



<BACKGROUND CONVERSATIONS FIRST 2:20> 
S1: okay. i'm gonna hand out something else for you. okay. i, you know i have another, of, of your paper i have (xx) your other thing.
SU-F: oh really.
S3: African migration you're like (xx) (African) migration.
S10: what are you talking about?
S3: migration 
S10: Thornton? 
S3: is yeah. 
S10: that's what i 
S3: migration is voluntary. 
S10: (wrote like in that) (xx) like when he when he told us to like say something that we would have responded in class, i was like i couldn't even like look at that like, that was like on the second [S3: mhm ] paragraph of that book. you know what i'm saying?
S3: i was like the African migration. 
S10: and it was like it was like, it was like, the African migration has not [S3: yeah ] received as much attention as the European migration [S3: and i'm like ] and i was like you know what last time i checked
S3: that's that's that's like contrasting apples and oranges (you know what i'm) (xx) 
S10: right. i was like, i don't know the hostage situation [S3: right. ] (xx) like?
S3: like he put like a happy little 
S10: because if you
S1: i'm picking up the, i'm picking the r- i'll take the book reviews now while you're giving them to me so, they don't get confused (so) i have, they have their own folder here, they'll be very safe, and, and i expect to give them back, next Tuesday.
SU-M: professor Carter
SU-M: oh wow.
SU-M: is it alright if i email you my, paper?
S1: yeah. (can) you do it today? so i can 
SU-M: sure. 
S1: thank you. and then um, i hope you'll stay here today, and 
SU-F: could you move i put, two or three of them right here so 
S1: yeah mhm 
S3: okay i have a um question to ask you i have my rough draft with me so i want you to like read the paper, but i left my disk at home. [S1: uhuh ] y- can i email the final to you and i'll [S1: uhuh ] i'll just like get it to you like as soon as i get home, fr- [S1: yeah. ] finished with classes, [S1: okay ] i'll give you the rough draft [S1: okay. ] just so you know i did it, it's done, but i just, the editing.
S1: that's okay if you email it to me today you don't have to give me the rough draft (then)
S3: okay.
<END BACKGROUND CONVERSATIONS> 
S1: okay i i don't know whether, you wanna start but we're, we, we have some business to take care of which is part of the class too so are you, are you recording? okay um, now i promise to, give out the uh, the the uh, take home essay, final, assignment, today. so i have it here, and um, i just wanna know what what usually happens. if i give you this, do you all then disappear and i see you again? [SU-M: yeah ] <SS LAUGH> or i say goodbye to you today. <SS LAUGH> um, or will you return to class on, on, on, Thursday [SU-F: Thursday ] and, Tuesday. 
SU-F: we'll be here 
SU-F: we'll be, we'll show up 
S2: yeah dude we're, we're here all the time.
SU-F: we're like the core group.
S1: Thursday 
<SS LAUGH> 
S2: we're good students
S1: you're the core group there're another fifty people who never come, <SS LAUGH> who never show up at all. and i appreciate having the group the core group here. um, so um, let me go let me_ if i can get a cop- one copy of it i'll go through it with it, go through, it with you.
S3: do we get extra credit for coming? <SS LAUGH> like when you consider our grades like, [S1: you're all getting (that) ] keep in mind the core group who's here, on a regular basis. [SU-F: yeah. ] you know?
S1: well i think that it'll it it'll show up in the, it's already shown up, in some of the stuff you've written and it'll show up, some more. um... so, let's go through it again um, it's due in my mailbox at four P-M on December eighteenth, um, and then my mailbox is in University Towers. okay is everyone okay with that? we'll go through one, piece at a time okay. um
S4: can we drop it off at the, (xx) (center? the history department) (xx?)
S1: i would not do that. particularly at that time of year. cuz the mail, service is
S4: cuz i don't know where University Towers is
S1: uh the University Towers is the biggest building on South University, Avenue.
S4: i guess i would have to know where South University is then right? <LAUGH>
SU-F: it's by Ulrich's
S1: South University starts at the Michigan Union and goes, heads east from there.
SU-F: Ulrich's
SU-F: Ulrich's Cafe Ja- Cava Java
SU-M: Jimmy John's
S5: do early papers go
S1: (xx) (the south end of the quad)
SU-F: Burger King
SU-F: Brown Jug
S4: okay okay <SS LAUGH> i got that street.
SU-F: that's the street.
S1: okay. there're two, 
S5: do early papers go in there also? 
