Michigan to to a large extent is a is a research institution. we do have, teaching responsibility i think we do a very good job of it but research is really really important. and um and and faculty members who are in in in um many of our academic units are expected to uh, excel in research and be the best in their disciplines. uh and that's expected. but i can't emphasize the importance having been both on the the industry side and and the teaching side, i can't emphasize that you really should not go into an academic environment. as much as you enjoy research, as much as you believe that in fact the, work that you were doing whether you're in history or you're in psychology or in computer science or other areas of engineering, you should not go into a- and pursue an academic career, unless you truly enjoy teaching, and by teaching i don't really mean just getting in front of people and and lecturing for an hour and a half, in in a in a classroom, far from it. you enjoy teaching and you enjoy, mentoring students. and e- the best uh sort of way that i can uh share that with you from my own experience is, probably the most enjoyable part of my job. from all the things that i do during the day, is the part that, uh i interact with, uh the undergraduate students when i teach them, in classes and talk to them, and also my direct interaction with my graduate students my research students. these two are by far the most enjoyable aspects of the job. and if you don't enjoy that, you really should not be in an academic environment. regardless of how good you are in your research. you should pursue a different, career. go to a research lab go to a company go, do something else. and i think i think that's a, point that i want to make that do not underestimate, and i know, eh you know uh uh uh many of our academic units are very very strong in research, uh we should not underestimate the importance of, commitment to teaching and mentoring students, um both at the undergraduate level and graduate level. as faculty members. i stop at this point in time and, turn it to you. thank you.
<P :10> 
S4: uh again my name is Glenda, um Dickerson, and i wanted to ask how many of you if any of you are artists? wha- what department are you in?
S5: i'm in English.
S4: and what kind of art do you practice?
S5: direct plays and write poetry.
S4: fabulous. okay so is i- what's your name?
S5: Andrew.
S4: Andrew. is Andrew the only one then?
SU-M: if we like to dance does that count?
S4: yes that counts<LAUGH>
SU-M: okay
S4: and what about_ is there anyone else here who's in English? who writes, or directs or, paints or... so what are you all thinkers? <SS LAUGH> is that what you are predominately tell me some of the departments that you're in some of your interests.
SU-M: economics
S4: mhm, and you? in the red 
SU-F: (xx) mechanical.
S4: mechanical. and you?
SU-F: chemistry
S4: chemistry and you on the floor?
SU: pharmaceutics
S4: uhuh and you in the blue shirt and the glasses?
SU-M: (public accounting)
S4: uhuh and, you?
SU-F: chemistry
S4: okay. um, one more. b- all the way back there the back in the beige, cable-knit sweater.
<SS LAUGH> 
SU-M: i'm in material science and engineering
S4: in materials okay so, my discipline is theater as you may have heard. i write plays i direct plays i um, make, i make plays i make projects i make big community projects out of, nondramatic sources and i make them into dramatic events. so you would say well, our interests, couldn't be farther apart. <SU-F LAUGH> that's what you would think. and if you look at the books, at where i am published which are very different from my colleague, one book is called, Colored Contradictions. and the other book is called Contemporary Plays by Women of Color i have plays in both of these books. you would never, if you came across these books in a book store i bet you wouldn't pick it up you wouldn't you know it wouldn't be of any interest to you and you'd never think, that something that said Colored Contradictions would have an impact on your life but it does. and do you know why? because we are both, teachers. we are both faculty members. and we are here today in the same room trading intellectual currency. whereas in another life our paths would never cross. and i say to you that our lives mine and yours are richer for the fact, that our paths cross here today. so whether you become a faculty member or not of course, it's a question for you to answer. but i wanna tell you what being a faculty member means to me. and in order to do that i have to tell you a little bit about the work i do. and how i do it and show you how it has an impact on the work you will do. if you become a teacher. an educator. a member of a faculty a part of an academic community. i teach acting, as i told you... and when you teach a person acting, you have to find a way to go into that person's mind, and animate what we call, the inner image. you have to find a way, to, un- um release that person's imagination. to employ, her inner life. her hist- her history. her imagination. and that's a gift. not everybody can do it. you know? not everybody can animate that inner image. and so i've worked at it all my life. and i've become very good at it, i really am a master acting teacher, and a master director. and i have tremendous results, but do you know why that is? primarily? it's because i'm interested in the answers to my questions. i'm not asking questions for, any kin- for a b- a a result. i'm asking because i want to know the answer. and so when i say to an actor, who's playing, does any know James Baldwin? yes? sure right? no? okay so who's James Baldwin my sister? okay so somebody who's familiar with James Baldwin tell me who that is. anybody. yes.
SU-F: political thinker writer, um, commentator
S4: can you tell me something that he wrote? 
SU-F: um, Giovanni's Room, um (xx) 
S4: The Fire Next Time yes Go Tell it on the Mountain. yeah, he was like, when he died i was at his funeral at the Cathedral of Saint John the Divine in New York City, and Amiri Baraka who i'm sure everyone knows Mr Dorsey do you you know who that is don't you? [SU-M: (xx) ] does everybody know who Amiri Baraka is? okay so Mr Dorsey speak to us a little bit about Amiri Baraka.
