S1: alright well, welcome, all of you, to th- i think we shoulda got a bigger room, but we didn't <SS LAUGH> know. uh, we'll start off the the defense the way that we, typically do in in the department is to have the candidate, make a brief statement about, his involvement with the topic of the dissertation. uh, so, would you like to, talk about that, [S2: yeah ] very, briefly?
S2: well, history of, of my involvement with the topic is, is a, is a personal story, and since the, uh, since that story has undergone obviously uh, the attempt of objectification, in the process of writing, i uh, chose to, to keep this, introductory uh, summary, personal, um, in the hope that that will, get us going, uh with the questions. <READING> uh i embarked on the journey of this dissertation a long time ago, when getting to know the music of Keith Jarrett turned out to be, an inspiring musical experience for me. i was a teenage musician in Germany, who was growing up with western classical piano training. like Jarrett himself, i was interested in improvisation, jazz, and various traditional musics of the world. i fiddled and played accordion, in an Irish band. i sang Yiddish songs and studied klezmer music. i composed some minimalist pieces a la Steve Reich, on my xylophone. i was fascinated by Ravi Shankar, and bought my first sitar. </READING> uh, stay with me here, for a second this is uh going to have to do something with, sitar but also with, Keith Jarrett indirectly. <READING> in order to learn sitar i contacted a German who had been recon- recommended to me, as the authority on Indian music in Frankfurt. i visited him and he accepted me, graciously as his student, under one condition, that i would give up all the other instruments i played, focusing exclusively on the arduous study of the sitar. this premise seemed absurd to me, and that was the first and last time i saw this man. i wanted Indian music to be part of my musical world, rather than my new and perhaps, better musical home. very innocently, i wanted everything. i was looking for differences, and multiplicity. i was searching for a collage of sounds, that i perceived as unusual and off the main stream. actually later on, i would study sitar with one of Ravi Shankar's disciples, who encouraged his western students not to aban- abandon their western instruments. it was in this climate, that i encountered Jarrett's music. the first record was solo concerts Bremen Lausanne. here was a pianist, but he seems to hear and play everything. he played the world and put it on a piano. moreover he played with body and soul, not with the kind of restrained classical de- demeanor i had been taught. his prize of ecstasy while playing gave voice to my own desire to find myself and to be different. as a postwar German i shared in a particular identity crisis with m- many in my generation. those of us who perceived the problem of being German, or perhaps, being German as a problem, had to figure out who we were in light of an unspeakable history, that had given all attributes of inhumanity, a German face. Germany was the topography of the most despicable violation, of everything that civilization stood for. consequently, we were desperately searching to reconnect with, the good German history, one that valued tolerance and respect for other cultures. we desired to place ourselves in a global perspective, a world view built on acceptance curiosity for otherness and fruitful exchange. my musical choices were part of this search. Jarrett's music, especially the solo concerts, connected to the European heritage, while also offering, an escape from it. Jarrett the piano recitalist continued a revered tradition, but also appeared, as a rebel who revolutionized it. the next steps in discovering Jarrett's music were his recordings, with the so-called European quartet. Jarrett's compositions for this ensemble, were of a decidedly lyrical expression, with singable melodies and almost folk-like har- harmonic turns. the instrumentation, piano saxophones bass and drums, and the element of improvisation belong to the American tradition of jazz. Jarrett's play with crossing stylistic delineations, addressed my own desire, for a multicultural, globally conscious identity. Jarrett's work with the American quartet, showed him playing multiple instruments and emphasizing free improvisation. using many instruments, Jarrett later produced, uh folk-like recordings. folk and free jazz were the poles of Jarrett's aesthetic horizon. the same horizon within which i tended to define myself. finally Jarrett's classical recordings and compositions added another layer, in a multistylistic collage, again connecting to my own training in western music. Jarrett's jazz standards, recordings, also frequently display a classicizing aesthetic, that is for instance the use of baroque-like quotations over bebop quotations. Jarrett's jazz is performed as a chamber musical product, for the concert stage. this predilection appeals to European audiences who generally come to jazz from a classical western background. in short, i began as a listener, a fan if you will. Jarrett's music fit my own predilections and, so to speak my identity needs. the multiple layers however also set up a game of hide and seek with conflicting images. musical hybridity and paradox are cornerstones of Jarrett's artistic persona. Jarrett the world musician, the explorer of ethnic sound sources other than the piano, still plays informed by western by notions of form, sound quality and harmony. Jarrett the improvising solo pianist on the other hand applies principle, principles of formal construction, remarkably similar to North Indian raga performances, which became popular in the West at the time of Jarrett's formative years, the late sixties. Jarrett the jazz improviser alludes to Bach and Mozart rather than Charlie Parker. researching articles on Jarrett's work as well as interviews revealed an often defensive individualist, who made at times outrageous and pejorative statements about other artists, very self-confident statements about himself, mysterious and ambiguous comments about the nature of art, and the realm of metaphysics, and critical statements about the world of music, apart from himself. i discovered that Jarrett tends to be received at extreme poles of evaluation. there is little middle ground people adore him, or abhor him. he is often taken to be provocative. my musical hero, was caught in a web, of controversies. having been cautioned, not to glorify him in my own project, i took my distance and became frustrated myself at times disillusioned with many of Jarrett's statements and the images they transported. i realized that analyzing and seeking to understand, that which looked puzzling upon confronting Jarrett's music, would be my angle of engagement. as i emerge at this end of the process i find that much of the controversies around Jarrett, had at least as much to do with media and market forces, as with himself. in our interviews, he has addressed many of the issues that have sparked controversy, in a very thoughtful manner. he has been seen for instance as someone, who self-servingly refuses to acknowledge his musical lineage, instead emphasizing his own musical genius. with me, he was humble and eager to talk about his many influences. under public scrutiny for more than thirty years, he has nonetheless managed to do, quote, exactly what i want to do. the contrasting images of Jarrett have allowed him, to engage with a vi- wide variety of aesthetic approaches, to traverse a wide musical terrain, without giving up the idea of unifying this diversity, by forging it, into his own recognizable style. in the dissertation, i observed Jarrett's chosen musical areas, attempting to explain their cross-stylistic elements, and how Jarrett assembles his musical collage. these areas are, and so dealt with in the different chapters, his use of multiple instruments between folk and free jazz, his solo improvisations, his jazz performances, classical performances, and compositions. as the writing itself is closing a circle, i find myself reconciled with my protagonist, enriched by a deeper understanding of how various elements are brought together, in an intricate and colorful soundscape, an artist's musical journey, that remains, an inspiration for me. </READING>
S3: gee, i feel like clapping
<SS LAUGH> 
S3: that was really, great.
S1: okay, alright well now we'll get down to the hard part.
<SS LAUGH> 
S1: okay we'll go around the table and we'll uh uh, ask questions make comments, whatever, so Bob, you wanna start, with you? 
S3: sure alright. well Christoph, um, just a couple of of details here uh... uh i wonder if you'd comment, uh uh d- page one-sixty-five i uh, please, i- i- it was one of those uh, sort of moments, where, you know i was reading, reading through your stuff and you were <S2 LAUGH> you were talking 
S2: one sixty-five looks like this
S3: oh <SS LAUGH>
S4: you've got a different
S3: oh one-forty-five i'm sorry
S2: okay. [S3: yeah ] i was thinking you know
S3: yeah well i
<UNINTELLIGIBLE SPEECH> 
S4: you have the only different
<SS LAUGH> 
S3: um, i i you know when we first started to, discuss this uh project in_ or at least when you gave your uh, your your colloquium, i know one of the the issues that was uh, uh sort of floating around in my mind at the time was was the question of, sort of historical context chronology, and and so forth and, of course you've chosen to do a, uh, a a nonchronological approach although we do get, a a nice biographical sketch of Jarrett at the very beginning, but um, you know there there seem to be so many changes in his career, uh, of position and interest and so forth, so that when, for instance i came to this uh this portion, i believe you were talking about a concert that took place in_ this is the Kyoto concert of nineteen, seventy-six or [S2: yeah ] whenever, uh and and you say um, you quote him about making the piano sing you're talking about his vocalizations and and so forth <READING> i want the notes to flo- fly naturally float in the air </READING> and so forth, <READING> that's the only thing that interests me. </READING> the the thing that brought me up short a little bit and, i'm not trying to catch you on anything but i wonder if you'd just comment on it was th- th- the date of the quote was sixty-nine, which is quite a bit before, that particular concert and, i just wonder the extent to which, with somebody who's been so, uh, publicly available and who has made so many pronouncements some of them contradicting each other, how do you know, when, something that he says at a particular time, it can be applied to, things uh, later in his career? [S2: mhm ] i uh, in this case i was looking for something, closer in proximity to the Kyoto concert, (i mean) seven years may not be a big deal but then i thought of it as a more global issue so i wonder if you'd just talk about that.
