


S1: from the third to the seventeenth century whenever Europeans faced a problem they looked to the past for answers. Anne, so 
S2: okay, i i can't even well, [S1: pardon me ] i can't read my answer very well, do you wanna read it or, okay... it's this and then all the other stuff [S1: bottom? ] yeah... 
S1: <READING> there is overwhelming evidence that the people of the time period discussed looked to the past, when faced with problems... Beowulf, Charlemagne, both Charlemagnes, Clovis, Louis the Ninth, and Galileo all tried to access, a previous culture, and take example from it... </READING> access a culture, is, i don't quite know what that means. 
S2: replicate would that be better? 
S1: replicate is, replicate a culture, no. better expression, Ken? 
S3: um, they might emulate it. i mean they're looking at the ge- the geography of te- of Ptolemy and Pliny the Elder at this point and going_ they they ex- they explained it in the past, they were right because they ruled an entire empire. 
S1: so your suggestion is that, is that, we might say, that they, um... they looked, to the past, and they emulated, the example, of the past. now, let's just <P :05> <WRITING ON BOARD THROUGHOUT NEXT :15 OF UTTERANCE> emulate's a pretty good word, um, um, act on the example... is another one... but, um, there's a nuance here that you wanna, come back to... um, which is knowledge of the, actual past. and, i i'm not done here but but at some point, in an essay if you take the, if you take the, the point of view, that, the the quotation, represents, the truth. that it is that is an accurate, statement. then, one thing you must look at, is, not only examples of people looking to the past, but also, this point which is, and let me illustrate it for you, Gregory the Seventh, at one point, is talking about, um... reforming the church, and, returning it to what the early church was like. but in fact, what was his real knowledge, of, the early church? and... we don't know how accurate his knowledge of the early church was. the same thing is true, of, the Protestants... saying, we want to return, Christianity to what it was supposed to be. and then they interpret, what it was supposed to be... but i think if you look at the text book, or if you s- look at what i have have told you, about, the Reformation, Reformation, churches, Lutheran, Calvinist, don't immediately remind us, of this very early Christian community... so one thing that you might wa- i i don't know where you'd put it we haven't gotten very far in in your sample essay yet is, is um, yes, they thought that they were doing, they thought that they were acting on, they thought that they recalled, the past and the past was a model to them. but there should be a sentence, that reminds you and me, that their knowledge of what actually occurred in the past, was imperfect... just like i don't know if Nickelodeon is still running the Donna Reed Show. um, have any of you ever seen the Donna Reed Show on Nickelodeon...? nobody's willing to admit it [S4: i've seen it <LAUGH> ] um, or any show from the fifties, and, that's on, Nickelodeon, and... you know, nobody in my family was like that. now maybe we were, we you know we were refugees from Europe so we were weird but even so, um, there is that, that aspect, of this sort of, nostalgia for a way that things were except that they never quite were that way, so that's one thing, one that's one, footnote i'd put. um, so, try- all tried to access a previous culture, um, right you access the A-drive, but, i think you want to be as precise as you can. um, and i think, i think Ken said to emulate is, is or imitate_ okay. so, first of all... she's agreeing with the statement. and then she says, i'm gonna give examples. <READING> Beowulf contains the songs of bards and stories and monologues, that tell stories of family feud, and bad women, to emphasize the traditions of familial relations, and acceptable social behavior. </READING> um <P :05> ho- so how is that fitting in with your 
S2: i was confused as to whether like just, the sake of tradition, was accessing the past or are you looking for like examples like, like i have in there like, Clovis, like how how Gregory of, of Tours says you know he em- he imitates, how, um Constantine comp- is that more what you're looking for, or it that (this) tradition (is making the) 
S1: well, i'm i'm, i'm concerned now i don't quite understand what the point of your example from Beowulf is. what i read here is that Beowulf contains, a number of stories. stories that are about feuds... the only thing you have that refers to the past is, <READING> they emphasize the traditions of familial relations, and acceptable social behavior. </READING> 
S2: so it's al- it's always been that way, like as far as they know. 
S1: so what you can say is, that would make that would make your point more forceful is that these stories, celebrate... ha- the heroes, and traditions of the past. and the stories are intended to model, present and future behavior, on past heroism. [S2: mkay ] do do you see the difference? [S2: mhm ] that is to say, i i think, i don't think i'm reading too much into what you've written, [S2: no (mhm) ] but what you've written, is not, precise about, the past. [S2: okay ] um, then you, you move to Roland, <READING> the blood feud is still strong Thierry represents tradition and the pressure to continue in rituals established generations ago, when he is demanding that the fictional Charlemagne punish Gamelon he says, by virtue of my ancestors, i must make this case. </READING> now i think the example, from Charlemagne is a very good one. that's a super example to use. there is, when you're referring to Thierry, i think you might, put it more precisely, give the example more precisely and say, the discussion, over, how, to try, and punish Gamelon, is the discussion of
S2: like innovation versus tradition or something (like that) 
S1: tradition versus innovation. [S2: okay. ] that's a super point. you're burying it here... right if you don't agree with me about what i'm reading into what you've written, [S2: no, i (xx) ] let let me know. [S2: okay ] so i think, the point is to to make the make the example as precise as possible. then, you turn, to Gregory of Tours. and and the life of Clovis. here is is a tactical mistake. because, Gregory of Tours, wrote, in the year five ninety-four. [S2: later? ] earlier. 
S2: wasn't Clovis in five hundred? 
S1: Clovis Clovis is maybe four-ninety-six. but the point is, you've just you've done Beowulf, and Roland, [S2: oh, chronologically? ] Roland is ten ninety, and now you're going, right 
S2: so i should list them chronologically, all of the examples? 
S1: so i think the best way to do it, is to do it chronologically. 
S2: and that would be before Beowulf? 
S1: and that would be before Beowulf. [S2: okay. ] <READING> um, he uses a literary convention established in the story of Constantine. the process of their conversion to Christianity is extremely similar, like the celestial vision of the cross ma- ba- mass baptism of soldiers, and successfully conquering in the name of the Christian God. Clov- Gregory has looked to establish validity in Clovis' reign, by using parallels to Constantine the first Christian emperor. </READING> Gregory has looked to establish validity, in Clovis' reign. establish validity doesn't 
S2: well he wants to make Clovis more like he's not really Christian but, he wants to make him more Christian-like by emanating, 
S1: that's, a good point. establish validity is_ you go to, the s- the the state fairgrounds and you get cotton candy. and you know, what is cotton candy? it's sort of air and sugar, and finally you hit the cardboard. you know i don't mean to pick on you, [S2: no ] but i think that, that establish validity is not the same thing, as, um, let's find another expression. help me out. help us out. it's not, to establish validity establish validity would be, okay he existed. [S3: legitimacy ] but that's not the point that you're trying to make. 
S2: legitimizing 
S3: how about legitimacy? 
S1: legitimac- legitimacy. validity and legitimacy are two different things. now lemme tell you what's really going on here. what's really going on here, is... um, i can teach grammar, i can teach spelling, i can teach punctuation, i can teach even a certain amount of history. but there's one thing that takes time to learn, and that i can't teach in one term. <WRITING> and that is diction, </WRITING> which is the art, not the craft, of choosing, the, right, word, the one that fits. and that diction is the difference between <WRITING> an A and a C... </WRITING> and if you don't believe me, all i ask you to do, is to take a look at the admissions essays, of people with identical grades, and identical board scores, the person, who comes here, and the person who goes to Harvard. and i've done admissions in both places. has nothing to do with the quality of your mind, or anything like that. it has to do, with word choice. and those are really significant things and that is, and also, the right word, will shorten the essay. it'll give you more time. so, um, you would put the Clovis example further back, [S2: mhm ] really at the start, and say what Gregory, at the end of the sixth century is doing, is he is using, the example of Constantine, as a way of legitimizing, Clovis. do you understand that legitimizing is is more accurate than saying, what was it, [S2: mhm ] establish validity 
S2: yeah that was what i was looking to say i just couldn't verbalize it that way yeah. 
S1: this is, right, and this is this is what_ the only way to do that is is to read good stuff. um, you know. now i'll tell you in your defense. um, the biggest bookstore in Cambridge Massachusetts is the Harvard Coop. they have something like, i dunno, a huge inventory, something like a hundred and eighty thousand books. the problem is that a hundred and twenty thousand of them are by Steven King, and the other sixty thousand are by John Grisham. um, so something is happening in Cambridge, maybe that M-I-T is gonna be the last bastion of the English language. and you know John Grisham and and Steven King, are great writers. but their vocabulary is severely restricted. um, okay... now, the next example, and this is also, out of place, is Charlemagne the real Charlemagne. that should go before Roland. [S2: but after, Beowulf. ] so let's, let's in fact just to help you out, look at possible examples that one could use. um, <WRITING ON BOARD THROUGHOUT NEXT :13 OF UTTERANCE> Clovis who was next? [SS: Beowulf... ] then we have, Charlemagne, spelling Rudi how about somebody between Clovis, and Beowulf? <P :05> not necessarily a political figure, in fact not a political figure. <P :06> yes? 
S5: Augustine? 