SU-M: um Amiri Baraka, formerly know as LeRoi Jones was another um, black writer a poet um, [S4: poet essayist, playwright ] essayist and a playwright all of those things, [S4: thinker yeah he was a ] and a rev- rev- revolutionary thinker
S4: and a revolutionary thinker yeah [SU-M: yeah ] that's the best way [SU-M: yeah ] one of the best way at at at uh James Baldwin's funeral, James Baldwin who preached the eulogy said, he called him God's revolutionary black tongue. that's what he called James Baldwin. and that's the best exper- the best example you know that i've ever heard of. but, say we were looking at Richard and James Baldwin's play Blues to Mr Charlie. who is a drug addict. and they send him from the upper you know from the urban the hell of urban America, down to the south to be with his grandmother he (gone) south and of course he's lynched down there and killed. it's a horrible story it's the story actually of Emmett Till. it's based on h- an historical person. and so anyways that's the play. so if i'm trying to direct someone to play the role of Richard, then it's not enough for me to say well how does a junkie act? you see what i'm saying? you know what does it feel like to be in withdrawal from heroin it's not sufficient to ask that question. the question that i have to ask is, how do you feel... when you need something desperately and you can't have it? and then it's not enough to a- just ask the question you have to plumb the actor for the answer. because they're going to say something superficial at first. can't you see why? who wants to be on the spot? you know exposing yourselves so they're going to say something superficial but you keep plumbing and plumbing and plumbing until finally, something unlocks in that person. and you see it, the planes of their face change. the eyes might tear up or look far away. you see it when it happens it happens every time. and it's magical. it's the same thing that i look for when i'm teaching my students. it's the same thing. you know i was taught, by the empty-vessel-to-be-filled method. <SS LAUGH> does everybody know what that is? somebody tell me what that is. who wants to tell me what they think that is?
<P :04> 
SU-M: noninteractive teaching
S4: huh?
SU-M: noninteractive teaching. a professor lectures one way, one way 
S4: o-u- noninteractive teaching yes exactly. you know what i thought you said? you said noninteractive teaching right? you know what i thought you said? i thought you said no one talks but the teacher. <SS LAUGH> it's the same thing though isn't it? isn't it the same thing? yeah. so, that's how i was taught. and there's some things that i learned like really really well that way and there's some things didn't learn it_ i just didn't learn. until much later in my life. so, in study i was a Lily Fellow Lily Teaching Fellow in my career, and you know many other things and i learned this questioning method. this questioning method, so that you ask, a student, a question. and the trick is, to value, the answer. to value the answer because it's easy to pretend to ask questions. that's easy. you know. what's your name in the yellow sweater?
SU-F: Dunry
S4: Dunry?
SU-F: mhm
S4: so it's easy for me to say well Dunry what do you think about what i just said? but i don't care what she thinks. <SS LAUGH> all i want is to u- say something so i can pretend to have asked her a question so i can then keep on talking, some more. but the trick is to value the answer, to the question. to un- to want to understand, what is going on in Dunry's mind. just as my colleague said. to understand what is going on in Dunry's mind, and really how, i impact her. you know it's very frightening when you first start having students write back to you, you know that was one of the methods we learned as Lily Teaching Fellows, you know that you have them write back to you and how'd you think class went today. well what would you like to do more of? you know what would you like do, it's very frightening. but, if you can just, kinda gird your courage, then you find it's a very valuable, you know exchange. and i'm taking the time to tell you about the questioning method because... if you don't, love... students. if you don't love, the idea of interacting, with a thirsty mind, then being a faculty member as my colleague says is not for you. but i tell you, that there is nothing more rewarding than you have spent a life of study, some of you have been in here what eight years? <SS LAUGH> you know you've spent a life of study you've spent a life, um, saturating your mind with an expertise that only you possess. and there's nothing greater there's no more wonderful feeling in the world, to be able to ignite a fire in somebody coming behind you. with what you have going on in your mind to me that's all that teaching is. that's all that teaching is. and i, have integrated, being a faculty member into my professional, life which is a- what i hope you will do. if you don't want to be you know if you don't want to be a tenured professor. you know i hope that you will find a way to integrate teaching into your professional, life. that's how i first got on tenure-track i stumbled onto it. see don't be ignorant like i was that's why these_ you're so lucky to have these workshops like you're having, cuz i just stumbled into a tenure-track position i didn't even know what it was i just knew i had a job for three years. to support me while i you know directed plays which pays no money. and so then when that tenure-track position was up, you know that one didn't work out because i didn't know what i was doing i was just going, teaching my classes thought i was doing a good job and then that didn't work out and then i went to another one and, you know then it was time to come up for tenure no one had told me how to prepare my portfolio, no one had told me how to insist that my creative work be, evaluated differently than your scholarly work is. these all of the things that i didn't know when i was coming through twenty-five years ago. and these are all the things that you know now. you see these are the things that Rackham takes out time, to make sure you have this information i can't tell you how valuable that is. and i can't um, i can't tell you, what it means, for minds across disciplines to be able to meet. you're not gonna have that anywhere else. than in the academy. minds across disciplines wide expanses of disciplines. and it makes you a richer person it makes you a fuller person. it makes you a warmer person it makes you a better person and i think ultimately it makes it, a better world. so whatever you decide to do, with your, with your fine minds. and this wonderful education that you, have been given, here in this institution, i hope that, you will consider, utilizing part of your energy, to teach. to give back, to pass on. so i'll stop there and i hope we can have some questions. thank you.
S2: um i'd like to to start with a question to um Professor Dickerson. um, i know that you, taught at Spelman before coming to University of Michigan i was wondering if you could, comment on the differences of teaching, [S4: ah ] at a small school versus, a research university.