S2: mhm. actually the this particular uh, element of of Jarrett wanting to make, the piano sing, like a voice, uh is one that he has, uh expressed and keeps expressing today, um uh throughout his career. i guess i chose that uh particular quote, um bec- because i found it the most eloquent of those [S3: mhm ] that address that issue, uh, but maybe it would uh make the point uh better to, to include that there are, very unrelated interview situations where he keeps making the same point so that it's obviously important to him. but i think on a deeper level your question brings up that uh, the whole relationship between those, uh changing images between the different aspects of his work or the different eras of his work, and the underlying um uh, con- consistency um, uh not to catch Jarrett as a, as somebody who intentionally plays with those images but, in the process of researching it uh what what became more and more dominant to me is, how little changes [S3: hm ] uh in the overall scheme of things how many of the attitudes carry through, seemingly very uh diverse, areas and uh for me that's not that's not a criticism that's, in some ways maybe what he expresses when he says i do exactly what i want to do, and um, uh... for instance the idea um, this idea of classicizing that i talk about uh, in the dissertation classicizing jazz improvisation or, or building up an uh, uh, an aura of a, uh, a notion of artistry that we more commonly associate with western classical music um, uh that carries through, many different uh, musical arenas that he e- engages with for instance, i at one point i quote him saying even about this uh, folk project uh the Spirits project where he overdubs himself on recorders and, and all kinds of instruments, um, uh that he saw himself very much as as a as a composer, uh, rather than a folk musician. [S3: mhm ] um, and all the the attributes that he brings to that notion of, being a composer are very much, part of um, of uh western classical, history, and and i, i try to be careful not to s- to use that as a value, judgment i and i try to not say, oh he tries to um, to edify the jazz image uh by [S3: mhm ] becoming this classical uh, genius um, uh although those, perspectives have been mapped onto, uh what he has done in that area. so, even though it looks very different, on the one side to uh, to do free completely free improvisations than to record, these multitrack uh folk-like uh vignettes and then to go out, and play jazz standards uh even though that looks very different, [S3: mhm ] uh, and is very different in terms of the the, the musical arena he engages in but, it seems to be very consistent with uh, with a few attitudes that actually, he has held constant over the course of his, career and and one of those is that he hates the piano even though as a_ that he is a pianist and this <SS LAUGH> idea, this idea of, making the piano sing making it be like a saxophone or like a voice, uh is is almost a a, metaphoric um, uh, manifestation of this idea of wanting to overcome the piano [S3: mhm ] wanting to overcome the, the uh, the mechanical uh, aspect of it the distance from the sound, production, uh that that this mechanism of the piano in- in- involves
S3: well i'd be u- i mean it's a good, good response i i guess i'm looking for something even littl- just a little more, on the technical side [S2: mhm ] i think it would be a good idea to, [S2: mhm ] to, let your readers know, since, there's a somewhat kaleidoscopic, uh, impression created by reading the dissertation [S2: yeah ] from front to back [S2: right ] and it's almost as if, you know you get the feeling well, you know a a writer could uh, uh decide that uh, he or she [S2: ah ] well in your case he, uh wanted to reinforce something so, well, here this [S2: right, from there ] quote bang you know it's just, sort of uh th- that kind of stuff. okay well that's uh, th- i think you could strengthen your case [S2: mhm ] a little if if if, you were to do that. now, another one uh, and this your, your opening statement, uh addressed quite, quite nicely i thought but since you and i talked about this, this morning, among other things i uh i wonder if you could just say a bit, in this form about the subject of_ uh which i addressed in my uh evaluation for Rackham, uh, coming away with a bit of a feeling, that uh, after you had, done all this work on your, your boyhood idol and, torn away all his masks and everything that that somehow, uh you you didn't quite, have the, respect for him that you had when you started off and, i i, i didn't really have that feeling earlier on but i it- when you got into the, the later part and the self-construction and all of that in the marketing of Jarrett and so forth somehow, i came away feeling that, either you, you had felt your, felt him a somewhat diminished figure, or, you weren't, sort of, beefing up, <LAUGH> or you weren't explaining to your readers, that, in fact, you you were e- equally committed to uh his work, after the illusions had been uh, shattered or the masks trampled upon or you know whatever, metaphor you want to use there so, i mean obviously you you said today and you told me this morning that, you kind of, put the whole thing back whole but, could you, say a little bit about that i mean i i i just think that we, i don't think it's a case of uh having to do a whole lot on this but if you do, feel as if you, you came out of this with a renewed, understanding for for Jarrett uh, uh and a great appreciation for his artistry that you could say a little more on that and i_ let let me add just one more thing which i didn't think of this morning when i was saying but i but i went back and looked at this, i'm not sure, that in any of your, comments on specific pieces, that i take away an impression, of your, saying, this is fantastic this is really, <S2 LAUGH> this is great <LAUGH> i mean you know i, i mean you you, you sa- you say this is the process that's going on and so forth but i'm i'm not looking for, (xx) anything smarmy or sentimental or whatever, but, it's like you're really on guard, to show that, i don't know what exactly it's a it's a vexed, it's a slightly vexed position, i think.
S2: it is. <LAUGH> it is a slightly vexed uh position, uh, my choosing to, to do the opening statement this way, uh was trying to trace the the circle that that story made uh i think a- i think that at first i, ran into problems and and um, and these things were articulated uh uh, by the committee and also, from um, uh, from not having enough distance, you know uh to to the to the topic or to to him [S3: mhm ] but by really, uh, by coming to it as uh as a musician who, liked his work you know i mean a few years back i, i uh, would have said i i listen to, to a lot of it and it moves me and so forth but, that was the extent of my, [S3: mhm ] you know, yeah he's a really influential musician for me but it had to do with, musicianship and uh, and uh likes and dislikes which are, uh very, admittedly, subjective so, um so that's were i was coming from 
S3: he had fundamental
S2: yeah
S3: okay
S2: yeah um, i i think you're right i think you're reading it right y- y- ya- that there was trying to avoid that kind of uh, uh exclamation mark uh at the end of my phrases. and uh and the the process of coming full circle with which i concluded the opening remark, is still a very young, uh, uh, process, it's it's still very recent um, and part of it has to do with the fact that uh, that the interviews that we had, uh were so different from, from how interviews, are radiated in in magazines uh, and, uh i asked him about this in fact it all started by me_ my asking him why he wanted_ why the heck he wanted to talk to me, i mean because he really doesn't need to and so forth and, and he said that he likes it when uh when interviewers, aren't out uh, to get him, or or to get something you know to get something that then, uh uh four weeks later comes up in the magazine as him having said some outrageous thing and, and uh, you know and uh he- he- very candidly would address uh things, of that nature that he has said outrageous things and he has contradicted himself and, so what? you know, we do it, people do it it happens. and um, uh in conversation uh with me, uh because i i i wasn't coming from, i wasn't hired to do this i wasn't doing it for a deadline project next week to have it, published, i wasn't out to catch some uh, provocative remark, uh he seemed to uh feel, less defensive so m- my perspective, uh, uh on a lot of those comments that have stirred controversy around him uh have to do with also looking at, the process of how those comments were made and uh and and um, in which situation they were maked and how_ were made and how they were sparked. so um uh, having had the interviews ar- uh is certainly an experience that is, that, is part of uh, rec- rectifying some of that [S3: mhm ] uh, for me of of putting things in perspective. i mean th- there are issues that s- that uh he was said to simply avoid publicly, uh, that that he was very at ease talking about, such as this whole deal about, um, you know him only hi- him always saying, uh i'm not influenced by anyone um i'm my own influence and this kind of thing, which of course itself is a, is a tradition and and and has a history uh among musicians so, what i'm trying to do um i- in the dissertation is, uh expl- uh or show what it, what it does that's right i'm i'm trying to show the process of uh what effects that has, or for instance of of showing that tradition and Bill Evans used to say the same thing, uh i don't comment about the contemporary scene, i don't really listen to other jazz musicians i listen to old music and, and he and what it does to to construct that as an, um, as a as an artistic persona and i i do accept that even using those terms construction and artistic persona, uh, makes it sound very uh sort of intentional, uh like he's trying to, manipulate some image that he has on his drawing board at home and now he, goes about it in the public arena in order to construct that image and that of course isn't the case most of the time that's just a, a bypo- product of what what happens, with this, uh with this product. and i think uh you're also right in, detecting that that process of wanting to, um, wanting to describe the effects and wanting to describe the process, uh of these phenomenons(sic) uh, takes away from, the impulse uh of the, the aesthetic commitment or, or enthusiasm that i that i bring to it. um, uh most of all because uh, i was trying to reach a point where that wouldn't matter, w- whether i, like him or, don't like, u- even though of course, i- it'll impact how i write but um, i was trying to uh to get away from that, and i think i'm only now at the point where i can, let myself like him, <S3 LAUGH> as much as i do, again...