S1: no, [S5: i mean um, ] um, Augustine Augustine died in four-thirty, so Augustine is, is further back. um, i want i want somebody, from five twenty-nine. <P :05> not a political figure. <P :06> yeah 
S3: um not five twenty-nine but four ninety-two, Gelasius the First, looks back to the Bible, with the gospels of two swords 
S1: i hadn't thought of that. um, so, one example would be, Pope Gelasius, who who justifies the power of the papacy, on the basis of, a, a biblical text. now you could actually argue that this is, depending on how you feel about it, that this is a misuse of the text. <P :07> that's, that's good. um, so we have, <WRITING> Gelasius the first, </WRITING> the person i was looking for, <WRITING ON BOARD THROUGHOUT NEXT :05 OF UTTERANCE> 
S4: Benedict. 
S1: was Benedict and why? 
S4: he borrows from Roman kind of civilization the abbot (a la) father in the way he constructs his rule. 
S1: um, is, is the is the abbot of a monastery is no more, and no less, than, uh, ju- kind of the model, Roman, father. of of a Roman family. i, talked about that in, in in lecture so, not all the_ uh the reason i, you know i, i i mention these, just to point out that not all of your examples need be, political, examples. yes? 
S4: they had had great contact with Roman civilization the people who were, basically like, speaking, or writing Beowulf and possibly the monastery i can understand that but, would there be a lot of, kind of looking back at the past in that work (xx) 
S1: well, there was, as, i tried to suggest to you [S4: mhm ] and i think if i remember correctly you all didn't buy it. um, one thing in Beowulf where there appears to be, some, some, tissue of misunderstanding, and that is 
S4: the giants, or (xx) 
S1: uh, the race of the giants who, you know, constructed the barrow with the vault, and the arch, um, but, that's an example of their having some very vague sense of the Roman past, but i think that that would be, uh, it would be a wo- it would, it would not, it doesn't serve in this essay. [S4: mhm, that's what i thought ] because this essay is not simply about, what was the memory of Rome, this essay is, how did people, they how did they actually solve problems. and, by relying on the, e- example of the past. let me go on. um... <READING> by crowning Charlemagne in eight hundred Leo the Third and the Catholic church, are use- are looking to establish a Roman emperor like those who lived hundreds of years ago. the unifying impact of the Roman emperor would benefit the church, in eight hundred, by protecting it much as the ancient Roman emperor did for the city of Rome. </READING> perfectly, straightforward, clear, excellent example to use, i have one, nit to pick, and that is that the term, Catholic, has no meaning, before, um, let's say fifteen hundred. [S2: so could you ] but that's such a minor 
S2: i- so then would church be lower case or upper case or like how, [S1: oh, ] i mean, so you just say the church and you assume that 
S1: oh i think you can, i as far as i'm concerned you could use have it on a lower case or upper case. in handwriting, uh i find it difficult to distinguish. uh but just simply refer to the church. [S2: okay ] cr- the the the Christian church it's a, it's a s- it's a fine point, but it's, it's it's important to bear it, uh, to, to bear in mind. that's a fine example. um, and that would go, that would've gone, here. <READING> Louis the Ninth, looked to the life of Jesus twelve hundred years ago to give meaning and guidance to his life. often in Joinville's Life he relates how Louis wanted to be humble and imitate Jesus' gestures. </READING> fine. you could, you could give an example, depending on how the time constraint was but that's, perfectly good. <P :07><WRITING ON BOARD THROUGHOUT NEXT :28 OF UTTERANCE> um notice that i mentioned earlier, how Gregory the Seventh looked to the past or claimed that nothing he was doing was new. so you could, around the time of Roland, put in Gregory the Seventh <P :05> <READING> Galileo quoted numerous men is, in his letter, who lived long before he did, he used the examples of work by (Tertoli) and Aquinas Copernicus Saint Augustine by quoting them he tries to establish his work within the context of others which came before him, </READING> um, and i think you should say, he was using them, to bolster his case by saying, what i say, about the relationship between observation, and authority, is the same. as what they said. [S2: uhuh ] it's like that old ad, my broker is, and my broker says, that's an excellent example. that's an excellent example. then, you, the (S-A-Ns) all these men, have taken something from the past, and mimicked or used what they have found there. sometimes the resemblance is striking, other times subtle but it is still exhuming the traditions of the past to base these a- actions of the present upon which is uh, perfectly good. so i think the, what i would suggest, would be to, check the diction a little bit, organize chronologically, um, and i would um, i don't remember how ever many examples i might add to 
S2: (hit-) add two more 
S1: add add two more i didn't make a count but 
S2: and then like expound on what i had like and then go into more in depth, each one 
S1: yeah, yeah i well, i when i when i, when i say more in depth, i think that, you know i thought that that Leo the Third was really good, i thought that the Beowulf example, wasn't precise, [S2: mhm ] and i think you could actually rewrite that and even make it s- make shorten it. um can you do the Beowulf example in one sentence? i think you could it might be a complex sentence but you might be able to do it. [S2: mhm ] um, here, uh, the main point is clear. and then you have examples. and it is the examples that lift the essay and make it a really good essay. 
S2: so it's okay to have that many, examples? [S1: yeah, ] okay. 
S1: yeah you you have to worry a little bit about the time constraint, which is why knowing just what to write, knowing_ that's why diction_ i mean the ex- exam's Thursday i can't help you with, with diction <S2 LAUGH> but it's something that you must, you must be aware of, you must be aware of. [S2: how long will we have (for this exam) ] at least for another ten years until my generation dies, or you kill us all, um, uh, and then you can do whatever you want to with the language but, but, it it it's it's important. and does save you time. i'm sorry, what were you saying? 
S2: what, what are the time divisions we have or is it just up to us to do the essay, i mean do the, 
S1: it's, it's, it's up to you. i believe that you should do the essay first and you should you should spend an hour on it. [S2: okay. ] um, and then, um <P :07> 
S2: then like forty twenty or so? 
S1: i would spen,- i would, i would spend an hour on it, and then, you have another hour, and i would spend, twenty minutes, um, on, part two and part three, and then i would come back to see i might've forgotten anything about part one. [S2: okay ] okay? do you want me to look at the other essay? 
S2: someone else can go, that's alright. <LAUGH> 
S1: okay. alright, um it does i mean it are these comments sensible are they helpful? [S2: yes very much. mhm ] okay thank you for volunteering to being the, the first. Ken i think you were next. 
S3: um, could we, could you shape an argument, on this, by saying that you by disagreeing because, the memory of the past is fuzzy? 
S1: you can, you yes you can do that. um, and you can sa- and then then you would give some examples of, of of that how for instance... how anybody, could look at Clovis, and say this is a Constantine, requires one to, uh, i mean Ken's a Roman historian so he understands, he has a a larger, context in which to think of this. that this man who's, who's the who's, fundamentally an illiterate killer, um, um, so it's it's a, you can say that, you could make the argument, they say they're doing this, but they sure aren't. and that's why i, that's why i put that e- put that example in. i mean, yeah Galileo uses Augustine. but Augustine never, observed nature and made the observation of nature. Augustine never did, experiments. so yes you could, you could, you could turn it on, turn it on its head very easily. would you have other examples that you'd had in mind, about that Ken? ? 
S3: well, uh Beowulf is a great one. when they talk about, uh the giants. [S1: mhm ] there were never giants and that, yet and they have, physical examples of these of these ancient Roman, uh cons- uh, buildings. [S1: uhuh ] uh, other things are is is that, their connections, between Hrothgar and Beowulf, are because they know each other bec_ uh, Beowulf knows him because of his father. but it's not really, there's no linea_ uh the_ it's not a, formalized structure of politics. you don't have, Hrothgar's a king, Beowulf, is, a vassal of some kind, and has to rese- uh and has to respond to the th- the threat of, [S1: yes ] of Grendel. [S1: um ] and y- Martin Luther talking about how distant God is, uh, from us, whereas the early Christian church based on your lectures are saying, God was close God was comforting and he was r- reason that he was popular 
S1: God walked the earth. 
S3: God walked the earth. 
S1: pilgrimage. [S3: uh ] one of the reasons why pilgrimage is so significant in Catholicism and is not significant in Protestantism, uh is is because of that distance. 
S3: and so it's it's a question of, we're trying to look back to the past but it's a past that, they've constructed with their present 
S1: made it up [S3: uh ] made it up. uh i can give you an example i can offer you an example of of a case which is um, uh a direct case of rejecting the image of the past and that is, the transformation, the movement from Merovingian kingship to Carolingian kingship. when Pepin, Pepin knows, how the Merovingians, arranged their government. and he says this doesn't work, nuts to it. long flowing blond hair, forget it. descendent from a seahorse, forget it. um, um, warriors clashing their swords together and you know yelling, forget that. no. so Pepin, is, gets a, a a kind of a letter of permission from the Pope, um he is anointed, that's a case where there's a very explicit, rejection, of the past. another case of course is is is is Francis. so you can, you can either agree, and i think in a, in a g- in a graduate seminar, it would probably take, the case that, and agree with it more than disagree, that there would be a hefty, part of an essay in a graduate, that would do this. you can disagree. and you can say you know a little bit of one, or or or or or or the little bit, of anoth- you can you can, you can disagree as Ken is doing, or you can disagree on the basis of actual, fact where they, where they know what they're doing and they and they look, they they they look elsewhere. yes? 
S4: but with Saint Francis and Pepin couldn't you both say, couldn't you say for both that, although they may have_ the- there was still an element of looking to the past cuz Saint Francis, t- had the element of looking back to Christ for an example, while sort of rejecting current authority. and, um, Pepin ha- was anointed, just like you know the Roman emperors in, in ways looking back that way too. . 