S4: right, well. um... i started out at Howard University, which is a small African-A_ well it's not so small it's a it's a university but it's small compared to here it's an African-American institution that was kinda my first job, and then i spent the rest of my career at I- at the State University of New York, which is a large institution at the State University of New Jersey which is a large institution, and i went from those places, to Spelman College. which is a small African-American women's college in Atlanta Georgia. uh the president was Jeanette Cole who some of you may even have have seen or know of you know they call her America's Sister President she was a remarkable woman. and she took Spelman from this little colored girls college you know missionary college, to this major institution that was known all over the world and it was just, remarkable how in ten years she transformed the face of that institution but, it was so small... a- and there were no graduate, ps- you know classes there were no graduate students and so, the difference is that when you're talking about interdisciplinarity at Spelman, you're talking about about two people. <SS LAUGH> who are willing to work with you outside of their own discipline. and it's very very hard to, even between Theater and Women's Studies, which is you know one of my real interests it was very hard to get the Women's Studies Department to kind of collaborate with me on some of the, big projects that i wanted to do and that i was used to being able to accomplish working in universities you know like big huge, conferences and symposia where you bring this one and that one they just didn't, you know they just didn't see it they were very uh, insular in that respect. and uh, when i left Spelman and came here, i don't know it was like... i don't even know how to explain it to you. um... first of all there's this sense of, being overwhelmed because it is so large. and there's a sense of, so m- so much wealth. you know the wealth of_ not_ i don't mean financial wealth_ the wealth of every time you turn around you're meeting another wonderful person and a, finding out there's a whole department that does this over here and oh my god there's an institution that does that and so you can't, you know you can't, take it all in. but this is my second year. and then you begin to realize that what makes this and i've thought about this a lot, what makes this institution and an institution of this size, so powerful an experience, is that there is_ a- anything you want to do you can you can do it. there is going to be not one person but five on this campus anything you can think up, there're gonna be five people you can find who are gonna wanna collaborate with you on it. and i don't_ you know not even just close to your own disciplines i mean way across disciplines. and that's what i think is a primary difference for a person, who wants to stay in her lab, or a person who wants to stay in his, department, you know you can go almost anywhere but if you want to think to the future, if you wanna be prepared for the millennium, if you wanna think globally, then you wanna come to a huge research institution like this. 
<P :04> 
S3: yes
S6: some questions for you i have
S3: sure
S6: sorry i don't remember your name
S3: Farnam
S6: Farnam?
S3: yes
S6: number one, can you talk more about what your evenings are like?
<SS LAUGH> 
S3: sure
S6: number two, [SU-F: and weekends ] <SS LAUGH> evenings and weekends that would be good. number two, when do you get the large blocks of time, [SU: mm ] where you can get things done? i mean i see all these hour-long things and, i know in my experience, that doesn't work to get, really major new things done. and three do you really write references for people in half an hour?
<SS LAUGH> 
S3: oh yeah. i i can i can whip 'em out believe it or not. no actually it takes longer than that. uh, i- i- i- it often, [S6: i was hoping it wouldn't ] yeah. they would often actually_ that particular uh uh thing was that i wrote a uh, bunch of recommendation letters for a several of our undergraduates, who are in our honors society, and for some reason this batch did not make it. the_ this was all to U-C-L-A. and that morning i essentially went back and retrieved my files and i printed them and i made copies of uh, there fortunately i had copies of the form letter itself. and i [S4: hm, hm ] essentially regenerated those and sent them out so. no recommendation letters often take much longer, particularly for graduate students. [S4: mhm ] as you (can expect.) so uh what are my evenings like? actually Jane, London as_ who is a neighbor and her son and my son play uh, uh can testify to this. uh e- your experiences will, uh vary depending on the faculty member. i have colleagues for example who are are single. and brand new to the department and so on and i know many of 'em, um, they still, you know lead a graduate student life in some ways you know they, go and eat something they come back to their office they work some more and so on. i fortunately live close enough to my office where i can do that. however, i do have three young children so, a- as a rule i i try to get home, at a decent hour so we have meals, and uh, and then play with my kids, and um my wife and i make an honest attempt to get 'em to bed by nine o'clock, uh, which, i think it's a record for our neighbor and i think uh, so uh usually till about nine nine-thirty, uh, it's primarily consumed by you know spending time with family eating and you know and and and hanging around with the kids. and um, uh, of course i- it really varies, some evenings i, decide especially if there's something i'm working on writing a proposal writing a paper i may just, work on my laptop and and continue from you know ten P-M till later, there are other nights that i don't do anything. i just, you know my wife and i hang around we talk, we read we watch television, um, and uh if i had to sort of take a guess i would say at least a couple of nights a week, i'm working after uh, going home after the kids are in bed. the ve- the weekends are also, uh uh, uh, kind of similar, i do tend to work a little bit, on weekends. in general a couple of hours at least on Saturdays sometimes more. i, attempt to do some work at home. um, and that uh and that's all done trying to uh, schedule it around my kids, essentially. and and and my wife. so that we have some family time on weekend of course on weekends. um, i have tried actually, uh to minimize the amount of work that i do at home on weekends. uh but the truth is a lot of times i can essentially read a paper, a lot of times if i'm, reading uh uh someone's dissertation draft and so on, those are the things that i can do a home and it's fairly manageable, uh 
S4: wha- what is your subject area?
S6: my, uh it's called geoscience and remote sensing it's a combination of, the electrical [S3: mm ] engineering department and atmospheric oceanic and space science department.
S4: mhm
S6: so it has to do i- with uh applying the information gathered by satellites that are orbiting the earth, [S3: mhm ] under a- and applying that information and understanding how the earth works as a system. [S4: mhm ] so it deals with climate change and things like that (xx) 
S4: so when you ask about a long, chunk of time are you thinking of, time to research or to write or?