S3: thanks
S1: okay, alright, John (xx)
S5: yeah, um, let me ask you some some technical things that's on the, on the, the note guide here, um... there're a bunch, there- there're many little things in here i'd like you to just take a look at [S2: mhm ] but um would you look at sixty-three for a minute? <P :05> [S3: (xx) had them by side by side ] um, (xx) in the in the middle of the, in the middle of the uh page where you talk about All Right? [S2: mhm... ] and you give this harmonic analysis, um, i, i'm really puzzled by what you said here because you've written the music, you've notated the music in E-flat, but you analyze a chord progression which in E-flat i would've called, five-one-four. that's two-five-one in A-flat. um, and at that point you don't really feel A-flat has been, has has taken over as the tonic do you? i mean this piece is still really really clearly in E-flat major right?
S2: ah. um, uh i- di- y- did you listen to it on the tape?
S5: yeah
S2: i i i i really did i do hear it as A-flat major and in fact one of the reasons why uh why i chose the key signature of three flats instead of four flats, is uh the predominance of the the Lydian scale in A-flat, with the rai- raised fourth [S5: mm ] so i i i mean i might as well have written it, with four flats and then added the natural signs to where the Ds are. [S5: really? hm ] i mean to me the the the cycling point the point at which the point of return is is A-flat.
S5: hm. well, this this to me just sounds like a million, tunes through jazz history that start on four chords
S2: okay
S5: um, you know there're tons of blues tunes for instance, chop off the first four bars of a blues, and use the last eight bars twice [S2: okay ] so they start on a four, and they go, four five one, four five one, and then something like a bridge, [S2: uhuh ] and then, something else, so this didn't this to me, [S2: didn't didn't make sense in A-flat ] didn't ever, never it never threatened E-flat as the key
S2: alright
S5: but maybe i i i don't know maybe maybe i'm, i'm wrong. in any case you said shortly after this, the ruling key signature A, [S2: A-flat major yeah ] flat major of course it isn't.
S2: okay [S5: uh ] yeah, uh i mean that's um, uh, uh i i, that's an easily, fixable, uh [S5: i think ] accentuation because i'm the the point that i'm actually trying to make, is uh, that one dominant key, signature isn't, aban- is never abandoned. [S5: mhm ] right it's never threatened and uh uh, if it makes more sense harmonically to uh, since it ends on E-flat, um a- and to think of the A-flat chord as a four chord to start with, um, the argument is the same [S5: mhm ] the the, the numerals are different
S5: yeah. well, uh, uh, right, but i mean it's like a world of difference [S2: mhm ] to me right? when somebody says two-five-one and i'm hearing, five-one-four [S2: okay, right ] it's really different so i think if you really do hear it that way i mean i i i'd be willing to let you hear it that way, that's fine, <SS LAUGH> but i think, the invocation of something, i mean even to say in here something about the you know the the [S2: yeah ] sort of Lydian A-flat [S2: okay ] character of this, [S2: mhm ] would be okay [S2: mhm ] although you know, the D-flats do appear so, [S2: yes ] okay, um, am i going on here?
S1: go ahead, yeah
S5: okay, here's another thing about keys. page seventy-two... uh, this piece... uh, seems to have practically no B naturals in it... [S2: mhm ] right? [S2: right ] now why is_ why didn't you just notate this with one flat then? is this is this, do you_ is this somehow a, a, a Lydian F or a Dorian D or something it doesn't sound anything like it to me, [S2: mhm ] but here again [S2: mhm ] i mean, you're you're hearing this with different, and better informed ears than i am, but i i just don't see why this isn't in on E-flat? and why these all these accidental B-flats [S2: yeah ] have disappeared?
S2: i i i think what's what's happening is that um, uh, you know that i- it's, it's the same uh, principle that we talked about with the the, A-flat i mean i accept your argument that the A-flat wasn't uh, uh the best solution to to uh, take as a as a start- harmonic starting point [S5: mhm ] but, uh the A-flat a- A-flat with the sharp four, would eliminate the D-flat [S4: mhm ] and it's, it's a similar situation here, with a B uh flat. i, i think of D minor, now so predominantly as not the Aeolian but the, uh the Dorian mode [S5: mhm ] that's and and and when i, uh when i compose, uh th- this is how it started, i i would save myself the hassle of putting, the B-flat in. and maybe that's a little too shorthand 
S5: (well we've been using) this hassle for six or eight hundred years
<SS LAUGH> 
S2: okay, uh, you- you're right i sh- i'll i will, introduce the (xx) <LAUGH>
S5: if we just went through this from a purely statistical point of view, i mean, i mean you think of think of you know Bartok pieces where he'll use a key signature, uh on E-flat and one sharp simply because, he even though it's not conventional, it does describe the picture right? [S2: right ] in some economical way. so i_ to me, not, not doing that seems, seems odd 
S2: okay, okay
S5: okay? can i ask you just a couple more things?
S1: yeah. go.
S5: um
S2: a- y- you're right especially in a context uh where it is so diaton- where it is so so diatonical, [S5: yeah ] through the piece throughout i mean um 
S5: well, you know, there are there is the like the, the A minor ninth chord with a B in it and you know it's just in there for color it's not [S2: mhm... ] that's and there're all there're all those B-flats that are the roots of four chords too so [S2: mhm ] uh, can you, uh let's let's go to My Funny Valentine [S2: mhm ] to to one-sixty-one where that where after the introduction. [S2: mhm ] why don't you zip through this introduction? it's funny how- however, ruminative it may be, [S2: mhm ] it just really whips through it fast. it's interesting. anyway, tell me what what it is you're trying to tell the reader with these chord symbols.
S2: um, uh at some point in the analysis later on i'm uh uh, i'm talking about how uh how Jarrett uh contrasts the, the um, the standard chord changes of of the head with um, [S5: with what he actually played ] with with what he actually plays over it, and to to see that contrast i thought it was beneficial a- add the symbols to um, [S5: okay ] a- but what i'm realizing as you speak, uh what is really an omission is that i didn't give a, a a, a legend that would ex- explain my, is that the word? legend? [S5: sure ] uh, a map that would explain um, my symbols. so i need to i need, to add 
S5: well, i'm not sure that that's necessary but i think it really is necessary, like look at the third measure of the head here you've got what you call a C minor seventh chord there's no B-flat in it but there is an A.
S2: right, but but tha- uh [S5: ah bu but how ] what i'm trying to say 
S5: but how do i know that reading this? if you're if you're saying, look at the way, Jarrett's actual realization of the piece contrasts with the way the piece was composed, [S2: okay ] that's fine. [S2: yeah ] but, that needs to be said [S2: yeah ] really overtly because there's so many places where these chords symbols [S2: don't jive ] disagree with the music 
S2: right absolutely, yeah
S5: uh, and i i mean they're just they're just, it's j- absolutely full of them [S2: yeah ] and there're places like um,
S2: so so you would say that i- before the transcription
S5: before the transcription?
S3: you say it after don't you [S2: yeah yeah ] 
S5: yeah it's there, i mean i 
S3: it's in the text 
S2: oh really?
S3: it's in the text here
S2: it is in the text?
S5: no i, i i (skimmed) (xx) it slipped by me.
S2: no, no i think you're right it's not before the transcription (ends.) 
S5: um <P :05> okay well tha- that's gonna resolve a lot of this because i'm i was just looking at this and i'm thinking well you know th- there's an E-flat major seven yeah but the bass is sitting down on D-flat <LAUGH> [S2: right ] for two bars. [S2: right ] but but since you're referring back to the original of this, then that brings up one other thing
S2: c- may i may i, uh [S5: sure ] interject one thing, th- the- one of my, bigger arguments about, Jarrett the jazz improviser is, that he uses um, he uses the uh, the format of these jazz standards, [S5: mhm ] as a basis uh for, some minimally restricted free improvisation. [S5: mhm ] and a- this is this harkens back to what you were saying, uh uh about how different certain aspects of his career look, and my arguing that there is a very strong underlying continuity, and one of the continuities is fascination with, free improvising with not preparing anything. [S5: mhm ] so, all you need to do, from his perspective, um to play this music is, uh these three guys know, the changes for My la- Funny Valentine, he starts playing his intro, he plays eight measures of the head, that's all we need to know [S5: mhm ] to know that we are dealing with My Funny Valentine, and off he goes, an- uh, and and the the, the way he, stays within the chord changes and then, m- moves, outside of them, and then on top of it adding this these extensions these freely improvised, extros to [S5: mhm ] to to the music, um uh really point towards the fact that it's not about playing successive strands of thirty-two bar choruses, that it's really about just using this as a minimal launching point, for free improvisation and to point that out i intended to, to show how strongly they disagree, how strongly what he does with it, uh disagrees with the standard changes that, [S5: mhm ] that outline the piece.