S1: you can, you can make the case though on one level, i mean you can make the, the nebbish case which is a little bit of this and a little bit of that which is a perfectly acceptable case. Pepin is saying, the tradition of the Merovingians, screw it. nuts to it. no more. i'm gonna do something new, except that part of it is very old. what is new is i'm getting papal sanction, what is old is i'm doing, uh what happened to David, i'm going to be anointed... so so you could do that. and there are, uh, Francises on the one hand, uh, very much looking to the past but what, what Francis ends up doing, is is throwing down the gauntlet to the entire system including, including the historical church. when Francis said says take your money throw it away, and, and, and, and, do what Jesus did, that is, a threat to every, cathedral... in Europe and i showed you slides of those cathedrals and you know how much money was tied up in those cathedrals. yeah. 
S2: was Francis, was Francis a layma- like a layman he wasn't ordained as anything? 
S1: no Francis was Francis was a person just like you or me [S2: but they did receive the ] well, more like you than like me. 
S2: but he they did at one time, were able to hear confessions but that's not the same thing as being a priest like, 
S1: i don't_ Francis doesn't hear confessions. [S2: later on, did they? ] he had, he had he has no, Francis had no authority to absolve sins or to do what a priest did. Francis is a man who creates a new monastic order. but he as himself was never ordained. um and didn't have the kind of powers of delivering sacraments that, that, that that a priest did. 
S2: it it says in the text that a wi- i guess maybe that later on, the the monas- the Franciscans were able to hear confession, is, but, (xx) [SU-F: yeah they changed it ] (did they change it?) 
S1: Franciscans, w- there was a change in the order, that occurred partly because, the people who followed Francis's, injunctions most closely, ultimately were convicted of heresy, in large part because of what they_ their criticism of the wealth in the church. uh, now there're Franciscans i mean i don't know what the_ i don't know the history of the order later, after thirteen twenty-two so i don't know and i'm not certain what the, what the textbook has to say about that so s- s- since, it's so long since i've looked at it. so, i it could well be. yes? 
S4: wouldn't that also be a case of like, the church twisting Francis's image basically to fit into their institution like with Saint Bonaventure's, um biography (xx) 
S1: well i i think that Francis is the is the classic case, i- is the classic case of doing that. um, he was a promise and he was a threat, at the same time and so the later biographies, um, emphasized the the less threatening aspects. uh, i think Francis was aware of that. he was aware of it. that's why he gave up the leadership of the order at one point he he knew, he knew what the danger was... what next? wa- wait a minute you had your h- 
S5: oh oh i oh i was just i think earlier i was just gonna ask if, um to go along with this first essay if th- oh oh i no i actua- well the Refor- the Reformation is, you know one example with Luther looking back to the past and the early church and what not, that is not just sort of missing from that essay but um, [S1: mhm ] in the Renaissance, i know it's_ how is it to solve a problem though like you know you- i think the question stated, whenever, [S1: okay ] whenever they face a problem? [S1: yeah ] exac- well i guess i'm sort of unclear exactly 
S1: what is virtue? well let's see what Plato had to say. and and to find out let's go, get manuscripts of Plato. yes of course. <LAUGH> you might've you might put something in, <S5 LAUGH> about the Renaissance. that's the reason i got a C in this class when i took it is i probably would've just ignored the Renaissance and i, it's, that that's a good that's a good case of, uh of uh... good good set of examples there. um, now, the way you could make Ken's case, would be to say yeah you look to the past, uh, but what happens, as soon as they discover the Americas or they land in the Americas and they realize all of a sudden, that, that, past authority, that no one, had mentioned the New World. no one had mentioned the Americas. by the way i don't care if you use New World or discovery of the Americas or whatever but be aware, that in nineteen hundred and ninety-two, there was a whole big schmear about it, that you know, they didn't discover it it existed already, the, Arawak, they all knew that they who they were they didn't need Columbus to say guess what guess who you are. um you don't have to get into that. um, uh, uh i will not, mark you down if you use the the, the phrase New World even (for) it was not a new world, um <P :05> um but the, there are the examples of, and and the examples in the Renaissance i mean, uh, you know Copernicus is to some extent a figure of the Renaissance. so, you can use that but i think that that uh, that the the search for, answers was to some extent a search for, um, examples from the past. Machiavelli's Prince, it's really dazzling, how little evide- when Machiavelli wants to say something about how you should govern, and he gives examples, he takes examples from Rome and from Greece. he does not take examples from say the thirteenth century history of Florence which he might well have done, to make the same point, they don't have the same value to him, as do the examples from the past. <P :10> as you can see the easiest answer to write to that particular question, is one that searches for examples that support it. <P :05> that's the simplest way to approach it. in an an upper division course it would not be a- it would not be as correct an answer we'd want as something that has more what what Ken was suggesting... anything else that you would like to offer you have any questions or concerns about that particular essay? yes? 
S4: would you not be drawing the line at all between custom, and perhaps like, the actual pa- i mean well like you've been saying, but like with Gregory the Seventh, for example he wanted to go back to, [S1: uhuh ] somewhat what he called truth which was, in fact an innovation, to a society which, basically relied upon custom which, isn't necessarily, the actual, i mean 
S1: i don't understand what 
S4: i'm a little i'm a little fuzzy on it myself, but, um, just the fact that like custom is so, incredibly, loose (and) 
S1: yes and where is the, where is the best example that you can use about the reliance on custom? 
S4: donation of Constantine 
S1: mm i think there's something better yes. 
S6: is it Charlemagne and Roland? when the 
S1: no, no, no, [S4: Charlemagne? ] no, uh, ninety-eight percent of the people in Europe. [S3: serfs ] pardon me [S3: the serfs? ] and and and what sort of a system, are we talking about? [SS: (xx) ] we're talking about a feudal regime, and the feudal regime for its success the manor, what do you rely on? the custom of the manor, this is the way we've been doing things for ages and ages and ages and ages. and so someplace, around, between the real Charlemagne and Roland, <WRITING ON BOARD THROUGHOUT NEXT :09 OF UTTERANCE> i would prefer that you, use the phrase feudal regime, words that end in I-S-M have no meaning. i mean if you think about it, they really don't. i tend to use them, because, i've been using them for fifty some years but that's my mistake. um, i would prefer that you talk, and and, the manor, the, um... the systems of homage and vassalage that're set into motion, and that and that persist for four or five hundred years. so you can see, uh, the- there's a just lots of stuff you can do here and you might, decide to use, mention two political examina- e- uh, examples two religious, uh you know, i don't know, one from list A one from list B i... a breadth would be good any other questions about this essay yes? 
S6: can we also use the example from uh Roland about how Charlemagne was confused in this um, period of transition from using custom into, um, getting, a, a number of vassals to decide what's the right thing to do? 
S1: you could, you could do that. you could do that, then you would be, then you would be dealing in part with_ that that's a counterexample, to this quotation. and you could build up, you could build up the, the, uh, the the set of counterexamples, as we as i've given you some. but that would certainly serve_ the whole question of the trial of Gamelon could be, you could say you know this demonstrates that in the year ten ninety, you have, people who're puzzled, about whether, past experience, should be the guide, because past experience, isn't working out. you could put Beowulf, stand Beowulf on his head and say, they say they're looking to the past, and all the stories are about the past, but all the stories, you end up with failure. they look to the past and say kinship is crucial, and Beowulf has no sons, etcetera etcetera etcetera so you could, you could make, you could use, uh Beowulf to, to, to argue that case. the, the real answer is of course it's a mixture of of this, and Ken's point. cuz that's the way it really was. but at a hundred level course i'm not gonna, to to make that, crucial. you had your hand up, partly. 
S4: yeah i was just gonna say that is there not also could you not also point to like Roland and O- versus Ol- and Oliver because (xx) in Europe 
S1: yes the Roland Oliver is is is a similar discussion. [S4: something developing the text ] is a similar discussion and and, for that you would you would say, you know this this quotation, is is right in one sense and it's wrong because, we often find, ourselves, torn between, what we have done, and what we feel that we should do. and here're some examples of that. um, one example, a really good example, would be, um the difference between Joinville, um and Louis. Joinville a very conventional man, lots of examples of that, and Louis thinking in, in, in terms that're defined by, the challenges offered by Saint Francis. <P :06> anything else on this essay? <P :05> so there is no reason why, why anyone who is in this room now, should get any- anything less than an A, on that question. yes? 
S4: i'm sorry could i ask one last thing about that one? [S1: yeah sure go ahead ] oh, okay. um, could you also argue that, not only_ i guess not only that um, it's sort of a mixture, but that, in looking to the past, in reality, m- many times they were revolutionizing things, like Luther although he was looking to the past, he created, you know, unbeknownst to him, this new this entire new system and
S1: you can certainly, you could certainly make that argument [S4: okay ] it's a good argument. remember i spoke early on about the law of unintended consequences? 
<P :07> 
S2: Galileo would fit into that right? 
S1: how? 