S6: for example i mean i i need to write a a a paper for an upcoming conference [S4: mhm ] you know and it's it's it's mos- it's most conve- well, it's it's gonna get done the best and fastest if i if i can do it in long chunks of time [S3: sure ] instead of trying [S4: in an hour here and an hour there sure right ] to work on it (xx) so, you know i i i talked to my advisor about that too and and it's it's kind of a never-ending search to find these three- or four-hour chunks of time when you when you 
S3: you're absolutely right so i've i've done it, in two different ways and and i'm not exactly proud of it. uh, the first way is um, i, um and that works out actually fairly well there there are days like on Monday Wednesday and Fridays that i will block an afternoon and i don't respond to my phone i don't respond to my email often actually what i do is i go and hide in in one of my labs and, work. <S4 LAUGH> and uh, it works great uh it's it's uh um, because if if you're in uh, in your office and i try to be accessible, people will find you. [S4: ohh sure right right ] uh and and there's always a uh knock on the door. and it's not by the students as it turns out, i get interrupted more often by my colleagues. [S4: mhm ] than than than anyone else. or uh somebody, you know, needs something and remembered that oh they had to get a hold of me. often it turns out that if you ignore 'em and don't answer your colleagues and so on for a while they go away, <SS LAUGH> and and the thing will take care of itself and you don't have to worry about it. so, the other lessons that i've learned is that in fact, uh i i filter my e-mail and some of my email i don't respond to them, within the first twenty-four hours and remarkably many of those urgent things also go away and it's great uh it's it's [SU-M: and right they go away, sure go away ] that's one method that's worked out fairly well so i do and i, fully agree with you. that i could not, work on a paper or do some um thinking or do so some other research just spending an hour or so, it really has to be a longer chunk of time. there have been other times that i've allocated [SU-M: sorry ] actually, i'm sorry uh uh uh [S4: excuse me ] on on an afternoon on weekends, where i have gone in, and worked on it. and that's the part that i'm least proud of actually. but i've done that on, numerous occasions and i continue to do it and it works out okay.
S4: well i think too that there's also another way to think about structuring a day and a week. a day doesn't have to be divided up into hours and and and two-hour slots and i think, are other people interested in this question or or sh- [SS: yeah ] is there a pretty general at- it seems like something, yeah. it_ that's one of the things that when you're um when you first are interviewing for a new faculty position that's one of the really important things to ask, what does my schedule look like? how many days a week, do i have to teach? how many hours do i have to spend in advising? you know those are very important questions for you to ask so that you understand you know what a week looks like, for you. and if you, can negotiate so you're only teaching three days a week, which is you know, very possible, then you might have to spend that fourth day, advising students, you know office hours answering emails on_ but that fifth day, th- you could carve that day out for yourself and that day could be a Friday or it could be a Monday, and then if you could string together your week and see then that gives you um, three-day chunk when you can when you can actually do your work. so it's up to you how to structure your week depending on your on your discipline how to structure you know your day you can spend a day that you know depending you know family requirements and so on you can spend a day that goes from nine to nine to nine or nine to midnight to sh- to s- um, secure, six hours for yourself, you know on the second day.
S3: often though when i'm m- i had a lot m- n- numerous hours on my schedule that said meeting with research students, what i found out is that unless we're working on a paper for example. often an hour is a reasonable amount of time, to to give feedback and essentially find out what's going on and work through some of the details. um, one of the things that we attempt to do in my group is essentially to avoid having, long-drawn meetings [S4: mhm ] that don't lead to anything. so usually an hour time limit works out really well uh a- a- and it sort of forces a discipline, on us to be much more productive during that one hour. but there's no doubt i fully agree with you [S4: mhm mhm ] there're times that you just essentially have to set it aside and say i'm just gonna go work on this for the next four or five hours. uh you know brainstorming on something writing a paper and so on. 
S4: did you have your hand up?
S7: yeah, i'm in environmental education and i wanna teach, worse than anything in the world and maybe it's just a perception problem on my part but i, have a real hard time kinda with, with that kind of a snapshot of a day. i'd really like to have my days pretty much the other way around that, like all the time that you get to spend mentoring i wouldn't mind being in the classroom, or maybe, mentoring small projects or whatever even for undergrads. but the research meetings, and th- the amount that if you are going to actually get tenured and actually [S4: mhm ] get to keep a job somewhere, [S4: mhm ] i'm told by all sorts of folks then negotiate not to have a three- or four-course teaching load. i wouldn't mind doing that but, i don't get the idea that i'm, really gonna be able to keep a job so, [S4: mhm mhm ] how do we do what you say in terms of getting, creative work or community service or community research or extension education, like where you maybe take the learning from the university somewhere out in the community where it's needed and give back, [S4: mhm ] how do we get that evaluated like, scholarship? i'm not saying i'm gonna quit doing research or quit writing, but instead of two books a year or, [S4: mhm ] whatever it is, [S4: mhm ] i get to say that my day is another way and i get to keep a job.
S4: yeah that's right that's right. well you know one of the things that i wanted to say in my remarks and i didn't say is you know one the most important pieces of advice i could give you as a, young, faculty, m- uh, per- perspective faculty member is, to try to attach yourself to an institution that has a mentoring, system in place. and that, that will, that the department even, a- a- formally, pairs you, with a senior, faculty member who will mentor you. through some of those very tricky questions because, i think, you know this is this is one of the more supportive envir- um institutions that i've worked in you know i've worked in a lot of institutions where you're really just thrown out there you just really on your own. and that's when junior faculty member are really at risk, you know they can't win for losing. just as you're saying, you know you've got to, yeah you've gotta get your research done, you've gotta keep publishing you know, you have to s- sublimate sometimes your real interest which is to extend what you are doing out into the community. so i would say two things to you i would say one is the match, you know, find the right institution, for you. but, once you find that institution that you like, you must have a senior, faculty member to mentor you because there is a way to balance all those things and there is a way, to have value placed on some of these nontraditional things, not even really nontraditional but what, you know that you value there's a way to have them weighted and and valued and so you know_ because you can imagine with me coming through i didn't have a Phd you know i didn't publish you know, my, creative work was my research. but i was in a state university and they didn't know what that meant. i was way back there when we had to fight, not to have to publish. in order to get tenure you know, so, i know what that battle looks like, and i know that there's been a lot of progress made, and i i just think, you can have, the academic life that you want. i know that you can. it's finding, the right match.<P :04> mkay i think he had a question
S8: uh i don't know if you're, tenured or are you?