S5: well that that, that's perfectly fine i think that's, that's a good thing to do. one last thing i wanted to ask you about this is, why you quote, the Real Book version of this piece rather than the original music. [S2: okay. ] the Real Book version, uh i mean, this may be the way a whole lot of people these days learn this piece, [S2: mhm ] but um... [S3: it's not the original ] well, it's not the original and for instance the Real Book version doesn't doesn't have the chromatically descending bass line, which y- i mean [S2: right. which everybody does anyway ] clearly it's it's implied and it doesn't have like the, you know the G here and the, the E-flat here and all this stuff th- th- [S2: right ] that we all go out and do on Saturday night. [S2: right ] um, i'm wondering if it would make more sense just to quote the original, of, the original of the piece or conceivably even this and the original.
S2: okay. i think that's a very good suggestion. at this point in my argument uh, i- uh, the the reason for the Real Book version, uh, was um my talking about rhythmic displacements, [S5: mhm ] of of notes uh so i wasn't for instance concerned about the harmonies [S2: mhm ] in fact i could have wiped out the chord changes for this, that that wasn't, what i was going after at this point. it was about rhythmic dip- displacement of the melody [S5: mhm ] uh, uh is that different, in the original, [S5: no ] music as well?
S5: well it may be, different in some [S2: mhm mhm ] very minute ways but it's it's not very different. in any case if you need the original music [S2: great ] i think i have it, so
S2: yeah. i i'd like to
S5: um my other stuff is just little, little nitpicky fussy stuff that you can deal with, at your leisure
S2: okay, great.
S1: okay
S5: oh, one one thing about, about the abstract, [S1: yeah ] there's this mysterious sentence in here. um <READING> his work within the jazz idiom can be interpreted as specifically addressing </READING> <P :05> [S2: oh my, i think you didn't get ] and that's all there is 
S2: you didn't get the um, 
S4: we all have that
S2: we all have that? oh my gosh
S5: well
S4: computer ate it up 
S2: yes. computer uh, slaughter
<SS LAUGH> 
S2: uh, [S5: well that's ] i am sorry
S5: well, i'm sure that's very fixable 
S2: okay yeah 
S3: let me just [S2: i'm talk- talking about ] tell you one other one other thing about the um, abstract which i somehow i i did a little writing on and then i forgot to bring it i_ must have fallen out, or something but, i think it would be good, uh to say something about the sources of your, [S2: mhm ] i i mean in an abstract for a dissertation i think it's always a good thing to include, what is this based on? is it based on listening, periodical literature, interviews? you know whatever, so, just, stick that in somewhere.
S2: okay
S4: this is what you get for vocalizing while you type. <LAUGH> get to jump out
S2: yeah
S1: Nicolas?
S4: i i i'm_ you're lucky i can't nitpick because i picked up the wrong version, you should have color-coded them. they were [S1: oh ] next to each other at home and i picked up the wrong one. [S1: oh ] [S2: oh, oh ] so, so i can't quote your chapter in verse and i will have to rely on my memory. um, uh, i i i'll give you some, some minor comments, on the margins but, here this, uh, let me just ask you a couple of k- questions uh, actually you know, it just occur- occurred to me i was going to ask you the same thing about My Funny, Valentine, since this is illegal it's doubly illegal, <LAUGH> probably, if you were worried about copyright right? this book is illegal to begin with.
S5: uh the Real Book?
S4: yeah.
S5: it's illegal to produce it's not illegal to own it
S4: but it's illegal to, reproduce something that's illegal isn't it?
S5: uh not unless you're gonna sell it to somebody
S4: but i mean, in, in in in [S2: yeah i uh ] if you wanted to publish it you couldn't reproduce from the Real Book 
S2: the whole, the whole dissertation 
S5: no, when this when this becomes published, Christoph will have to [S4: yeah yeah (permission for) ] seek the publishers permission even, even for this, uh
S3: especially for this
S2: well the dissertation is full of copyrighted material and i mean the the (record's covers all of) 
S4: no that's fine 
S3: you're not gonna be able to to give this in to the University Microfilms are you?
S2: uh i i will be able to do that um, if i mark off the, box that it's not for sale yet
S3: oh. yeah.
S2: that it's just for the record
S3: mhm
S4: mhm
S2: and that's legal
S3: and people have to come to you for the [S2: right ] copy. they can't sell it
S2: yeah. uh it's just uh i haven't had the time to go through that whole process.
S4: you just asked_ i'm still a little unclear about, the role of free jazz and all of in in in in in in um, whatever, you know what i mean, by that. um in in in uh, in in the way in which you've, described this because, um, you allude to, to Ornette Coleman at, a number of places, and then you discuss rather interestingly Paul Bley. and i just wonder, how how they, uh, they really function in this because, part of the problem, was brought up by Jarrett's own statements, as you've j- already mentioned a couple of times, that it's his denial, quote unquote of his, of his roots and then, your, uh uh searching for, the historical background of his work, and, i suppose that part of this would_ one would've never attempted part of this is if he hadn't said these things. um, but, w- w- w- w- w- what is interesting here is for instance, you talk about if i remember correctly about, the two saxophone work as being, going back to Ornette Coleman, and that puzzled me, that is i don't still don't understand, you mentioned Coleman's influence a number of times but you never specify what it is if i remember correctly except for that one statement. and that puzzled me because, you referred to f- to, the double quartet, but this isn't really a two saxophone front line that's it's a, four instrument fr- front line and the two saxophones don't have any particular, [S2: mhm ] uh a role in that, and it seems to me that at least in the fifties and sixties, two saxophone, front lines were, rather common and the kind of interplay you're talking about was much more, uh, uh prominent in in, actually in more traditional forms of beeb- sort of neobop or hard bop and so forth or, uh there were so many uh double saxophone groups especially tenor groups at the time and so forth. i wondered why you chose Ornette Col- that that that is the only influence i remember of Ornette Coleman that you actually mention specifically (in it.) why that?
S3: mhm
S2: um, uh uh your your comment brings out_ your question brings out that i need to be more precise uh uh on on why i'm uh, uh drawing that comparison. it's actually not about having two two saxophones specifically it's about having two lead wind instruments, um uh, uh that, uh, are uh set in an instrumentation that avoids piano. so um uh Coleman's ensembles with uh Don Cherry on trumpet, uh are are just as much a resource for me, than the double quartets, be- because the issue is, uh free improvisation in a setting, uh in which two melodic uh uh improvisers, play simultaneously, uh, with uh, without the, the chordal, underpinnings of of, of the piano.
S4: if i remember correctly you you you you specifically referred to, to free jazz with the two saxophone, for for his work with Charles Lloyd. and, [S2: mhm ] that is not, a very good example because uh, that's a four instrument front line, actually and, uh the the two trumpets, it's a double quartet. 
S2: mhm, yeah, (xx) 
S3: where is that, Nicolas?
S4: uh i don't have the page number yeah uh uh um 
S3: yeah i know you don't have the page number i mean is it 
S4: it's early on in the dissertation
S3: which, it's in chapter one, isn't it? 