S2: well like the the way we were talking about he, he wanted to save the church and he thought he was working within the Bible but it ended up to be, like, he was like 
S1: he wanted, yes he wanted to save the church from potential errors that that the, institutional church would make. [S2: mhm ] uh, and he was devout. um, 
S2: he wasn't [S1: an- ] intentionally going against the church but it [S1: correct. ] what it ended up to be was, 
S1: yeah, and tha- they wouldn't let him. they did not listen to him. so that's less what_ my my only hesitation is that it isn't what he did. it was that their reaction, was in retrospect, [S2: okay ] um, uh, and, i- it's, right if you look at the Pope's statement about Galileo which has now about four years old, four or five years old, it's it's it's remarkable, how he skirts the real issues. um, one of the Pope's advisors is a man who teaches at Notre Dame who i know reasonably well and, he was explaining one day, they were wrong, they were wrong to convict Galileo, and then he paused and he said, but if they'd got him on this if they'd charged him with this, then they could've <SU-F LAUGH> convicted him. i've forgotten what it was there was some other thing that they_ essentially what he was saying that they picked the wrong statute. um, it was remarkable i said, well o- okay. what would you like to talk about now...? yes? 
S7: um, can we do part three, please? 
S1: yeah i don't have a lot to offer on part three since, wi- with rare exceptions it's uh, um, it's all out of the text book. [S7: well ] the crucial thing is, let me just go over the requirements, um, i don't know. what is a carrack? 
SU-4: a ship, (Portuguese then it should be) fourteen eighty? 
S1: okay just a just a minute. what is it? 
SU-F: boat 
S7: it's a cargo boat 
SU-4: cargo boat 
S1: it's a large cargo vessel, but what distinguishes it from, the cargo vessel that you see plying, the Saint Lawrence seaway? 
SU-4: it's based on Viking ships? [S1: pardon me? ] and that based on Viking ships, and [SU-F: could carry other arms ] that, the (most) 
S1: there's, guns, guns. large, cargo vessel, carrying, guns. date? 
S8: fourteen eighty? 
S1: fourteen eighty. historical significance? 
S9: conquest? [S1: pardon me? ] conquest? 
S1: well, could you give that to me in a sentence? 
S9: uh, used to help conquest their y- armies and stuff 
S1: okay i'm not hearing you, um 
S9: oh, uh, used to help conquest i dunno, take over new lands and, use in warfare and 
S1: okay, now, um, there's there's a subject, to that verb that i'm having difficulty with. who conquering whom? 
S9: that's one thing it_ was it a Portuguese invention i'm curious? 
S1: alright it's_ carrack. large, cargo vessel, well armed, Portuguese, invented, fourteen eighty... the vessel of European overseas conquest. <P :05> that's it. yes?
S7: did, Columbus use it, on his conquest should we mention that or
S1: uh, only if you have time he had he had i think uh two caravels... i may have said in class that he had a carrack but i'm not so certain now i need to, to check out whether the Santa Maria was a, was was a carrack but that's, that's all you need for that i mean, the danger there, is going on and on and on. yes? 
S10: i had a question um, the mathematical principles, were not in the text book, um, and i was wondering and i couldn't find them in my lecture notes i don't know [S1: okay ] maybe i missed that, or um 
S1: alright. who was the author? [S10: um... was it ] who was the author? who was the author please? who was the author? you. 
S11: uh was it Galileo? [S1: no ] Newton? 
S1: who was the author please? 
S11: Newton? 
S1: alright. so, uh, the book, by Sir Isaac Newton, date, could look it up. um, i've got it someplace, um sixteen [SS: eighty-seven ] sixteen eighty-seven. alright. and, significance? 
SU-F: (capitalist?) 
S1: significance significance significance. significance? 
S12: couldn't find it either i didn't know what it was talking about which one it was talking about. 
S1: um, um, i no i want somebody who hasn't spoken. significance? 
S13: um that, it was a new way of looking at, uh, (an experience) 
S1: a new way of looking at? 
S13: everything around you? [S1: mm you can, be more precise. ] i mean like, (calculation) 
S1: it was not a new way of looking at tables. [S13: oh ] what is that new way? what is, what are the crucial hallmarks of that what are the crucial features of the new way...? 
S13: of, calcu- 
S1: what distinguishes nat sci courses from h- humanities courses? yeah you know the answer you're smiling so come on help us out. help us out. 
S14: basically if we're, calculating it um, observation... better (than) 
S1: you're you're going, too far. what differentiates Physics one-twenty-five, from English one-twenty-five? you open the text book to any given page what differentiates those two? [S14: the subject ] let's assume that you can't even read. 
S15: the numbers [S1: what? ] numbers? 
S1: uh it is the mathematical, (creed) and it is, uh it is it is, let's actually see what Perry has to say about this. 
<P :08> 
S2: cal- like calculating the laws of nature, no?
<P :05> 
S1: calculating the laws of nature is not correct. you don't calculate the laws of nature. you can express. [S2: yeah, express them mathematically, that's what i was ] express, let's do it this way. um... it's actually New- Newton's Principia. okay? Pr- Mathematical Principles, by Sir Isaac Newton, the date, um, for m- in significance is, <READING> formulation of general laws, of nature, in mathematical terms. </READING> <P :04> mhm? 
S6: isn't it also the first explicit work about the Law of Gravity? 
S1: that depends on whether you think Galileo understood, what ga- what gravity was about. [S6: i mean New- ] no, i mean it depends on_ you said, the first, what what were your words? 
S6: um, the first work about the Law of Gravity. 
S1: um, i- that depends on on, that depends on on whether you think Galileo had a sense of what gravity was, and that's a matter of dispute among scholars, but it's perfectly okay. the formulation i just gave you was a little more general but that's, but that's fine. 
S6: but it was written by Newton, right? 
S1: yes it was written by Newton. 
S6: so, what does, Galileo 
S1: you asked you said, first work. [S6: okay ] and the question that whether it's first, [S6: uhuh ] is a question of whether you, how you read Galileo's, books, on motion. [S6: i see. ] and that's really a matter, that that that's that's something going on between scholars in the history of science right now. i prefer the slightly more general formulation, that we ju- that we just had. <P :05> it is certainly, Principia is certainly one of the, the four or five greatest books ever to come out of the Western intellectual tradition no question about that. and it is a book which you find, whose like you find, in no other intellectual tradition on this planet. period. 
<P :05> 
S9: is, [S1: yes ] that book, is that the first uh, time that he uh, proposes that, of the universal laws that, the same, stuff that happens on earth is the same that's in the heavens?
S1: uh, that's the first, that's the first thoroughgoing proof. <P :07> crucial thing i'm thinking about these is is um, about the I-Ds, is, what you need. you need to tell me what it is, you need to date it, and then, without going on, w- at length about it, a a concise way of giving, the significance, in the most general terms. and that was a problem_ there seems to be a a problem, i think i think every year in recent years. seventies it wasn't so so big a deal but but now there s- there seems to be some, some difficulty with it so, um, so bear that in mind. it is very easy to waste a lot of time and to lose points, by, by doing that i mean i counseled you on the hour exam to do the I-Ds last, and i would say a third to, about a third of the papers, did the I-Ds first and and, i could see. i could i could see it. they seem safe. that that's, that's the dessert. you have to get, the other stuff first. what would you like to talk about next? yes?
S6: um, before we leave this question could you please, um, tell us what uh the importance, of Roger Bacon is? 
S1: you tell me. i i'm sorry what you're asking me to do, is, that which i said that i would not do. 
S6: well i have the answers but i wanted to know if i'm right or wrong. 
S1: ah, okay. that's not what you asked me a minute ago. [S6: well you if you (xx) ] so read it so read it. 
S6: um, well, he's a English Franciscan monk and philosopher, and um, his interest in science foreshadowed the modern attitude toward science, and his most important works are the experime- experiments in optics observations in sp- the speed of light and descriptions of, um, anatomy. 
S1: now do you believe that you're gonna have the time to write all that down...? 
S6: i don't know. [S1: um, ] if it's important i have to. 
S1: um, not all of that is at is of equal importance. [S6: okay. ] um, um... let's see what they do here. <P :21> okay. there, first of all there's one thing missing, which is a date. [S6: yeah i have that. ] so you're gonna need some kind of a date. um, um, now, alright. let me read you this section. <READING> another Englishman, the monk and philosopher Roger Bacon yadda yadda foreshadowed the modern attitude using science to gain mastery over nature. he recognized the pla- practical advantages that might come and predicted these great changes blah blah blah. Macon Bacon valued the study of mathematics (and in Arabic) works among (which) were Experiments in Optics, Anatomy of the etcetera etcetera etcetera </READING> i think the simplest thing, is Roger Bacon, um, English philosopher, the date, and then, works on science, um, and and then that business about about uh, the, the attitude that seems more modern to us than we would find in other thirteenth century thinkers that is to say, um, the, the, the utilitarian rule... and i that i think would be sufficient. <P :15> yes. 
S5: yes i don't have one written but we outlined, um, question two, which is um, [S1: this is, essay question two? ] yeah [S1: on part one? ] yeah the idea of authority. if we could maybe just even go over the examples. 
S1: well, um, what happens in the idea of authority? 
S5: well i mean i guess our basic idea is that, we said that, um it starts in Beowulf there's like the blood feud equals legal authority, sort of, um so it's like this society of <WRITING ON BOARD THROUGHOUT NEXT :05 OF UTTERANCE S1> vengeance and, what not and the, and, kings are, good kings which means good authority, if they're good warriors they're wealthy they're generous. um, and there's no 
S1: wait wait wait wait wait let's go back, [S5: okay ] let's go back there, let's go back. um, so Beowulf. [S5: mhm ] <P :08> where does, authority rest, in the society, of Beowulf? 