S3: yes, oh yeah
S8: okay, i i'm not sure when you when you were up for tenure maybe uh the transition was easier for you cuz you worked in [S4: mhm ] industry. but uh, i feel like the the schedule that you explained of the day well that's fine but uh, nice that you can, relax and everything, if you, did the same thing when you were up for tenure, or you know when you were untenured?
S3: sure, a a, so uh what did my schedule look like when i was, before tenure? um <SS LAUGH> i think i need to have my wife here to answer that. <SS LAUGH> (dear God) so um, i came on a shorter tenure cycle because i wa- i came from a research lab. so that_ my experience is somewhat bias(sic) so i came in, um, having, a good bit of experience particularly in terms of the research i wanted to do and so on and and that experience is not directly comparable to junior faculty members that start. at the same time, as quickly as i entered um, although i was untenured, in our lab suddenly a lot of the burden fell on my shoulder because, the expectation was that i was gonna get tenure very quickly and people started forgetting that i was not a tenured faculty. and and that was you know everybody acknowledges that was somewhat unfortunate but that was just the the you know, circumstances. so, e- e- very quickly many of the senior professors in other areas that depended on, our lab and so on, approached me and i became sort of the unofficial spokesperson from the software area. for a lot of things including graduate student recruiting faculty search and so on and so on. and, partially because there was a need in our area for somebody to fill that position. um, so my days were filled, um i had had bigger chunk of_ chunks of time, that i was, that i was able to essentially to allocate to do research. because first of all i had fewer graduate students, i had less funding, thank God at the time, uh so you didn't have to worry about as much managing the thing. um, and i took one, particularly for those of you who are engineering, students i say the best way to succeed is, to be very focused from a research point of view, to be very focused, in your research when you start. there is a temptention temptation among who_ uh engineering students that when you start, uh as a junior faculty member, there're so many other people that you can work with, and that's exciting. and and you know we all want to do that. but the problem with that is that as soon as you start getting involved in a bunch of, different things, uh you will have less and less, meaningful time that you can devote to one or two things that would, flourish [S4: mhm ] and develop into something, much more significant. so i made the conscious decision although i was being pushed for a lot of faculty members for joint work and so on, to be very focused in, couple of things that i pursued. and i resisted the temptation of actually getting involved in too many things. uh, i can no longer say that i am, doing that, i'm doing a lot more, the you know various kinds of things that that that i didn't use to do when i entered, but i think that helped a lot. that meant that i, uh was much more deliberate, in the kind of research that i, got involved in. and i was much much more careful not to jump into new projects and so [S4: mhm mhm ] on get involved in things. um, i, worked as hard as i do now, um, i don't think my work load has gone down, um, the same that i do it now in the evenings a lot of times i continue to work and and publish and so on, i think i worked a lot more on weekends, during the first two three years while i was going through the tenure process. uh and i know that i did. i spent a lot more time on weekends. uh partially i just couldn't do everything i wanted to do during the weekdays. as it turned out as my research became more successful, a- and the project started taking off and so on. uh, in some ways um, w- w- one of the things that's been really helpful is being able to define projects where there are two or three graduate students involved, and and that that has reduced, my, the effort that i'm putting into starting new things. i have two or three things that are ongoing. and for that reason, i don't_ i'm not spending as much time as i did when i was starting trying to get these things successful and trying to 'em off ground. [S4: mhm ] they're sort of, ongoing we're developing new things and so on, but that the initial overhead of getting things going is is is not there. um, does that answer your question? i i i probably worked on weekends a lot more 
S8: the uh the problem comes from
S4: but could we keep uh keep the dialogue going? we have another question [S8: sure ] over here [S8: sure ] go ahead.
S9: i have a it's uh, shifting to a different topic actually. [S3: please ] um, i was wondering if you might be able to, give some suggestions for someone, um some graduate students like me who don't get an opportunity to teach while they're in graduate school, but think that they might like it, think they wanna be a faculty member, um, you know what can you suggest, to explore those ideas [S4: mhm ] that possibly 
S3: wha what is you're background which department are you in?
S9: um, i'm in the Department of Health Management Policy in the School of Public Health.
S3: and why is it that you don't have the opportunity to teach?
S9: they don't, um, they don't have T-A positions for, most it's a master_ it's a professional school most of the courses are taught, by the professors and, graded and evaluated, students are graded and evaluated by the professors, rather than by T-As. [S4: mhm mhm ] so they have some gradership positions but no, T-A positions.
SU-F: try Psychology, they're always looking for T-As
S9: (xx)
S3: do you have any, thoughts on that? [S11: it was naive (xx) ] i [SU-F: go ahead ] i i had a suggestion for you, o- one way to do this and and i encourage all of my students all of my students graduate students are funded as research assistantship, as assistants or fellowships through fellowships. so they also have this similar concern which is, for them it becomes a choice of, before joining my group if they were a T-A great if they weren't after they join my group they really don't have an opportunity to be a T-A because, the choice becomes, uh you know making a lot of progress in their research or essentially uh, stopping their research or slowing it down and spending a semester T-Aing. um, anyone of my graduate students that that comes to me and says they have interest in joining an academic environment, i encourage them to do it and i encourage them to do it actually later. in their graduate career, as opposed to earlier in their graduate career. i think they're actually become better teachers they're much more self-confident, and it doesn't become, like a chore. they don't have any more course work that's really a great time to get them to do it. so they can actually make some progress on their research but at the same time they can spend a semester and i encourage them to do it. in your case my suggestion is to look, at community colleges in the area to see if there's an opportunity. because some of the community colleges do approach our graduate students to come in and help in teaching. and if you can get for example Washtenaw Community College or if you're willing to go a little farther you know somewhere around Detroit closer to Detroit to see if any of the community colleges_ particularly if you're a senior graduate students_ would be interested in having you be an instructor. and uh i think you're being very wise in trying to get some teaching experience before making that decision. 