SU-F: right next door to Coney Town 
SU-F: yeah, and like Hill is the cross street
S1: yeah mhm, two tall, two tall building- really tall buildings in the, one is over here on Maynard and the other is, 
SU-F: South Forest 
S3: Forest. Forest. <SU-F LAUGH>
SU-F: okay this is Ulrich's 
S1: okay (that's right) 
SU-F: yeah. South Forest. that's the cross street. South Forest and then South University it's on the corner 
S1: and the history department's on the second floor. and you can get into the building until five o'clock but, i'd like to have them by four that's why i said four o'clock, so none of you have problems getting in. um, this 
S5: if they're done early can they just go the- is that where you want 'em also, or 
S1: yeah put them in there that's fine. [S5: alright ] [S3: okay good. ] i, and i don't mind if you have discussions with others in the class regarding the work at hand, but your writing must absolutely be your own individual work. uh, quotations should be footnoted, and arguments from sources from Fred should be cited by source and the page. um or if you say if you're, restating something or using some points that i made in the lecture you could say, um, lecture, Carter's lec- from Carter's lecture, if you if you know the date, that would be fine. to add that. and, i'd like to see some detail, uh in the, specific detail in, in the essays to anchor and support your discussion. um, c- because this is a take home exam i'll expect that your writing is, is sound, will be sound so, do review your work carefully co- correct your work and, revise and, check it, um, again before producing your final essays. uh so there're then two, s- sets here two pairs and so you choose one from, roman numeral one and one from numer- roman numeral two. and i'm real concerned i d- i did a lot of thinking about this, spent a lot of time, thinking about it, and i do not want you to say well, i like A and B of number one so i'm just gonna do that then, i'm just gonna_ you know i_ it doesn't seem like i'm a hard and fast kind of person, but on this one, i really want you to choose one i absolutely re- require you to choose from, roman numeral one and one from roman numeral two and not do two from, the same, uh the same one. uh indeed, i think you'll um, see how in roman numeral one, the two different_ uh the choices have a kind of conversation with each other so, it wouldn't, make sense to, as a, an exam to, to have you write on both things. so Djeliba and Mabo did, after all, meet again in this one, but just uh, those of you who are so fed up with that don't want to s- see anymore of that, can just skip past that and do, something else. <P :05> um... so A is <READING> we have read histories of two African kingdoms or empires, the Mali Empire and the Zulu Empire, both histories are at least in part based on oral tradition, and both deal with the foundation of new and powerful states in Africa. </READING> i want you to compare these two treatments in terms of the question of, the ethics of domination. and then B is, <READING> Djeliba comes to meet Mabo a third time and this time Mabo is a graduate student in history.</READING> you could say at the University of Dakar which has a distinguished graduate program in, African history, <READING> he reads aloud to Djeliba the entirety of the Mofolo book.</READING> because we assume that Djeliba is not a reader himself so, versed in oral tradition that he would want to read, hear this book or comes to grips with it, uh as, an oral reading. <READING> the two discuss whether the constitution of powerf- powerful centralized states in Africa, is after all something that should be celebrated. </READING> there's certainly with the, Sunjata, uh epic uh as presented by Niane, it is a celebration of um, the foundation of a kingdom or empire, whereas, uh, for us and probably for Mabo, the Mofolo book uh raises questions about, what is there to be celebrated about the establishment of a powerful, kingdom or a powerful state. so i'd like you to construct a conversation between Djeliba and Mabo on this issue. <READING> as they define some of the positive and neg- negative features of the Ma- Mali and Zulu states, and as they consider some of the issues surrounding the relationships of some African states, with the unfolding Atlantic slave trade </READING> another, arena in which we have, uh come across questions about, uh the way in which African states participate in the slave trade and, and how, uh, what to what extent, this was a positive or negative feature. um, and also not forgetting or while also recognizing the perspectives of the authors, of the two works that is, they each have, are presenting a kind of perspective on, on on the state um, and you should take that into account. then under roman numeral, two <READING> in recent decades much has been said about overpopulation on the African continent. some have termed this, population bomb and some have attributed crises in African development, to high rates of fertility and reproduction on, the African continent. </READING> um, even some i i didn't really want to, put it in here have attributed to, um heightened, what they they consider as heightened, sexuality among, people on the African continent or African people. <READING> in some of these arguments there is a sense that, the essential features of Africa were relatively stable, even resistance, to_ resistant to change from time immemorial. and in other arguments there is the view that, the essential features of Africa changed dramatically, under the influence of events and forces outside Africa's control. in a well argued essay develop a portrait, of the population issue in Africa from, Africa's early, past up to the nineteenth century, confronting this question of continuity and change. <P :04> and the last is uh, taking a quote from Thornton, and develop an essay on it, my_ he says <READING> my examination of the military and political relations between Africans and Europeans, concludes that Africans controlled the nature of their interactions with Europe. Europe- Europeans did not possess, the military power to force Africans to participate in any, type of trade, in which their leaders did not wish to engage. therefore all African trade with the Atlantic including the slave trade, had to be voluntary. <END> and i think there's a lot of grist to, to take up in that, that one um, so uh are there any, questions well you know we can take some few minutes and discuss each each and any one of these yep Yatanya?
S4: um, can you further define the ethics of domination...? for question, A part one.