S5: like brute strength, whomever, whatever war- most skilled warrior, most influence? 
S1: um 
<P :06> 
S5: because you can win like your k- a kingship or because Beowulf was, successful he did take over the king. 
S1: does authority rest, in a book? 
S2: it's individual's brute strength. 
S1: uh, and, typically who would be, the strongest individual? 
SU-F: king 
S1: so, i think a, the leader of, the war band... you see, you were, you're quite correct in everything you said. [S5: mhm ] but it was nebulous in terms of, of of where it really lies. so, it is, authority is <WRITING ON BOARD THROUGHOUT NEXT :12 OF UTTERANCE> personal <P :06> and it resides in... the leader of the war band or, king. but if you use the word king you need to explain, what you mean by that. you need to explain that king, isn't the same thing, as, um... a modern monarch, like, Prince Charles is gonna be. one of the errors, in the hour examination, was, a tendency to use words, with modern meanings, rather than specify, the meaning, at the time... keep going. 
S5: um, does, could the blood feud be brought in here at all? because it's sort of a, it's sort of the legal system in a way. 
S1: um, you if you wanna talk about law, [S5: mhm ] um, you may say that that, it is not a written law <P :05> and, and there is no, office that enforces the law, that law is a matter of, of_ it's private... and it results in the feud. 
<P :05> 
S5: okay. um i guess then 
S1: you you know, what what you're suggesting [S5: i'm sorry ] is that is, that one way to answer that question, is to say i'm going to look at how law, changes, the development of law, over this period. and you could write_ you could segregate the notion of law, the practice of law, and write half an essay, on that not a whole essay, cuz i haven't spent much time talking about law i mean i could've in a in a fourteen week course i would but, but didn't give here. i just wanted to point that out to you. [S5: okay ] so, um clearly, the society of Beowulf is one in which authority, um is, is highly, personalized. yes? 
S7: um i also wrote a essay on that but, i didn't start with Beowulf i started with um, actually Augustus, Octinian who was, could you, back up that far or would it just be, (too low) 
S1: you can use, you can use the Roman empire as a as as a starting point. [S7: okay. that's, okay. ] um, and and, at that time, where does authority lie? 
S7: um, well, wasn't he granted, um, emperor by the council? but i wasn't sure, where the council got, its (power) 
S1: now you're going back a little_ now you're going back to the, to the nuts and bolts constitutional history of the early empire which, that is going back a little too far. [S7: okay. ] but you you can certainly say that, you have, imperial will, and what else? very important. 
S7: military strength? 
S1: um, i see that almost as part in terms of imperial will because the emperor supposedly_ but but 
S2: suppor- support of the republic? 
S1: no that's going back too far. i- it's it's the one thing for instance, if this were, if this were a European class, instantly would, would get would would get the answer. 
S2: was the question
S1: is is there's another, really significant source of authority. [S6: tax ] no [S6: coinage? ] no 
S7: lineage, who your father was? 
S1: 'm'm 
SU-F: religion 
SU-F: charisma? 
S1: people here who are not going who are not pre meds are what?
SU-F: L-S and A. 
S1: according to your parents. if you're not a pre med what are you? 
S2: law student 
S1: law. so <P :06> no?
S2: Roman law? 
S1: Roman law. Roman law is is, i- it permeates, European law just get tossed in the jug on the continent and and you'll find that, it is unbelievably different from what we have here, and that is because, uh European legal systems are fundamentally founded upon principles of Roman law which work very differently from our own. very differently. um, so you see, here you have authority emanating from an office... cuz you're gonna have a nebbish who's an emperor... whereas you can't have a nebbish who's the leader of a war band right? you will never see a movie of Beowulf that stars Woody Allen. whereas you can see lots of movies about Roman emperors that can star Wo- Woody Allen. he's gonna have to do something about the accent but, um, and, so there's office, and, a written law. <P :09> yeah? 
S4: with the um the question of the war like the king is th_ if he's the most powerful then he's, the king or [S1: the leader of the war band ] yeah could you bring in the idea then of gunpowder and then, the change from the kind of chivalry feudal knight who's the most powerful warrior to the notion of like, because that would be a big change in authority right? 
S1: i never thought of that, uh, would that have a bearing on, what a source of authority is? 
S4: cuz if you had, money wealth power
S1: i think you could make it, somewhat broader than that. i think you could say, that after fourteen, twenty-five or something like that, that that... um <P :05> that technology... and the ability to control technology, is an important base, for, authority. i mean... otherwise, why would you_ notice that that that... the three field system the horse collar things like that they were these were invented by individuals. we have no idea what their names were, because it didn't mean anything to people at the time. but, uh, one one wants to know, um, who is the devisor of, technological items. um, because those things, confer both profit and power, over a period of time so that you can say that, control of technology is a basis of authority after about fourteen twenty-five. that's about as, well as i can do kind of thinking on my feet about it but it certainly is true. it certainly is true. uh, notice that that um <P :05> uh, one other thing, that enters into this question is that when you talk about the Renaissance Era, you may say that well, theological works no longer, are, bases of authority, but uh, the example of the of the Greco-Roman past, is now in authority. you don't wanna know any more what Aquinas had to say about something you wanna know, what Plato or Aristotle had to say about it. and later on, uh when you're dealing with the rise of of science, you can say that, uh what confers authority is is is, um, right you no longer look to see what Ptolemy had to say, now you look to see what e- experiment and observation, have to say. so this is not simply a a a political matter. <P :15> what else did you wanna offer on the matter of, of authority? 
S4: um i guess i think, next, we talked about, um, uh i i guess sort of the m- i don- i don't know if this would be any different than Beowulf necessarily but with the Merovingians and the Carolingians and sort of, well i guess there's a difference between the two but 
S1: well, what gives, um... for the, for, this society and for the Merovingians, [S4: mhm ] what gives you the right rule what gives you the authority, what makes people obey you what makes people look to you [S4: strength ] is, is, is, military power. 
S4: isn't it also mysticism though in a way? 
S1: well, not mysticism. again i'm getting here to this this matter of diction. um, uh, because, because none of them were mystics. i mean they write, they, they just weren't mystics. um, but, what i think you're suggesting is that... what made, um, what gave some of the authority to the Merovingians was not only the fact that, that, their leaders, at least of origins were powerful, but these folkloric aspects. such as the long blond hair. um things like that. and then and then, um, i mean for instance you could you could, you could build an essay let's see. let's say you don't wanna spend half the essay on law. let's say, i'm going to spend half this essay talking about political authority. therefore i'm going to talk about what makes somebody a king. what makes somebody a king, in Augustus' time, is, possession of an office, and, the, protection of the law. what makes somebody a king, in Beowulf's time, is military prowess, generosity, heroism. what makes someone a king in the time of Pepin, is, um yeah approval of the troops, military power, but also you need to have, papal sanction, anointment. what makes somebody uh, uh, a, uh, good king, uh in the time of, oh i don't know, Philip Augustus, eleven eighty to twelve, twenty, uh is, um you need now a bureaucracy, you no longer need to be very_ you no longer have to have physical strength cuz you no longer need to lead the armies, uh you need to have full control of, feudal, law, feudal custom, at your disposal, you need to have lots of vassals, things like that. what do you need to be a good king, in the year fifteen hundred? guns. guns, uh a good uh internal revenue service, you know, you could look at it, you could look at it that way. but certainly that would only be half of it the other half would be, to look at some other aspect of it which is, um, intellectual authority. i've given a couple of examples of, of, of that. yes? 
S6: um the way i constructed this essay i just wanna see, if this is wro- uh true, if this is an acceptable way or not is that i define authority in either being with the king, with religion or with science, and then i said the first tension that uh uh time we covered in class, was between the king, and religion, and then i gave examples. and then the second tension 
S1: give me an example. 
S6: between kings and religion? [S1: yeah ] um, Leo the Third and, Charlemagne. 
S1: okay, w- it's not kings and religion kings and the church [S6: the church yeah yeah, i'm sorry ] okay, yeah, alright. 
S6: and then the second tension, which came later on was between religion and science, for example Galileo. [S1: yeah ] so is that an accepta- 
S1: that's a way of doing it [S6: mkay ] that's a way of doing it. that is to say that to, to think of it, in terms not of what defines authority but in a given period, what were the alternatives and how did they, um, uh clash with each other. yes? 
S4: what about like a change to from like the divine right of kings, [S1: same thing ] to the kind of okay 
S1: that's the same thing. same thing and notice that, you might say, there's a notion that power, f- i mean for a thousand years power descended. it descended to kings, it descended to, to popes or to priests as well. and in the eleventh century there was a big dispute about, who got more of it. and part of the end of that dispute was a notion that the subjects, have the right, to rebel, and to po- a- rebel against and to de- depose, a, a uh, uh, an unjust, ruler. and that, gets the camel's nose inside the tent. and then later you can talk about how that is, you you have a, beginnings of notions of government which are ascending, rather than descending. papacy never accepts that but it certainly is something which is a, part of the Reformation. 
S2: what is an example of, the people deposing, a ruler that early? 
S1: oh, there is no example of people, well there is no example of people deposing a ruler that early, but what you do have is already in the eleventh century at the time of the investiture contest, there's a lot of literature that says this is justified. 