S3: i'm sorry yes i think so but, it it seems to me if you start you you le- didn't articulate it that way and so perhaps you might, want to make it clearer because then of course you get into the whole Gerry Mulligan, Chet Baker quartet and also, in the more free jazz vein with two, uh, wind instrum- uh uh uh, two uh, mm uh woodwind instruments you've got, there was a group, um that Prince Lasha you know a post C- Ornette kind of thing Prince Lasha and Sonny Simmons had which had two saxophones or even, one played English horn and the other one played, alto clarinet they were multi-instrumentalists all of them in fact, but unusual ones because they played double reeds and, and alto clarinet which hardly anyone plays, that um, made quite a num- uh qu- some interesting recordings at the time and so forth, so there was much more of that going on and and that would (probably not) but, the other thing is, is it brings me to another question which, in a way elliptically leads back to Saint Vitus Paul Bley's influence because, you know, one thing that i found missing here is, Paul Bley had a quarte- ha- two groups one of which you mention, only in passing, which is relevant here which is that, the origin of the um, Ornette Coleman quartet is actually, the Paul Bley quintet. [S2: right ] um, and, the other one is, hi- his next group which which was a quartet with John Gilmore, Gary Peacock and Paul Motian. um, and that is essentially, very much uh uh the not only the instrumentation of his American and, other quartet but if you listen to it, the singsong melodies the combination of kind of free jazz and standards and so forth, but it it's a fascinating_ this is from nineteen sixty-eight sixty-nine, um, this group, because we now think of uh of Paul Bley, cuz of his E-C-M recordings and so forth but, his early work is quite different, [S2: mhm ] and is part of the neglected roots of quote unquote free jazz actually. and um
S2: we- uh, the album Footloose that i talk about is, uh, i don't know the date offhand but it is one of the early ones 
S4: it's a trio recording, though [S2: right ] the thing wa- that he he uh, Bley had his own, record company for a while Improvising Artists in which he released, uh these live recordings of, with Ornette Coleman, s- from, from before, Ornette made any recordings with Atlantic but also he re- he released um, some some uh concert recordings wi- of this quartet with John Gilmore w- then with Sun R- became essentially, Sun Ra's tenor saxophone player for for the rest his life. and, it's surprisingly, uh, uh, it's surprising how in- how how how how how uh similar in concept this quartet is to at least, the s- s- some of uh, Jarrett's quartet recordings. [S2: mhm ] so uh when you say that, Paul Bley's influence uh on on Jarrett has been underestimated, uh i think you might want to probe a little deeper into this, [S2: mhm ] because Bley is also a kind of chameleon-like figure. [S2: mhm ] he has this, uh this uh, uh romantic uh tr- standard side, and as well as, uh, as as this free jazz im- free improvisation side. and, an- an- and also a cantankerous uh <LAUGH> [S2: yeah ] self uh um, sort of uh presentation side to him which, in many ways parallels Jarrett of course, [S2: right which i address actually ] yes. well in his case it's sort of slightly uh colored by a kind of bitterness of lack of recognition [S2: mhm ] rather than overexposure but [S2: yeah ] um, but y- y- you might want to, expand that a little bit because i think you you lean towards it but you don't, re- de- dig, deep into it. the other thing i, would suggest um, remember i mentioned to you that uh, when you talk about, Braxton solo work, i- i i'm, a- a- as the background for for for for for for Jarrett i i wonder if you wouldn't want to um, s- locate it historically just a little, more precisely that is, the influence that Braxton seems to have had, not just on Jarrett but on others, instrumentalists of the time that is, when this whole, s- this whole uh, fashion for solo recordings started, uh, practically everyone acknowledges Braxton when you uh jus- uh Evan Parker uh Steve Lacy all these people say that they, started doing this because, they heard Braxton doing this. and it's not only in recordings it was Braxton's solo concerts.
S3: you're talking about wind players
S4: wind players yes, b- but uh but uh but there're also pianists of course who were doing this, since time immemorial uh, but but but this idea of recording these solo, album lengths, so i mean in Braxton's case they were all double albums, uh, of of solo work and also Braxton talks about this, extensively in the liner notes to, to uh his uh s- s- second or third long one the um, what is it, nineteen seventy-nine, [S2: mhm ] so, he he actually, expresses very cogently his reasons for doing this which you might, [S2: uhuh ] wan- wan- want to, uh look into [S2: yes ] but, but it actually became as you point out kind of a rite of passage among the A-A-C-M that people had to give these solo concerts. and Muhal Richard Abrams also did them, [S2: mhm ] on piano, uh and recorded, a number of them but in Japan, cuz nobody would record him, [S2: mhm ] in the States so, uh, but i i i would like to see you, if you're if y- if you want to pursue this to to to really contextualize this just a little bit more, [S2: mhm ] that is wha- wha- what was going on because, uh th- th- this was a determined effort it wasn't just a a chance thing that some people were making solo [S2: right ] recordings a- and (doing this) and and and especially among the A-A-C-M people there were ideological reas- or he stated ideologic reasons for this. um, but but but Braxton's about uh- bu-bu- bu- but uh to me Jarrett's about the only one who doesn't say specific quite the opposite s- i just, got this from the spheres rather than, saying that, [S2: actually you know tha- i- ] (there was this very) specific
S2: yeah this was one of the, the things i i haven't completely transcribed the uh, the, the interviews with him yet but this was very specifically something that he did ad- did address uh um, uh saying that, the A-A-C-M and uh, that he was looking at the A-A-C-M at the time as as something, interesting musically that he that he drew from. i mean he uh i was surprised by how little, shy he was to acknowledge that connection when so many public statements, uh, veer away from that, so
S4: well this is what surprised me i mean, i- i- it's interesting that he's, more than anyone else he has, uh i mean of course the media has used him but he has used the media. and, why is it that he has now switched, talking to you he speaks in a completely different tongue?
S2: no there are lots of uh i- interviews where he uh, uh talks like that before as well it's just the uh the ones where, uh he pronounces his refusal of artistic lineage uh are more eye-catching or ear-catching. the- they're simply, they, they're more heard. i mean there're plenty plenty of interviews that that express that. i think um, they're usually interviews in which he was uh, felt, cornered, uh uh about that issue, and i think what's also coming through is that as much as he comes out of the free, uh jazz e- uh era and i- is invested in in, in uh, the processes of freely improvising, uh he also um, he he dislikes, the interpretation of free jazz as being, taken uh to be an avoidance of a, a a categorical avoidance of harmonic, structures and tonal language. um, uh in other words, and and the the, when i saw him last week he was, dancing around this very carefully to uh to make sure he he didn't, come out saying, that he thinks Roscoe Mitchell is recording what he is recording because he, can't, play uh uh within tonal structures or over chord changes or so forth, but he was, he he was, avoiding saying that and reverting it back to himself saying, um, uh, well uh not to pass pa- pass judgment on on anybody else uh i i i guess i was very greedy i guess i wanted, more i wanted free improvising but I also wanted tonality i also wanted uh, uh harmony i also wanted, transitory moments of chord changes that then would dissolve again and so forth. so that there was uh clearly this intent to to say, uh yes this was the the spark that, that launched my entire, uh uh idea of how to improvise how to go about playing, uh but it was also something uh, that he, felt was dissatisfactory to his own, tastes, that it was that that much of A-A-C-Ms music uh, was so clearly defined within uh, within the parameters of uh, atonal, uh, nontonal, improvisation, uh sort of with this cliche of being very dissonant, that kind of thing. so he sought uh to to, to revert to tonal structures, within freely improvised settings, rather than um, seeing those, uh, as exclusives of each other.
S4: we- i i i think that he just doesn't listen very, much to, the Art Ensemble of Chicago or to Lester Bowie's recordings because they, especially in their let see after the early sixties their work, their whole concerts consist of passages where they do whole [S2: right i ] tunes and rhythm and blues 
S2: i i analyzed one of those pieces [S4: yeah ] actually b- w- w- the reggae piece that th- that they do on on one of the the uh E-C-M recordings, um, uh... w- whether he uh, uh sees that as a judgment of of the Art Ensemble of Chicago or the A-A-C-M in general whether that's a broad uh, uh perspective uh i don't uh i don't know i i can't judge that from what he's told me but uh, b- but the impression that i get is that he, got very tired of a certain sound of free jazz, and uh was very vocal about it and in his case it led, to him, avoiding, uh uh naming the A-A-C-M as some revolutionary impulse on him, um because he didn't care for much of the music that came out of that, uh but yet was very impressed with the impulses that led to that music, and tried to uh and saw himself very much in the same context, as that.