S4: i do too. mhm, absolutely
S1: i've also, just (i could say) i worked with students who have also taught (xx) courses at four-year colleges. i worked with a student who taught a summer course at at Kalamazoo College for example so i think community college is one that wouldn't have to be limited to that either i think
S4: mhm mhm
S10: yeah uh (in) my case i i don't wanna have a tenure-track position or something. i want to stay here, after i get my PhD degree, for like two years or something just to have the experience and then go back to my country
S4: which is? 
S10: which is Brazil. [S4: mhm ] and uh, i would like to know if you, think, uh what kind of, uh, positions if it's it's available or not if (xx) 
S3: what's your area?
S10: i'm in, computer information system in the business school.
S3: okay C-I-S
S10: C-I-S [S4: mhm ] and i have another, question related to this it's uh, about uh post-doc [S4: mhm ] what are you expected to do really, in a post-doctoral, program, position?
S4: in a in generally, you know gen- generally speaking?
S10: yeah
S4: um, i wanna look at the first part of you question, you said that your preference would be to stay here at the university for another couple of years, after you 
S10: or or another university around here [S4: oh so you ] working teaching 
S4: oh stay in this country [S10: yes ] two to three years [S10: yeah yeah ] i see before you go back to Brazil [S10: yeah ] yeah uhuh. well i think um, you know post-docs you know vary you know depending on on the the institution and on the um you know on the on the subject matter. you know some of them will provide you with the opportunity you know just to do concentrated research. for the time of the post-doc you know others will um, expect you to function, s- something like an assistant professor. [S10: mhm ] so again it just depends on the institution but it's a wonderful opportunity for you to you know move to that next step before you take the, plunge of getting on a tenure-track line. it's a wonderful opportunity, they have a situation here, at this university called the Co- is it the College of Fellows, Jane? what is it?
S2: uh you're on your own Glenda
S4: i just heard about it today, that's why it's fresh on my mind, because i have to sit on a, a committee i found out to evaluate, um applications for the distinguished fellow. distinguished dissertation but this is a College of Fell- it's like a post-doc and and and and p- and uh students come from all over, and there're twelve of them i think each, i think she said there were twelve of them, each year. they're twelve continuing ones so i guess there're more all the time. cuz they can come, every year. but you know i mean that's right here you might look into that that's a Rackham_ has something to do with Rac- i think it's_ i'm pretty sure it's called, the College of Fellows you can speak with Glenda Haskell... yeah?
S11: i was wondering if you could talk about, a little bit about, the sort of politics of teaching and, uh how you have to, balance between, personal issues. agendas uh, kind of departmental, issues um especially when developing course content or, [S4: mhm ] teaching styles, that kind of stuff. [S4: yes ] are you, sort of mediating between all these different things that are [S4: yes ] trying to
<P :04> 
S4: yeah it's really it's a it's a real, challenge. and th- the first challenge is that you know teaching is so hard this is what i really, you know so many graduate students are just kind of thrown out there and you know put on tenure-track lines or whatever and expected to be teachers. you know where do you learn that? you know you learn through observation and if you don't observe a good teacher then you ain't_ there's no reason that you're going to be a good teacher. so that's the first challenge you're trying to find your way you're trying to find your style you're trying to, you know get your courage up and not be intimidated you know by these thirty open faces looking you know looking to you to know everything. um, so, you have to balance you know like like all of that stuff so i think um, i think... in terms of the politics of the situation, here's one good thing about the academy. even though we tell all of these horrible, you know these horror stories about you know the poor untenured faculty you know the junior faculty and they're so at risk, you know which is true of course. but you know the other side of that is that you really are someplace, where it is really hard for you to lose your job for holding an unpopular, opinion. you know it's not like the corporate world in that sense you know they really do take, the f- you know your first amendment rights seriously so that you know if you are um, if you are, if you are prepared if you can, you know support what you are doing in the classroom and if you believe in the style which you have, uh built up, you know for yourself, then i don't think that you have to you know_ but now here's what they do in one department i know which i won't mention any names, but there's a real split between, th- the practical, faculty and the, scholars. there's a real split. that's fine you know they don't agree on anything. you know that's you know that's okay but what happens is that there's all this bitching and backbiting and nastiness that goes on in the classroom where these people b- use their students as pawns to get their point of vie- you know that was just, so bad what that person did and which i think is just reprehensible and that's i mean a- a- and you know you're gonna find that i don't know what you can do about that all i can say is that you have to just navigate your way through like you are walking through a landmine <SS LAUGH> you know it's all you can do and you kind of begin to get a sense of, your style. you know which is how far you going to go to get along, with somebody. you know how far are you gonna bend what you're you know what your mind is telling you to, be a colleague. and it's just a, it's a dance you have to learn to do but you're protected see that's what i love about the academy you really are, you know you really are protected you have to really show out. to not get asked back in you know in one sense. i don't know you, have any thoughts about that? <LAUGH>
S3: u- u-well i think um, going back to what i said about intellectual freedom that's absolutely true. i think in companies if if you have an unpopular position they probably promote you to get you out of that department. <SS LAUGH> (xx) uh, in universities they don't promote you to get you off their back but um, i think um, one thing you have to be careful about i think you alluded to this already. the university that you pick. or the department that you pick actually. even even at Michigan i'm sure there're departments that we wouldn't wanna join as faculty members. [S4: mhm ] even if we were, the best researchers scholars in that area. [S4: mhm ] we wouldn't wanna join. uh, and i hear from my graduate students you know i- from several PhD students who are now out in faculty positions some in industry and i- and you hear that when they go to a department they right away get a sense whether it's a collegial place [S4: yes ] whether it's a, [S4: yes ] nurturing environment [S4: that's right ] and that really is_ goes back to to comment that was made about you're interest i- in teaching is, you have to find a right fit. [S4: mhm ] uh, if you_ and you have to trust your own instincts [S4: mhm ] that if you don't, feel, right about a place [S4: mhm ] it's probably not a right place for you, [S4: mhm ] and furthermore, you should heavily depend on your advisor and also other faculty members in your department, who are_ have colleagues in other departments in other universities and know a lot [S4: right ] and believe it or not there's tremendous amount of knowledge, that exists about particular environment at these other universities and, uh you should heavily heavily, uh uh depend on that information in making a decision where you go. that probably affects your life more than anything else that first choice that you make in terms of where you're gonna end up. [S4: mhm ] and then after you join a department, uh i i think five more senior faculty members quickly, you will realize that respect people who have opinions, and who are willing to state their opinions, [S4: mhm ] and to defend their case, [S4: mhm ] you will see that, most faculty members are of that line. [S4: mhm ] and at the same time you have to be careful not to just go around and piss everybody off [S4: or just alienating people right right ] and alienating everybody and pick your fights carefully, until you're tenured. and then <SS LAUGH> and the truth is actually after you get tenured i can tell you that wi- with certainty that you actually even have to be more careful. because then you have the younger junior faculty members in the department that you have to be careful you're not, hurting their feelings and you're not coming across being heavy-handed, and then you have the more senior faculty members that you don't want to give the impression that you've become arrogant just because you've, got tenured. so but really ch- choose where you're gonna go carefully and also, uh uh uh pick your fights uh, [S4: hm ] that's my best advice.