S5: just the uprisings on the manor? is that 
S1: no that when you have an, uh when you have an unjust monarch, that it is legitimate to, to depose him. uh, the first example, in which there is a monarch whose will is, is curtailed... we have that, we have that from the year twelve fifteen. and what is the document that's associated with that? 
S5: Magna Carta? 
S1: Magna Carta. Magna Carta is, i mean if you read Magna Carta, and in the long course we do read Magna Carta, if you read Magna Carta, there is nothing in it, that looks anything like, that that will lead to, to, to modern constitutional government. but in fact there're bits and pieces of it which are just ex- they're time bombs. very explosive. <P :05> i i chose authority because i wanted to give you the opportunity, to think about various options <P :05> i know people sometimes tell you that an exam is supposed to be a learning experience and, i know what joy that gives you, well at least i remember what joy it gave me but i do wanna, um, i wanna give you the opportunity to to, to think about these things and develop some ideas. and i always find things that i never thought of before which is good. [S5: um, i guess ] yeah, go on 
S5: then we went to um, Pepin and Charlemagne just, [S1: yes ] you see what i'm saying about, that brings up the first fundamental penchant of authority not, sort of lying in an individual but sort of there being an institution, [S1: yes, mhm ] the church and stuff, and then i guess we went on to um, Roland, and it, being this really increasing feudal custom, that, gave authority so th- uh the lord, um became, the, the authority figure. 
S2: like a decentralized power? 
S1: well there, there's a pyramid [S5: mhm ] and so, authority... the, the, the primary authority is is whoever your, primary lord is. on the manor... the lord of the manor, to the serfs, is the person who tells them what to do. but power on the manor is twofold there's on the one hand the authority that the lord of the manor has but there's also the power of custom... custom plays a larger role i think overall in the countryside on the manors. whereas in the in the in the, the feudal regime involving lords and vassals, not serfs, then there was a pyramid of, of authority. there's an understanding of of what the obligations are both ways, but there is a pyramid of authority. and again there's nothing written. neither on the manor there's nothing written because nobody could read, and nobody could write, um, and, uh the lord, and and vassal, um, until the twelfth century or till late in the twelfth century also it's, it's uh, uh there there's custom but it's it's a, clear indication of a pyramid and, and of, one person, uh they're both, they're both, uh, nobles. but it is your lord who is, who is the, the the authority figure, as Roland shows us. 
S5: i um, we did um, sort of a, brief outline but then we went on to, in terms of Louis and Charlemagne, um, where the king has, the king is more like of a actual, power figure himself, um, and that this is, although it's in a time of of deep feudalism that it's sort of this rise of individualism with king Louis saying, alright w- tell me what you think, and then he says mm, never mind, i'm gonna do it my way. 
S1: that's good. [S5: okay. ] that's good. that's good. [S5: um, and then there's ] that's that's very good. <P :06> it's not the first example but certainly the first example that you have of the reading list for this particular iteration of this course is is uh, where you have a uh, uhh, a ruler for whom there we can really see the taking of council, in a number of different ways. there's one thing that i mentioned to you about, that book which is which is, which is problematic. and that is that that uh, that Joinville hides from us, uh, the, the, layers of administration <P :06> 
S5: but at the same time there's a constant struggle between the church and the state with Louis, with the whole example with the friar 
S1: yeah but that's, that's not, a struggle between church and state [S5: but within ] um, because, what there is however, [S5: mhm ] what there is is is, lemme first of all, deal with the with the, what_ it's not a struggle it's that Louis wants to have some of the, the borrowed charisma that he can get from this Franciscan and the man says no. thank you no this is_ sorry, this is, government is by nature corrupt. um... but where there is an interesting tension, is when the church excommunicates somebody. and they ask Louis, help us and Louis says i don't happen to agree with you. and here we see a monarch who turns to the church which after all has all kinds of authority and says, my independent judgment, is sufficient authority for me to act, when it comes, even to matters, of, the, presentation, or the safeguarding, or the defense of the faith. that's not the example you had in mind but that's i think a [S5: okay ] that fits much better. 
S5: that was part of one of our one, that we had thought about before um, [S1: yeah ] when he was listening to sort of more like his counsellors or his [S1: yeah ] sort of a bigger institution than he (was and he) [S1: mhm ] (threw 'em out) but, um 
S1: one thing to, to, to think about is, i- with that particular essay is, <P :07> do yourself an organizational favor. um, there's another one <P :09> <WRITING ON BOARD THROUGHOUT NEXT :05 OF UTTERANCE> i guess we could call it independent judgment. <P :07> and, you might, because we've talked of a number of different ways about thinking about, insti- about about authority. um, and what times are institutions, really significant? i guess at the beginning, and towards the end of the class. and what time, is authority a matter, that is personal? clearly... Clovis, on for quite a while. um... and remember institutions is not simply royal but also ecclesiastical, papal. are there points when ideas or books, have authority? this is, i, a- again, could be, really early, antiquity could be Renaissance, could be, later on as well, age of science and, is there a time when independent judgment, and that includes technology, age of technology and science. that is to say, a point when, authority rests in something that is new something that is devised by individuals, a time when, we care about people who are not kings and not soldiers... and there there is clearly such a time later on Galileo, Kepler, Tycho, Copernicus, Newton, see that's another way of_ i want you to think about how you're gonna organize, your answer. <P :04> [S5: um ] yeah. 
S5: and then we went on to we, i mean discussed the thirteenth century, conflict between Innocent the Third and the German monarchy, as being just this, just sort of this (water shedding down,) the institution of religion versus this German monarchy 
S1: yeah a yeah a second, yeah a second um, uh, uh that's that's the, act two of the investiture contest [S5: right. ] that would do.
S5: um, and then, the fo- how fourteenth century and sort of like post-Black Death is, leads to the end of feudalism with the rise of the middle class and, sort of, a more free 
S1: those things happened but i would not necessarily say that those are, that there was the one cause which would be the Black Death, um 
S5: i didn't sa- i just said it was sort of post-Black Death 
S1: okay, um... think here for just a second... 
S2: just the destruction of feudalism, of feudalism 
S1: uh, the decay, i think of feudalism. you know, if you wanted to you could certainly, in in this, um, might not work so well here, well it might, but you might, s- you might want to ask yourself, notions of authority. do those... what does a Black Death do to those? and you can point out that since it was so unexpected 
S5: i- that did like questioning the authorities and the, uh i- help the rise of universities and, new religious ideas and all that kind of stuff 
S1: well the universities are older, [S5: right ] and, so are a couple of the other things that you mentioned what what it does do, is <P :05> it is like, the, the voyages of the Portuguese and of Columbus. it's that, the things that one had relied on for authority before, seem helpless, or ignorant. <P :06> so the whole, idea of what constitutes authority is so- something that people have to ask themselves again. church argues that the Black Death is of course punishment for our sins... but the, the the devastation was so great that people though anew about all kinds of things. had to rethink them. and then the fifteenth century with the discoveries. the fact that no book, written prior... um, mentions them, is a stunning blow to the authority, of, the Bible, and, of, um, the works of classical antiquity. and it raises the question of, the growth of the notion that authority resides, at least in part in personal observation and in experimentation. 
S5: i guess we went kind of on to the Reformation, and, i- i- i- it questions religious authority and sort of, the Pope's actual authority over people's ideas and, sort of spirituality [S1: yeah ] and what not.
S1: for Luther what is the, what is the source of authority? 
S5: the Bible and the personal, reading interpretation 
S1: the Bible sola scriptora the Bible alone. the assumption is of course that people would agree on the interpretation which turned out not to be true. 
S5: um, and then, with, the, science, Lutheran science gives power to the intellectuals and, sort of merchants and, over time the church almost becomes secondary. 
S1: what, what science and technology do is they make it possible for anybody, remember i used the_ i i referred to tinkers and i meant that. i meant that people have the leisure time to thi- sit around and play with uh, you know i dunno... their Fisher Price toys or whatever and and uh, see what you can do with them... i have not in this class talked much about the commercial revolution i just haven't had time. in in a in a longer course we would've had some dis_ more to say about the rise of cities and about the rise of commerce but, just haven't had time in the six weeks. <P :06> yes. 
S6: uh can we do question number four from part two? 
S1: are we are we done with, are we done with question two in part one? 
<P :06> 
S5: with the Scientific Revolution, um, in in terms of authority are, sh- are we saying that... authority is now with those people who can, tinker, and who can invent, and can (observe it or) 
S1: i i don't know if you wanna distinguish it in terms of classes of people but you can say that, that certainly a new source of authority, lies, in, um, observation, experimentation, those who have the power to derive general laws, that is people who can perform mathematical manipulation, so it could be tinkerers, it could be people sitting, um, like like Newton under an apple tree <P :07> does does that? 
S5: yeah, and as at_ by the time of like Newton has the church a- actually become secondary? because like Newton's not burned at the stake as a heretic. 
S1: re- remember i said that most of Newton's writings actually are on church history. [S5: okay. ] uh, i mean he was a mystic. [S5: mhm ] so, i, it is, is it that the church has to, the church has become one of a number of different, actors. so it hasn't become secondary because in parts of Europe, [S5: mhm ] it it has a a vice grip, on on, uh, on people's consciouses and and on their actions but there are other players now. <P :12> i mean it would be absurd for me to_ you know i the reason i don't, don't wanna talk about it as being sort of secondary or s- something like that is is because, in this morning's paper, uh there's this long article about the Republican Platform Committee, and and and, what they're trying, to do with the plank on, on abortion which is of course a, an issue which is extremely important in one way for a couple of denominations, another way for a couple of other denominations. and, and, you know, um, right? the, the newest, what's the newest institution of higher education in Ann Arbor? i think it's in Ann Arbor. 