<P :04> 
S4: do you think he's manipulating you? <P :04> [S2: n- n- ] no it's not it's not i'm i'm not, yeah i ask you this quite honestly that is that he, talks differently to different, uh 
S2: no i think we all talk differently to different people but, um my impr- my impression was simply that he, he was, uh uh, he was trying to say that yes he has a lot to do with that, w- but but he doesn't like much of what came out of it, so he uh, he didn't make it a big deal in his public statements to say yes I owe a lot to A-A-C-M [S4: mm ] or i owe a lot to this uh impulse of, of free jazz because stylistically he went into such a different direction. maybe that some of these uh, statements were uh uh, poorly chosen on his part but i'm trying to, not evaluate that i i was i was trying to look at the fact that, uh he he does acknowledge uh an affinity, and even an involvement uh uh, with practices, that came to the fore through the A-A-C-M, he talked in one interview he talked about uh, having done a tour with the Art Ensemble of Chicago, uh in the late sixties which i wasn't aware of, where they were, traveling from city to city, doing the same gigs, so and and and he wasn't uh in any way defensive about acknowledging that i think that uh, some of these statements um, of denial have come about as ways of saying uh, uh uh uh, uh ha- have come about as him really feeling that he doesn't like much of that music. and and the way it comes out is, by not saying, these are my musical heroes or something like that
S4: well i- may i say this that that that as a result that you might want to reintegrate because of the obviously the the interview you did with him or interviews were done at the very end, [S2: right ] it's not fully integrated into, the the work [SU-M: (xx) ] because, i i only know of i mean yes i've in passing read his uh, interviews with him but i really haven't memorized them, and i knew them on- primarily through reading, your, your work and um uh the the the notion that_ of his denials etcetera of his lineage, they came out very forcefully in the way you presented [S2: right ] his, and i had no idea that that that, all along he had been saying other things as well um and so, i i think you have to make because you've made an issue of that, and then played against [S2: right ] that so you now have to, temper that it seems to me, [S2: yeah ] um
S2: good point yeah i i th- i mean first of all you're right to that i need to integrate my interviews uh but also, uh it's true that i f- played off of that denial notion because it is it is that, most visible pole o- uh with, from which that controversy uh
S4: right and then it [S2: pans out ] struck me that now he's saying completely the opposite but now you're only now telling us, that he's actually been, uh saying these [S2: right right ] contradictory things all along
S2: what i do in the text is, show, that there are, uh that there is another side to that, rather than, uh putting it into his words that's very true, i think what i can add is that uh, that is not only something that he has done, uh uh throughout his career that it's also something that he, has addressed at various points. and it's uh it's interesting i'm not uh, sure whether you're familiar with the Edward Strickland interviews uh that were done for the Fanfare Magazine, um uh Strickland was very much, somebody that uh, he f- uh, whatever were the circumstances of the interview but it was a very uh easygoing interview and he liked Strickland and he liked how they were um, uh relating to each other and uh it's it tends to be those interviews that he, says, those kinds of things. uh and it tends to be interviews such as with Jim Aikin in in in the Keyboard Magazine, uh uh where he gets more defensive because 
S4: or the New York Times Magazine (or the) 
S2: right right the
S4: so no- no- no- now Wynton is going to, Wynton Marsalis is going to send Stanley Crouch to, knock him out
<SS LAUGH> 
S2: uh i wanted to say uh uh one more thing about the uh Ornette Coleman reference uh, you you went on to the, the Bley um, aspect and i didn't have a chance to comment on that um, uh y- uh when you talked about Paul Bley you were talking about how, the musicians Bley was with, then uh, uh later played with with Jarrett and that, you know in order to point out how important that that influence is, and i agree, uh, but that was also one of the reasons why i did choose, uh uh Coleman as a as an example because both uh Charlie Haden and, and Dewey Redman, which then were part of, uh um Jarrett's American quartet which really was the first, the first ens- ensemble that he, uh, came to a reputation with as a leader, um, were musicians that had uh that had played with, with Coleman. so my my reference to Coleman is not only that there's some instrumentational, similarity going on here, uh but it's it's in the same manner as the Paul Bley uh quintet, it's uh it's a trading of musicians that that went on, which uh, which of course doesn't only mean that these people bring their their styles uh, uh to to the band but it also means that they bring, the sh- conceptually sh- shared background with them, um, which was forged or imp- influenced, by um, their work with with Ornette Coleman.
S4: but but but i- i- would pr- like to see if these are suggest that you- that you dig a little deeper that is wh- when you say, you talk about someone's influence such as Coleman i would like to know what that influence is in purely musical terms and not simply, shared musicians the same thing for instance you mentioned Brubeck a number of times that he has acknowledged, Brubeck's [S2: right ] influence but nowhere, did i, re- remember reading in any specific way, how Brubeck's, musicianship, what what he found interesting in Brubeck's playing i mean when you do an analysis of 
S2: yes i'm talking about uh, about uh voicings and chordal structures and 
S4: but but in My Funny Valentine for instance when you talk about the whole baroque issues i mean it, all of those things could be found in early Brubeck recordings where he does these things, [S2: mhm ] uh, uh you know, quite, [S2: right ] blatantly and so forth, so i i would like to see there's more, just more s- s- es- s- s- more specifics in this kind of, uh analysis but that's you know that's up to you [S2: mhm ] but but um, same thing for example with Bill Evans when you have these long rubato introductions well late Bill Evans you know you sort of wait there, for hours until he gets to the tune, and you know and the drummer and bassist is half asleep i mean fall asleep but, but i mean you know he had these long [S2: right ] rubato introductions and so forth, um, uh so i- you know i- these specifics might be, helpful in [S2: mhm ] but in any case i- i'll give you some, [S2: mhm ] minor little things...
S1: okay?
S6: Christoph um, now that you have, uh these extensive you know this volume of, liturgies that you've done recently, um, i'm just curious has, has he talked about his say his jazz training? and i mean we know he went to Berklee, [S2: mhm ] um uh the influences on th- along those lines i mean like did he transcribe, did he ever go through like, did he ever talk about going through a period of, you know, copying, like [S2: mhm ] most everyone has done, is that something you got into at all? [S2: mhm ] (xx)
S2: um, as for uh i'm, before i answer uh uh i'm just remembering um... um, Gary Bergman saying, y- you know Gary Bergman is wh- wh- whatever he is now Associate Dean or Dean of Curriculum i believe at the Berklee School of Music, and um, uh, you know i associate Berklee with uh with um, a heavy dose of transcriptions and, formulaic approaches uh to to scalar material and, you know uh uh, at CAL Arts we used to call it, uh the jazz factory you know and and and of setting CAL Arts from that, a little bit. but um, uh, however that is it's interesting that uh, that um, Gary Bergman said that he never transcribed a single solo and he never, uh uh, encourages anyone to, transcribe a solo. uh
S3: yeah but what do Deans have to say about the curriculum?
<SS LAUGH> 
S2: well anyway, the the point that i'm, um making uh there is that um, uh, that th- th- this issue of uh how, how do you learn jazz um, is- is obviously, controversial even among those that, teach it, as as you, know, best of all. but um, uh, uh he always talked about his jazz learning uh with me as a as simply having been um playing, playing with uh with performers playing i mean obviously the the experiences with, uh Charles Lloyd and and uh Miles David(sic) but uh but before also, the Blakey experience uh, uh, uh were crucial for for him uh the Blakey band mm, is often addressed in connection with Jarrett as as having been a band that didn't work out and or Blakey said that himself and that Jarrett somehow didn't fit in it and uh, and that Jarrett was bored with the rest of the group um so it's generally being portrayed as some, as a bit of a frustrating or a negative experience, and um, uh he has acknowledged that also as, as a kind of a school, nonetheless, for him, uh uh not only the experience of actually touring with_ that was his first touring ensemble, but also uh stylistically of fitting in with these uh musicians that for him that was a kind of a training. [S6: mhm ] so i don't think that uh in that in his case was ac- was ever a matter of um, um uh, really following through with uh transcription and analysis in a very, uh systematic, uh- m- uh manner apart from, performing with people. [S6: hm ] i mean there's a h- a heavy emphasis on uh, on you know it's done in the doing, [S6: yeah ] it's not done in the classroom.
S6: except yeah yeah, i- it's just interesting because, y- uh we know he studied classical music [S2: right ] from when he was very young, and so we have kind of a clear sense of okay you know you have this and there's this body of literature and you, learn it and that but, but i mean by time_ the thing is when he played with Art Blakey i mean by that time, i mean sure i i you know he learned, with Blakey and Lloyd and all those people but [S2: so what happened before? what what happened, right, right ] [S3: with 'em in the first place? ] i mean he had_ yeah because he had to yeah i think you know <LAUGH> uh, i'm just i'm just sorta curious about it i'm not you know uh
S4: how old was he?
S2: uh, um wait Blakey was um, sixty, five so he was twenty. i think he may have started sixty-four so, that would've been nineteen.
S6: he was nineteen when he played with Blakey 
S2: nineteen 
S6: so just out of, just when he just quit with Berklee or did he?
S2: yeah uh Berklee was uh sixty-two sixty-three.