S4: and you don't have to go to a research institution either. [S3: not at all ] you know i was thinking about your question i mean it's no- i mean it's, you know, we have this hierarchial(sic) thing in our mind but you go where you're happy. you know go to teacher's college maybe. 
S3: on- one of my students is actually, is just doing what you're interested in doing bear with me for a minute i'll share you with you a story. sh- she came to me and said you know, i love doing research but i don't wanna do_ spend hundred percent of my time essentially worrying about research which at most research universities, overwhelming majority of our time is spent worrying about research. and mentoring graduate students she said that's not what i wanna do i wanna go to a place and i wanna do teaching. and what we did was we sat down and we went through a list of, and the job market for computer scientists is pretty good so we went through a list of you know, probably a hundred universities that had, positions open. and i just essentially helped her eliminate, majority of universities that i thought had the culture that did not suit her interest. [S4: mhm mhm ] and i think your advisor another mentor in the department can be someone you can depend on too to help you with that and that, eliminate places that are, you know are just purely research universities and you'll be much happier. [S4: mhm ] couple more questions? 
S1: yes one or two for more questions?
S3: yes
S5: uh this is really an extension of the last comment but i was wondering if you could, uh speak a little more to the pitfalls that, await junior faculty, members and mistakes that junior faculty members, tend to make especially coming from a large research institution like this one and maybe only having been in that environment and moving to a different, kind of institution say a smaller, [S4: mhm ] college that's filled, with, [S4: mhm ] a research background um, speak to, [S4: mhm yeah right ] speak to that 
S4: you know what the biggest mistake i think junior faculty make is not understanding the climate of the department that they are entering. because junior faculty are always piled up with a lot of work they're always spinning their wheels and always overworked and, and under-rested, but you might be putting your energy to the wrong thing and not even know it. and so i think the, most important thing, the biggest pitfall i think to avoid, is, not to be spending, you know expending all of your energy working for the department because that's all of_ always you know you get all the, you know the, committee assignments that nobody else wants you know and you you know you're directing two plays in your first semester you know in in my world and uh, you know you have, you know you're asked to take on the overload would you mind you know teaching four classes and you say oh yes yes yes yes yes yes trying to be, you know accommodating you know, and then you find out when you get your first three-year, evaluation, if you're, in the tenure stream if you're on your way to tenure then you get, then you find out that, this isn't weighted you know as much as you thought it was and this doesn't count at all and this is really not valued what he really should have been doing, is this this and this and this. and so i would say, really get a clear understanding get it in writing if you can from your chair when you begin a tenure-track position as to really what the department's expectations of you are in your first year. and get a clear understanding that, at your three-year review if there is such a thing if there isn't such a thing, can i in fact have an informal three-year review. where we sit down together, and we look back over the three years and you tell me what my strengths are, from the department's point of view, and what my weaknesses are what you'd like to see me strengthen what you'd like to see me improve in my next three years. then you have some protection, if you're denied tenure. you have some protection by_ because you have this document that says these were the things that i was told to work on and i did and this is how you document, you kno- i i published five articles. i have my book coming out, i you know sat on three you know, scholarly journals or you know o- or you know whatever. so tha- i that's what i would think. that clear understanding of what the expectations are and don't let yourself get overworked, if it's not going to directly, enhance your tenure, um portfolio. if it's something you wanna do, that is not valued, find a way to get it valued. you know find a way to get it and get f- it in writing. 
S3: i think the biggest pitfall for junior faculty members is that, you have to be careful. you wanna be a good citizen but don't overdo it. [S4: mhm ] that's really the bottom line. [S4: mhm ] because there will be, so many requests if you_ particularly if you are conscientious you do a good job [S4: mhm ] serving on a committee, [S4: mhm ] there'll be half a dozen other committees that will pop up and will, require your attention and everybody will [S4: mhm ] swear that it is, you know the thing to do.
S4: yep
S5: how do you say no?