<P :06> 
S16: Tom Monaghan's, Catholic school, is that what you're talking about? [S1: i can't hear you. ] like, the, that school Tom Monaghan is trying to, 
S1: and and what what is it? 
S16: it's like a, a Catholic law school, i think 
S1: it is a law school and, and it is, it would be, the, uh_ and the and the curriculum, is gonna be formed, uh, along the lines of the great tradition of, of the Catholic teachings and the Catholic law schools. he seems to be not very happy with uh, what i think Fordham has a, nice law school. is there a law school at Notre Dame? must be. [S4: yes ] don't think so? [S4: there is ] there must be, yeah. there there in fact, must be two law s- two law schools because they also teach um, canon law they teach the law of the church. uh, cuz i took, i took a seminar in in Catholic law, Catholic law of marriage and divorce actually from a, from a fr- from a former professor at Notre Dame who's now a regular appointee to the, federal appeals court. um, that's how i that's how i learned how you how, uh_ you know, our law, and the law of the church are really very different. um, um... so for instance, adultery, uh you need i think one witness, in the law of Michigan, Catholic church law you need five witnesses, which is why it's never proven. um, but they have a much, much higher threshold. so so it's an inter- interesting little system. okay anything else on that particular question? 
S5: in terms though would we need more examples than sort of what i gave you? 
S1: well i didn't, i didn't do a, [S5: right right ] a a complete list but i think yeah that's fine. that's fine the crucial thing is, um, crucial thing, is to... is to get the examples in, and be, concise and and and precise. what would you like to do now? <P :06> kill me and, <SU-M LAUGH> yes, yes Ken. 
S3: i'm having some problems, shaping, the fourth large essay, in my mind, um, that reproduce their discussion on this message. [S1: oh, well ] i'm just kind of going, well, [S1: yeah. ] i mean first of all i mean Beowulf, who's Caesar? and then that i mean the very definition of who, each of these would have a different definition -nition of Caesar ge- Be- uh, Beowulf would go, huh? <LAUGH> 
S1: there are traditionally, um, two ways of approaching that question. the first is... each one talks... and, explains, the views, that he has... a second approach is, um, that you think okay what are the possible, ways in which one or the other of them might say this is what Caesar means to me. and then have them go back and forth about that. and and i i'm not looking for something witty <SU-M LAUGH> i mean i have in the past had, some some really, really great essays, on that as works of literature, and some of those also were great works of history as well. but the trap is, the trap is to start a food fight. um, uh so, you could decide, what Caesar means what, what what are the things that are Caesar's what are the things that are Christ's? and and, uh <P :05> Beowulf might be thinking simply, um, he might have to ask somebody what Caesar means, and then kind of decide on his own, um, what that means. um... clearly... clearly with, with, Beowulf you have m- questions of_ alright there is... fame, there is plunder <P :05> there is, the loyalty of one's kin <P :12> is there any <BREAK IN RECORDING> um, as, um okay. 
S11: (xx) i have a s- ideas about women who um ran salons 
S1: and by the way how does that, what does what does that do to women's position? 
S11: it keeps them, in a subordinate role by like casting suspicion on women who, are supposed to have power maybe power over, men or, other people 
S1: it does two things. on the one hand, it's a way of, of policing women, and in the other, uh, it implies, a fear, that you know, if you don't police them, um, they're going to release all kinds of evils, upon all of us. okay keep going. 
S11: um, then i talked about, salons and how they became educated and enlightened by, having all these discussions with men [S1: later on alright that's, uh good ] um i, threw in um, Mary Wols- Wolstoncraft as an example of like the strong um, founder of modern feminism, it's later, indication rights of women, 
S1: that's that's later that's that's, hold that for another course hold that for another course. 
S11: don't go that far? 
S1: don't go that far don't go that far this course this course comes to an end uh, this course comes to an end when it does for two reasons number one limits the time and number two when i get bored with history. [S11: okay ] uh, which occurs a lot er- earlier than than than when my thing 
S11: so, what should what, should be the cutoff point for this essay then? 
S1: well i think i think you can, you could potentially talk about salons, [S11: okay ] okay because that, there are there are salons in Newton's time. who by the way, um, what is the salon about which you know, the most about, in this course? and we actually haven't talked about it but you know a little bit about it. 
S11: you mean a person? or 
S1: a person, who runs, a salon. 
S2: the Grand Duchess of Tuscany? 
S1: yes, the Grand Duchess of Tuscany okay so you can use that... okay those are, those are, tho- tho- those are good examples. mhm, mhm. 
S11: um, i guess you could say that, position doesn't_ you could also take the, stance that it doesn't change that much i mean they're still not getting, the same education, um as men they're having limited, opportunities in that respect [S1: mhm, mhm ] um 
S1: name me the great women philosophers of the Renaissance? thank you. [S11: okay ] <SS LAUGH> um so access to higher education, that is to say, the vast majority of women where, w- we see we see we see exceptions. okay. other ideas about, about that question? yeah you. 
<P :26> 
S14: nothing comes to mind (at the minute) 
S1: okay, how about you. 
S17: uh... i guess... um... you can talk about, after uh, feudalism, like when things started to become a democracy, and uh, women had uh, more roles in society. 
S1: example? 
<P :12> 
S17: not sure. 
S1: okay, i don't think you can use the word democracy in History one-ten. either in terms of the history or in terms of the way i run the class. um, i mean it's, you you can, it's a little early. it's it's it's a little early for (it yet.) [S17: okay ] um, okay, um yeah, i'm sorry. 
S18: i, i couldn't remember the [S1: i'll ca- i'll get to yours ] the date on this so i don't know if it's too early, [S1: no, go ahead go ahead ] to address this question or not, um, the cul- Cult of the Virgin Mary when, did that take place? <SOUND EFFECT S1> was that, that was within this, the boundaries of the question raised? 
S1: you can, you you can talk about the growth of the Cult of the Virgin Mary yes absolu- no quest- about it. yes? 
S19: um i was gonna talk about, how feudalism, obviously, um, lessened the role of women in society because, vassals had, mainly paid their lords back through military, warfare and women, it was impossible for them to be a part of it and then i think once, feudal custom, was demolished or whatever and the scientific, revolution came around and it based more emphasis on, individuals [S1: mhm ] and thinkers, then women weren't so restricted and um, i wasn't here for discussion on the Galileo but just the fact that, he's writing that letter to a woman, is a big, aspect of it. 
S1: yes, yes yes. um, notice by the way that, revolution in military technology does not, make life easier for women either. um <P :10> it's really only handguns that do that. they come in a bit later. um... you know the great, the great (in ure) of this is opera. and in opera the knife is the woman's weapon, which puts her at a distinct, disadvantage, in in most ways. um, okay any other ideas about that particular question yes? 
S2: women in the guilds. like [S1: okay ] (them) taking over the positions of their husbands and [S1: th- yes ] running, (a mastery) shop 
S1: yes, yes so that a woman can actually earn an independent income. something which, you know is, is not entirely accepted in parts of the United States of America. do these tapes get edited? 
R1: they can. 
S1: um, what is the circulation of these tapes? 
R1: none. 
S1: go ahead. 
S18: oh i was gonna say uh, Joan of Arc. [S1: Joan of Arc, yes. ] so i 
S1: and Joan of Arc is interesting because she is, (i'm not) well
S18: yeah i was gonna say sh_ i mean, every, what she accomplished can't be (denied) but at the same time, in the end the way, the way she was treated and found as a heretic and [S1: absolutely ] burned, but then... um, sometime after that, the king of France kinda came around, and, recognized, what she had done for him and had the whole thing kinda r- it was sorta, a complete reversal a little too late. 
S1: but he made no ef- yes, he made no effort to rescue her. [S18: right ] she was better for him dead, than [S18: yes ] she was alive. he was a real schmuck. <SS LAUGH> sorry Joan of Arc was a patron saint of my family. um, uh insofar as Jewish families have patron saints. um, uh, yes. fascinating story do you know why in the end they burned her? 
S18: wasn't, i_ they, were looking for something to catch her on i think, what they finally got her on they told her she couldn't wear, men's clothes and as long as she didn't go back on that she'd be 
S1: they caught her wearing pants the second time. [S18: right. ] walk around this campus and there are [S18: and the details of, i mean why she got caught the second time was ] twenty thousand candidates right for burning today. mo- most of 'em in this room already so be careful but_ yeah no it was, it was doing what men do and especially wearing, men's, outfits, so that you looked to be a man was just, just beyond it the transcripts of the trial which are pretty good (are) a rough estimate. uh, last year we, last year we read them and i think, and maybe in another year we might read them again cuz it's a newer, newer edition. yeah, she's fascinating to me because of what she stands for, and also because she's the exception. one of the interesting things about history is about how there are people who are, who are remarkable, for what they, stand for but also it's remarkable because of the sense also that they are, that they are exceptional. right? uh, classic example is when i teach, modern Middle Eastern history which i do from time to time we'll talk about the position of women in, in Arabic and Persian and, and also Israeli society, and you on the one hand you have Golda Meir, right? we don't have any female presidents in the United States yet. you have Golda Meir but then you sort of look, at the lower levels of, of, of the bureaucracy in (Israeli) society and and you see just what a dazzling exception she is. what Islamic country has the largest proportion of women holding high office? higher than in our country? 