S6: so he was like seventeen or eighteen when that (xx) 
S2: um right yeah, yeah. and i uh uh really don't quite know how that worked because it occurred to me afterwards that um, um, that that doesn't quite work out with high school, does it? but um th- th- for instance th- the [S4: (that record he had) ] first that record that says um, his first record uh where he plays in a in a, uh big band setting, organized, um uh wrote up on the liner notes that he was at Berklee and he in fact wasn't at Berklee yet, when that recording was made. so and and and uh i found uh conflicting timelines about, what year he actually was at Berklee. some say it was sixty-two sixty-three some say it was sixty-three sixty-four, and uh whenever that first album was made uh, uh some people take, take their timeline from that but the problem is, [S4: cuz he wasn't ] that he wasn't at Berklee at that time
S4: i bet you that the problem is academic year versus calendar year we think of, calendar years and liner note writers think of aca- uh we think of academic years, liner note writers think of 
S2: yeah, that may be part of the, yeah, yeah. well but to address that that question how do you get to play with um, with Art Blakey um... um, one thing that he addresses is uh, listening i ge- uh you know a lot of listening uh for instance the uh his whole uh, affirmation of the connection to Paul Bley is uh is through this, especially this one recording, [S6: mhm, yeah ] through through Footloose. i mean i i can relate to to the idea of uh, uh, uh, of having a very few select albums that you really, go crazy over, uh rather than sort of uh covering a certain, canon you know of of something i mean we may look at it as as researchers you know we have, you know here's the discography so and so but um, uh, what it seems to boil down to in the learning process is is a few very, select records that he, just, practically memorized and and played with, as as he listened and, and one of those was Footloose by Paul Bley and one of them was Abbey Road by the Beatles. <LAUGH>
S6: because you know he s- he so comfortable, playing, you know i- in pl- it sounds like he didn't play standards for a while and then, just moving into that i mean it's really, i mean kind of going back to Bob's point like the i mean- if i were to say this is just mind-blowing you know like the the the [S2: right the standards ] (My Funny Valentine) uh, it's inter- i mean cuz there's a Miles Davis version of that which also just incredibly, unique [S2: yeah ] in its own way and um and i would put this, in that same, somewhere in that same [S2: yeah ] ballpark it's really, i mean and and this- it just just hearing that again when you ga- gave us that tape it just struck me how, uh, i mean he n- he not only played the tune well but it was just just this sense of freedom, on the, just, you know very interesting rhythmic concept but it was some you know just a, just a layer of, improvising [S2: mhm ] on that [S2: mhm ] level that he had attained that just you know comes from playing for a long time. but what 
S2: c- c- can i say can i interject one thing there? um i uh, uh brings that out uh i believe very much that the standards couldn't have happened any earlier. and i i think that the the the standards are, for lack of a better word sort of the mature, stage of_ i mean when he came to that, i- it was using resources not only of having, played standards when he was um, sixteen, but but of everything else he went through, and in in that's uh in other words playing, folk rock playing Dylan songs playing, uh Beatles songs or uh uh, going through the free um, uh f- through free improvisatory processes doing the solo recitals and so forth. and it all came together uh in the standards, and i- in that lies, a certain personal truth of this um, uh denying the answers <LAUGH> (xx) uh issue because i believe that uh his having played all these other musics is a has, influenced how he plays standards in other words he's learned to play standards not just by practicing, standards, but by practicing all the other things, that came then came out in the in the standards. so that that that is very much uh, it's just a a formula but i don't mean that, with a negative connotation it's a it's a, it's a way, of putting all the ingredients in the pot. and and and and that took, twenty years, to get
S3: well it's finding another pot to put the ingredients in 
S2: yeah but maybe the the pot he feels more strongly, about, [S3: yeah ] you know. so so uh i it may be some of this, provocative controversial stuff about i've not being influenced by anything and anybody, also was a way of saying look, i play standards having played, Dylan, you know or or i mean i- and that's that it shows in how i phrase and so forth so you could just as well say, i um my jazz playing has been influenced by Dylan as much as it's been influenced by Brubeck. and in one uh in uh one interview he told me you know that this whole influence thing it's so absurd i i could start naming, um you know pianists i really don't like that indirectly though also have influenced me uh in in how i make choices. and then he g- went off on this and now i forgot the name of this uh piano comedian wh- what is this popular 
S3: Victor Borge?
S4: Victor Borge?
S2: yes, he said you know i've i've b- i would have to name him too, <SS LAUGH> you know, so so uh
S4: Borge's funnier
S2: so <SS LAUGH> so the idea was [S3: i'm surprised he laughed ] to to uh, summarize you know to use jazz standards playing as a as a sort of a summary, of musical experiences that were very varied and m- many of which were outside jazz
S3: i think there should be at least a chapter on Victor Borge 
S1: on Victor Borge 
<SS LAUGH> 
S4: back to the drawing board
S6: so, um can i, one more
S2: yeah i'm sorry i interrupted you
S6: no that's alright um, so i wonder if maybe we could s- shift a little bit to something a little bit more open uh, could you talk a little bit about, how this dissertation might be a spring board for, some other areas that, you're gonna pursue, either related to J- Jarrett or not possibly [S2: mhm ] that um, i'm a little bit curious about what you're going to do with all this um you've got probably hours and hours of, of interviews so, [S2: mhm ] in fact you, you happen to mention, n- d- i- in the passing i think once that, that you know you may do something further with Jarrett, but um, either talk about that or if there're some some windows that have been opened in this, that um you might, explore.
S2: mhm... wow, that's an interesting question um, y- you know i me- i mean of- th- the first thing that comes to my mind is this may be, a little off the wall but the first thing that comes to mind is um, this has done a lot for me as a musician and and but i haven't had the time, to actually be a musician uh uh so so i'm looking forward to how this will transpire in my, practice and in my, my playing. this, really doesn't have much to do with, the academic part but the musician was sort of on hold for a year and, and uh i- uh bu- in a good way i think that it it can do a lot of, of that um, uh w- w- what i what i've, learned is uh in in closer detail or one of the things i've learned, in closer detail to understand how this uh collage is woven together, you know um, what are the mechanics of uh, say moving from that My Funny Valentine introduction to um, to the soloing that then ensues over the over the chord changes. and one of the things that really were surprising to me is after i had made the transcription is, the predominance of that uh, diatonic uh uh of the diatonic uh material in other words staying within the C minor scale for, you know, almost half the performance uh uh, and yet it soun- it doesn't sound like that the melody notes are s- are are like that but what's going on is is highly chromatic underneath it. and um, that was something that i didn't understand just, by putting on a record and listening to it it's i i needed to see this and i needed to go wow there are, what, three hundred measures were all he's doing in his right hand is a C minor scale, and when i first came t- to jazz i, you know one of the things that attracted me is the, the the possibility of being more chromatic and, and less, tonal. so um understanding the mechanics of of that kind of improvisation and how he creates um, a longer arch of suspension or l- longer energy curve, that isn't really contained in clearly separable, um, uh, sixteen or thirty-two bar, choruses, um, was really interesting for me to find that out through research and i think it's, it's gonna end up, sounding, as well. in terms of uh a research project, i think um what i'd like to do is uh, possibly go to some other musicians and see um, see how, similar issues are handled, not in order to see whether they're doing the same thing and if they're not doing the same thing then it's not as good but, but i think that these issues uh impact any improviser, uh uh, an- and that was the launching point for my comparison with um of the solo concerts with Indian music is that there is a need, in in vernaculars uh predominantly improvised, uh to deal with form in a in a, in a creative manner and um, and one obvious solution uh for form in in uh, improvised music um, is cycles such as in Indian music, uh, and uh, in in his since he doesn't deal with that theory uh ye- you know on a on a conscious and in a strict stylistic manner, uh one of his solutions is uh uh s- s- this internalized sense of, of timing <AUDIO DISTURBANCE> and it's something that i, from my studying Indian music was very aware of, in Indian music but to find it reappear in these in this uh in these solo concerts was, uh, not something that i s- i mean i really had to see whether this was going to hold water and i i was a little surprised that it did uh uh i kind of didn't expect that research to come to that point. so i'd like to um uh f- find out more about how uh improvising musicians, um, uh deal with that other ins- improvising, uh, musicians deal with that. and i i think you know in the long run this uh, research could be, uh could be strengthened by going through the same, process with re- the respect to different concerts uh i just thought that that would, that i mean that, that's uh that's a lot to go through um and and i i i've pointed out that you know some of it happens in the Koln concert some of it happens in the La Scala concert and some of it happens in the, in the Kyoto concert but the detailed analysis was primarily about one of 'em, um but uh it's very systematic and that's one of those interesting uh paradoxes for me with Jarrett is that, it all seems so divergent you know playing jazz standards and playing Bach uh Bach's We- Well-Tempered uh, Clavier and, and um, and then playing Arvo Part and uh Lou Harrison and then doing fr- free improvisations with uh, uh his American quartet and then playing these folk-like melodies with the European quartet. but, these impulses uh uh really carry through all those divergent areas, eras and um, uh he tends to not do any of 'em anymore, uh simultaneously, and uh i mean for all we know he may stick with this, jazz standards trio. it's really amazing with, uh you know how with how few musicians he, performs he performs either alone or with Gary Peacock and and Jack DeJohnnette, or with orchestras and that's pretty much it at the at the moment. um, so there is a strong underlying continuity and to uh to find out how that, uh carries through um maybe different uh, phases of his work um, for instance to in-depth in-depth compare you know the La Scala process of temporal development with the K- Koln concert, uh would be interesting, [SU-M: mhm mhm ] and then to see how that uh figures out in, in other uh in other musicians, improvising i mean, i mentioned that Chick Corea's, uh, were the first solo piano recordings on E-C-M, and that there must have been some kind of, uh, well if not rivalry but at least, you know there was something going on between these two pianists, um, doing s- very similar thing around the same time.