S3: oh you just draw the line. and what you do is a good department, when you approach them, we do this in in E-E-C-S. with, first of all junior faculty members the first two years are given no official service req- assignment. [S4: mhm mhm ] and you ask your department when you go visit and ask them, [S4: mhm ] uh in fact you should come up with a list of questions, [S4: right ] but getting the job is a different issue we're not addressing here today but you, that's one of the questions you should ask is what kind of service do you expect from junior faculty members? [S4: mhm ] and and your expectation should be that the first couple years you do absolutely nothing but focus on your research and your teaching that's it. [S4: mhm mhm ] beyond that, you essentially have to politely learn to say no, and and even better to go to your department head and get them to say no for you. [S4: right ] uh, or a- i- i- i- and other senior faculty members [S4: right ] to draw the line. because, that is probably the biggest f- pitfalls i've seen among junior faculty members they just get swamped [S4: swamped ] with, you know, yeah, and, don't be afraid of that because it, 
S4: afraid to say no cuz it's unpopular. right-and the thing to do is say you know i would love to it sounds so exciting bladdy bladdy blah. but i have a deadline for, an article that i must get out. you know always couch it in terms of your research, <SS LAUGH> you never couch it in terms of oh i have to go see you know the premier of, Snow White and the Seven Dwarves <SS LAUGH> i have tickets. you know always couch it though in terms of your research so that the, the only per- perception that person can have is that you're trying to stay on your, publication pa- you know path.
S1: we have a last quick, relatively quick question?
S4: yeah?
S12: how many people don't get tenure?
S4: you know i was very shocked i don't know what your experience with it i was really shocked when i find out how many people go all the way up through those seven years and they do not get tenured. i mean i was really shocked when i began, and you can't see why. you know it's like you just simply cannot please, some institutions you know you can't they've done everything they've published and then, but they're p- you know it's just not seen good enough and it's not prestigious enough and it's just not fit, enough. so i would say i don't know any statistics maybe, maybe some of my colleagues do but i would say a lot. [SU-3: we- ] i would say like half. 
S1: is that a third question to ask a search committee? what percent of
S3: sure i think 
S4: that's a wonderful question to ask a a search committee.
S3: (yeah) actually ask ask the uh j- not just the search committee ask various faculty members ask the dean. and here's the reason you should ask it. in fact a lot of universities when you go for an interview, they tell you that wow we are a very tough place [S4: mhm ] we only tenure you know [S4: mhm ] half of our people or a quarter of our people. [S4: mhm ] that actually shows it's a pretty lousy institution. [S4: yes ] <SS LAUGH> because they're doing two things. one of the two things wrong. one either, they're real turkeys they don't know what kind of faculty members to recruit, [S4: mhm ] they're terrible recruiters, [S4: mhm ] because they obviously have gone and seventy-five percent of the time, [S4: right, right ] they've recruited other turkeys that they're not willing to <SS LAUGH> or, right? i mean that's you the possibility? or the second possibility is that uh, their attitude toward tenure is, we bring people in, we let them hang around [S4: yeah ] we don't nurture them [S4: don't nurture them right ] and if they don't nurture them it's sort of survival of the fittest [S4: right ] mentality [S4: and that's what it is ] and then if they survive we know they're good enough for us, if they don't survive well somebody else will take them [S4: will come along yeah ] so, that's exac- you wanna go to an institution. that's proud of the fact that their tenure rate [S4: yes, that's right that's right, you've got ] is very high. a- and you know the reputation of their research. there are some institution like Harvard [S4: yeah ] in computer science. they just don't tenure anybody. [S4: yeah ] everybody knows that [S4: yeah ] so when you're going in you know that you're gonna go in, you're gonna spend seven years there, you're not gonna get tenure but then you turn around and enter, say, Illinois or Michigan [S4: right ] or Wisconsin as a tenured faculty that's kind of an unwritten rule we all know it happens, and so on [S4: right ] a- a- and some people it really does happen to them and most people you know they go through the tenure process don't get a job somewhere else. [S4: that's right ] but really the thing you need to ask, i don't know what the statistics are i am sure it varies from [S4: college to college ] college to college university to university, [S4: right ] but the thing you need to ask is, well what is your rate of tenure? in E-E-C-S department last night, this came up actually last night, because i was having dinner with a faculty, uh candidate who who brought up this issue. my department head said_ and he was_ and he said eleven people came up for promotion and tenure last year. [S4: mhm ] from our department, [S4: mhm ] out of eleven, ten got it, and the only person who did not get it was a promotion from associate to full. [S4: mm ] that was considered to be delayed. [S4: mm ] everybody else who came up for tenure and promotion [S4: mhm ] and my department head was very happy. [S4: mhm ] to say that [S4: mhm ] and he was very proud of that track record. [S4: mhm ] that we, [S4: that's right ] you know 
S4: it's very important that the institution that you apply to at a_ finally align yourself with is a nurturing, institution. because there are a lot of institutions, who, have the attitude that my colleague says, well we'll hire you, you know and you're out there on your own no guidance and if you can get through us then you deserve tenure and if you can't you know so what. and nobody can, succeed in that situation and nobody should have to and nobody should want to. so the important thing is to ask the right per- i think a great workshop, would be questions, to ask, on your interviews. when you're going to interview for your first tenure-track, the 
S3: there's stuff on-line on the web available actually.
S4: oh
S3: there there there're people who've put stuff like this together my students have tracked 'em down. and there's stuff that that're available that, it's maybe particular to engineering (xx) discipline, i'm not sure. but i know uh, my student was telling me because i go over a list of questions that they should be asking us all, and she had a list of like a hundred questions she had come up with, that she found on-line. search for it if you can't find it send me email i- i'll find it for you.
SU-M: actually there was a workshop like that [S1: yeah ] right? you you you uh acted as a, uh interviewer (xx) 
S1: we've had some not quite that specific but we've covered that. we also have a couple resources in our library that would, that would have some some typical questions as well. so, um, i know that we're impinging on Professor Jahanian's, dinner hour 
S3: oh
<SS LAUGH> 
SU-M: i was wondering about that
S1: i do wanna thank the panelists again for coming out
<APPLAUSE> 
S1: thank you all
SU-M: good job
S1: if you would take a couple of minutes to fill out those evaluations i would appreciate it
S3: you didn't tell us that we were gonna be evaluated 
S4: oh sure good i'm
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