S3: is it Pakistan? 
S1: no... Turkey. Turkey by far, by far. um, okay. uh, anything else on that particular question? that was, a question which woulda been, um, harder on the hour exam but now you can see there are, there are cases. uh, remember, who was it, what, one of you mentioned to me something about, what was it? how, yes, it's Galileo, where the church, is_ and the female, gender [SU-F: mhm ] yeah. um, and, also, isn't there a passage though where he makes, he's he's violently critical, of something that's associated with [S6: yeah ] but when a woman is, it would be as if a woman were our go- i've forgotten the particular passage. 
S6: um, when, when men are actually, uh presenting their ideas to women, and, as if they can actually understand them. right? 
S1: yeah. um, i- it's it's odd. it's odd but yes the the feminization of certain things, it's it it goes two ways. it really goes two ways it's it's it's interesting. anything else you wanna offer on, [S19: i was gonna ask um, ] yes 
S19: is the passage you were talking about the one where, he says something about um, men being taught by women and how that, makes them inferior? is that [S1: is that it? ] is that what it is? [S6: uh, ] the passage about men being taught by women? 
S6: um, i don't know. uh this is, (pretty much you know) talking about scripture 
S2: when women are taking the scriptures and, (sort of) and teaching (other women) 
S19: yeah, i <P :06> it's on page um one-ninety-one 
S1: one-ninety-one. this is Saint Jerome. <READING> others led on by pride weigh heavy words and philosophize amongst women concerning poetry and others, oh shame learn from women what they teach to men </READING> etcetera etcetera etcetera. cuz it's a quotation, but he is using it. um, that's actually a very specific reference, um, to, two people. one was Zenobia the queen of Palmyra, and the second is to... Hypatia, um, mathematician of Alexandria. um... killed by a Christian mob i think, if my memory is correct. um, there was but there was concern about what women could learn and what they, what they what they couldn't learn. and, you know, um <P :06> that took a long time to uh, uh to die. Princeton University, uh, a uh a a great, maybe the third of the Ivy League schools second or third of the Ivy League schools, uh Princeton University, would not, admit women into its graduate school, um, for years and years and years centuries and centuries. an- and in the science programs i think they didn't let women in until nineteen hundred and sixty-five... um, <SNEEZE SU-M> gesundheit. Harvard didn't have its woman, first woman professor until nineteen fifty-five. and i believe she was paid five thousand dollars a year. um, yeah? 
S6: i have a question concerning this quote from Galileo [S1: yeah. ] uh how could he be justified, um in the fact that he's actually sending this letter to a woman how would she have felt about it? 
S1: well, i don't know, you know what she would have made of it and as far as i know about, the documentary record, of it which i don't know well, um, that, that wasn't so much the argument because he was using the quotation, from an earlier source. the fact that, what the salon really was, was i mean she was an intelligent woman she would ask questions about it and he wrote this to respond to her, objections, to the Copernican theory, and to this whole question, of of the goal, of theology, and, what we would call science. um, so he certainly felt that it was worthwhile doing so. he also felt that this would s- in responding to her, he would this would be a way of responding to his critics, and that, and that she would be an appropriate person because she had a certain amount of influence and power and authority, in, among the governing circles. so i think on a whole, the fact that it's addressed to her, is much more important, than this particular, this particular passage. 
S6: but isn't he actually contradicting himself? cuz he is he, in on the one hand he's trying to, use, her authority and her influence, [S1: yes ] and on the other hand he's saying that if he's a real philosopher you shouldn't be, discussing these matters with women. 
S1: i'm not certain that the quotation from, from Jerome, is intended to make precisely that point or whether it's intended to make another point. um <P :14> lemme put it to you this way. um, there is no question, but that Newton, thought about things, in really remarkable fascinating ways, and modern ways. and yet the majority of Newton's writings, are gobbledygook. have to do with whether some text of the Bible was forged, have to do with the transmutation of omens, have to do with alchemy, have to do with a whole bunch of other things, which, to us, is this sheer gibberish. so... now that's that's, the that is, o- part of the inconsistency of of any mind, of any mind. i mean, for God sakes why does anybody read the astrology column of any newspaper? why? [SU-F: entertainment ] pardon me? [SU-F: entertainment value. ] entertainment va- okay. alright let's go a step further. [SU-F: i don't read it but i know a lot of people who do, <LAUGH> so ] um, why [SU-F: (okay) ] why, are there responses, to, to this thing on T-V the Psychic Friends Network? [SU-F: oh God ] right? why, in God's name? um, why is there this gibberish over Roswell? hopelessly misunderstood. right? we won't even get to talk about the X-Files. <SS LAUGH> alright? i think i've given you the statistic, one out of three thousand Americans believes that he or she was abducted by aliens. [SU-F: one out of three? ] o- i'm sorry, one out of three. <SU-F LAUGH> that's my wishful thinking. how many in this room? [SU-F: yeah. ] one out of three thousand. one out of three_ i've given that statistic before surely i have yeah, okay. okay. so, so you know, that when you go to a Michigan football game, that, that there're at least, thirty, real wackos, <SS LAUGH> in that stadium probably more, probably more but but, so i mean i think the inconsistency is not something, that should surprise us. anything else? i detect a certain restlessness here. <P :10> yes? 
S10: are our papers graded yet? 
S1: uh i have read the papers, i am not done with them, because, i had to do something, that i regret, that i didn't used to do but i now have to do, which is to check for plagiarism. and that requires, uh there're a couple of... i- i won't talk about the, techniques. i'm sorry i've had, in the last term i've had two cases. and the last time before that i had_ was in nineteen seventy-five. i'm profoundly disturbed by it, by the fact that i have to spend time doing this, and what it implies of course about our relationship. but but um, i've i've been (xx) i- i mean, i i'm i'm, i have nothing else on my agenda today but to finish off that. so you could stop_ what's tomorrow? tomorrow's Wednesday...? uhh, i've gotta come in tomorrow you could come by tomorrow and get 'em. or you could check with me late this afternoon. otherwise i'd bring 'em to the, to the exams. um, i i'm on the whole, uh well pleased. i'm on the whole well pleased... um... yes? 
S19: just to double check the exam is in our regular room right? 
S1: unfortunately the exam is in our regular room [S19: great ] i have no, other place. now you tell me something, cuz, because, i mean one reason that I didn't finish, those things is because, Haven Hall is being destroyed, mercifully, and and we've had to move and i had to pack, forty-six boxes of books. um, most of which i have not read, many of which i never will read, uh but i had to do that, because the schedule_ so this, and, so therefore, a certain amount of stuff that i have is now in some box, unidentified. when is the exam? 
SS: ten thirty, ten (xx) 
SU-M: ten thirty to twelve thirty. 
S1: does anybody have a syllabus? did you have any other questions by the way? (xx) 
SU-M: ten thirty to twelve thirty. 
S1: ten thirty to twelve thirty. we're agreed on that? <SU-F LAUGH> okay, so ten thirty to twelve thirty. please bring a blue book... okay? anything else...? alright. do you have a clear idea of, the way in which i look at these questions? yes yes no no yes? 
S2: w- can we email you in the next two days or? 
S1: yes but emailing me after the exam will not be_ you said the next two days yeah i will, let let let's do this. um, i tend to look at email first thing in the morning, and last thing at night so, if you have sent me a message, um, i will give you a relatively full answer i will do that for you but, um, you might wanna check, you know last thing Wednesday night. um, 
S2: or just (call when you get in) 
S1: or or first thing or first thing, Thursday morning. now, what i, what i will not respond to is, how should i answer X. that that i won't respond to but if you have a thought to offer, then_ i mean i think i've been relatively forthcoming today, on, on some of this so, so i would i would respond. i would respond to your ideas and tell you, what i thought either of the idea itself, or of the evidence, or or of the presentation. there's only one last thing that i could tell you i swear this to you, on God's, God's right arm. in a world in which writing means a certain amount still, this is crucial <POINTS TO WORD 'DICTION'> this is crucial. this is the only thing, um... that that, that distinguishes the average Michigan undergraduate, from the average, Harvard or Princeton or Yale undergraduate. it is not a matter of intelligence it is not a matter of where you went to school or something like that. and so as you go out and look for jobs or things like that. um and it doesn't take a heck of a lot. i mean it it's one of these things where, um, find a good novelist, and read a couple of novels a year you'll get used to the rhythms and and, things in language, um, and and that's all i mean it's si- simply something like, i don't know, go buy a copy of the Hound of the Baskervilles and watch how he uses language. it isn't that you have to read uh, Aristotle, i mean Aristotle uses the languages, language well but i will tell you, i read Aristotle to put me to sleep. and he does a wonderful job of it so you don't have to go that far. but, the one thing that i've noticed when we talked about these things today, is right i mean, you know i picked on you. you know what you intended to write. i think i know what you intended to write. but at various times you write a letter of, of, um of, you know, asking for a job or something like that, and, and and it's good to be able to choose, the right word. um, end of sermon. okay. i'll see you all, i trust i'll see you all, Thursday morning. 
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