S1: i, um, i'll be brief cuz uh, we're really kind of out of out of time so <LAUGH> um, w- one uh just a couple of things, h- uh having read earlier versions and then reading this version some things uh struck me that didn't strike me before, and uh one was this whole issue about the comparison between the alap the Indian the uh Shankar alap and, and the timing in terms of the solo concerts, and on page one forty-eight, and it seems to me this brings up a lot of, issues and y- s- you don't seem to, be quite sure how to, talk about this. [S2: mhm ] uh, on one forty-eight, you say uh <READING> the description of Jarrett's relationship with North Indian music, suggests that his format of freely improvised solo concerts was developed in part, through a conceptual borrowing from classical Indian traditions. </READING> well i mean that's one way of, that's one, possible interpretation but then in other places you say, well uh, this has to do with the nature of improvisation itself and you have to have these struct- you sort of imply that there's something innate, in in, these these, timing systems that are going through an impro- uh i can't remember exactly where [S2: mhm ] you say that but you do, in in other words you don't seem quite how, know, quite how to handle, this similarity. [S2: mm ] uh, i- i- i- there's a certain ambi- i felt a certain ambiguity in, in, um, in what the meaning of this parallel is. and i wondered if, you wanted to, [S2: mhm ] or if there's no ambiguity in your mind and i was just perceiving that there's a- ambivalence here about, what does it mean?
S2: mhm. well, i uh i think what it means, in particular uh, with respect to Jarrett is that uh, he loves Indian music he listened to it, he started the solo concerts at a time that was, very much under the, the star [S1: oh ] of uh
S1: well then you're sticking to this tradition that it's a borrowing.
S2: uh yes 
S1: you're sticking to this interpretation 
S2: yes but uh uh but i'm also saying that he's not uh he never consciously tried to do that. i uh he he never came out and said i'm using alap structures uh to apply uh, uh in in my solo concerts in fact i i i i doubt that he would have, ever conceptualized it on that level so therefore what i'm saying [S1: uhuh ] is there is a similar need, in uh, in improvised languages, that so heavily re- rely 
S1: for a structure, yes 
S2: right, for a structure. and it 
S1: but, uh uh
S2: so that's the only innate thing is that need to somehow come out of structure 
S1: yes there is a need yeah uh, but i- i- in order to establish that this is borrowing, you would have to establish that other improvisers, do this temporal, structuring in different ways. [S2: mhm ] i in other words you have to, because, uh, uh, you don't make you don't, make the case, [S2: mhm ] that it's, a borrowing, [S2: okay ] you you say you've gotta have a structure you can't improvise without a structure yes of course, uh and he- here's a structure he uses and it looks like this Indian alap structure it has similarities with this Indian alap. well that doesn't, doesn't make the case, for borrowing. i mean maybe, maybe it is unconscious borrowing, but it seems to me you'd have to, do an analysis of other improvisers which have entirely different, [S2: right ] temporal structures in order to make the case for borrowing here.
S2: well, that's that's [S1: yeah ] that's the uh particularity of this situation [S1: uhuh ] is that um, as much as Jarrett's tech- techniques or, stylistic uh, persuasions maybe related to other musicians, [S1: uhuh ] there are few others that, i i i don't know any other that go through this ritual of these forty-five minute long, uh, free improvisations. i mean i just mentioned Chick Corea's recordings, they're all in shorter segments they're shorter improvisations, that don't allow for this uh kind of, de- development. so i'm not trying to say that what Jarrett does is is totally unique there but i i i would be hard pressed to to compare 
S1: you mean there's no there would be no other
S2: yeah because that that is wh- what uh, both what some people so like and what's aggravates some people so much is this endlessness of these <S1 LAUGH> of these improvisations [S1: yeah ] but th- a- and that's when i in in the subchapter about uh conceptual parallels with Indian musics, i told my own story and i said that, that's very much a reaction that many people have to Indian music of saying it begins [S1: yeah yeah yeah ] nowhere it ends nowhere, and that that kind of thing and that's that's a criticism brought to Jarrett as well, and uh it it needs those kinds of [S1: oh okay ] temporal dimensions [S1: so you're ] for that to unfold
S1: uh uh, well, you're saying there aren't_ there wouldn't be anybody else to look at. to make your case stronger.
S2: f- f- uh, for that particular argument? (yeah) 
S1: no i'm not i'm not talking about [S2: mhm ] t- doing this for the dissertation
S2: right right mhm
<SS LAUGH> 
S1: i, i don't i don't care if (xx) analysis, it just struck me that, that uh [S2: mhm ] it
S2: yeah th- uh i guess that is what i 
S3: you know what's great about this Janice is it's almost like gee it would've been better if he hadn't found the parallel
S1: yeah
<SS LAUGH> 
S3: cuz he's gotta, now he's gotta explain the darn thing.
S4: now you've gotta take Cecil Taylor and start timing him
S1: right, right, yeah, yeah. well okay alright we'll leave that one. and a- another av- one uh brief issue and that's the uh ag- as i was going through it, it struck me how important, the um, uh, German perspective on, Jarrett is, throughout the whole the dissertation and not just because you're German, it's because you use German sources in a in a great deal and and German quotes all the way through, i- and yet in neither in the abstract, nor in the introduction, do you say, this is in some ways a d- is a dual perspective. and it seems to me that's a very important part of the dissertation [S2: mhm mhm ] so i- it just, if that, [S3: i think that's true ] if you, i think that needs to be in the abstract [S2: uhuh ] and as well as in the introduction that, that uh, this is, is a dual perspective on Jarrett because the German perspective is very very important throughout, [S2: mhm mhm ] throughout yeah, and it's not, exactly the same as the, American perspective
S2: right right, so to to acknowledge that more [S2: yeah, yeah ] be more forthright
S1: bring it out [S2: mhm ] uh yeah okay. alright is there anything anybody else, really, wants to say? okay uh we'll ask all of you to leave
<P 0:08> <COMMITTEE RECESS AND DELIBERATION; BREAK IN RECORDING> <MULTIPLE CONVERSATIONS UNTIL END> 
S4: (xx) Stanley Crouch
<SS LAUGH> 
S2: that, was that, or
S1: that's it.
S3: that was it. yeah.
<SS LAUGH> 
S1: that's it.
S2: i see. i see. thank you.
S4: you want ice cream?
S3: yeah, you want something more ritualistic?
<SS LAUGH> 
S2: no i just, i haven't been through this before so
S1: you didn't know. no that's all. tha- and uh so (xx)
S2: great. oh okay, and these are
S3: those are the, (xx)
S4: i brought the wrong version with me so i have to get you my uh (cover)
S2: okay so, okay
S1: (xx) brought the wrong one, so he's gonna get, he's gotta (give you his right one)
S3: yeah this is, this mine
S2: does this stay with, okay 
SU-F: oh okay <LAUGH>
S2: i just wanna know whose is whose
S1: well here
S5: oh i put my name on mine.
S2: okay
S1: uh well i didn't put mine, but i_ you can tell 
S3: can't tell our handwriting?
S1: he can tell my handwriting (xx)
S2: yes 
S1: okay so that's mine.
S3: (gotcha.) there's one other thing here, just a (xx)
S5: wait a minute. if we have four
S2: yes i do [S4: okay ] thank 
S5: i'll i'll leave you a copy of the music
S2: great. please do.
S5: (up) here?
S2: yeah. that's fine. thank you. thank you. alright
S1: (you have a good move)
<SS LAUGH> 
S2: thank you. i know, that's coming up soon.
SU-F: thanks for coming (xx)
S3: see you (Nils,) yeah
SU-F: sure, (xx)
SU-F: (xx) thank you for coming
SU-F: sure, it was fun <LAUGH>
S4: i have to get you my copy because i ha- i have the uh the previous v- i picked up the [S2: right ] wrong version_ my cat's fault
S2: ah it's the cat's fault. great.
S3: when you indent and single space you do not need to use quotation marks.
S2: i see.
S3: so all those are (xx)
S2: great. okay.
S3: and make sure you, make sure you use double quotation marks (when you_) cuz in in in the first draft [S2: i yeah i've ] i saw there were some times when you were using [S2: right ] just single [S2: right ] quotation marks
S2: i've tried to a-
{END OF TRANSCRIPT}