S1: well, um, i think a a, the the point, applies in both. um, is that um... that there there's no doubt that we're talking in both of, these examples and in other ones dealing with Africa about systems of domination in which, there were there are, are rulers and ruled. and, um, you'll remember that i, um, put on the board this, uh a couple times this uh, this continuum of nice and evil uh, you know that, there seem to be forms of domination in Africa that were, um, um organized and cultivated to attract, people voluntarily to join, join a leader, and provide, that leader with more, uh, persons more power more reproductive capacity. and um, that you know that's what i put on the ni- those kinds of, uh practices that, were associated with that, form of, leadership or domination we put on, the ni- you know i drew some out of the discussion we had and, put them on the, over on the nice side of, the continuum. and then there were other forms of of domination, that revolved around um, uh, seem- (seemingly) involuntary, means of control that, could identify through conquest, of other peoples through (subjection) of people to forced labor and slavery, and to other, elements of control i_ you know life and death control over, over, individuals uh, a low regard for, the, the lives of subjects on the part of rulers, and and that, is, um, we put on sort of the evil side of the continuum. now i didn- the that was just ev- nice and evil, continuum, which is put there to hel- you know assist in the discussion um, i'm not, asking you to buy, into that. it just seemed a way, that we could differentiate, one way we could differentiate different practices, of of leadership of different practices of domination. then there's another, aspect of the ethics of domination i think, you should, think about that came out of some of the discussions and i think, is in s- in some of the readings, is that, domination isn't al- only about, the exercise of power over people and the, um, and the uh, way in which leaders, and, and rulers um, choose to exercise thei- their power but it's also, about the way, subjects, understand and participate, in these uh forms of domination so i, i see ethics being sort of like... <WRITING ON BOARD NEXT :32> there is uh, you know may- maybe two, two axes one, something like the... the nice and evil, but there's also an axis that has to do, with the perspective of <P :04> whose <P :05> whose whose benefit, is all this production of of power and expression of power? to whose end? whose, whose benefit? and uh, i i think different people have, in a social or political situation will have different uh understandings of what those ethics, are.
S3: that really applies to the Zulu cuz i did my paper on Terrific Majesty and i thought it was really ironic that, the Europeans the British who were in Natal were condemning Shaka's um cuz when, Shepstone started his system of native administration they condemned Shaka's way of, um ruling his people but in the end, all they wanted to do was force the African people into, into labor, themselves. [S1: mhm mhm ] and 
S1: and were and were willing to adapt, [S3: right ] a Shakan like system into their own administration [S3: do to that ] (of) natives, so-called natives you know.
S3: right and i just think that's really ironic just, it depends on the perspective like, both systems could be [S1: mhm ] considered evil [S1: yeah ] cuz it's you know it's forced, [S1: mhm ] labor and
S1: and there's something that i, that's in in my mind that y- you saw it in this book in in in the book but, it is, um, this Zulu, praise expression that's sometimes spelled <WRITING ON BOARD> baye- bayede, and sometimes, bayeti... and it's in, um m- Mofolo's book and it's also in um, uh Caroline Hamilton's book. is that uh, this is the praise, remember one of the in mof- Mofolo's books one of the things, he di- introduced Shaka introduced, uh in as, when he organized his power, was, uh this praise bayede , which when, people, met him or saw him they would use this expression. which is, you know the, all the films of the the na- Nazi Germany is Heil Hitler it's a similar kind of, praise except, that his should only be used in the for the king or the ruler of the Zulu. and and, paradoxically or, curiously, it was also used, for Shepstone. you know uniquely. but not used for anyone else. so, th- i mean it's very powerful in the nineteen, eighties when, two hundred and fifty thousand people or or in nineteen-oh-seven or nineteen-oh-eight two hundred and seventy, fifty thousand people, uh, call out bayede, simultaneously. now, for, the s- the South African government and white observers of this, uh, this praise, when that when hundreds of thousands of people, spoke this praise simultaneously chanted it, you had a kind of Nuremburg type effect it was extremely powerful and influential, and it promoted this idea that all Zulu, believed, simultaneously, believed, equally, in the power of of Shaka or the power of Shepstone. but i, you know, i i have cause to wonder, whether people who chant a praise, in a mob or a crowd all, have the exactly same feeling, about what the praise is and what the leadership is. it's something that you do in a crowd and i think, it actually may suggest just the opposite, that there were all kinds of, tensions about, what this authority over individuals meant and how individuals would participate, in this, this system. so that, if an individual all he had to do wa- to show his loyalty, to Shaka, was at the per- right moments to produce this praise, it doesn't say much more than that about the loyalty of Sh- of of people it might even say less, about their loyalty if all you have to do is sing this, this praise, or chant this praise and so, you know i think it just opens up a q- questions about the, the (sign) of seams and, crevices and differences, among people and how they, respond, to leadership and how the perspective is, is different and that they're, and this is what i mean by an ethic or ethics of, of of domination in in that, in that sense. so, that's what i'm, getting at and thank you for your, (help.) and o- other, are there questions about the other one? again, yeah.
<SS LAUGH> 
S4: for, part two B, can it be opinionated? 
S1: in in Asantes society there is someone who, who speaks for the chief you don't_ this chief doesn't speak directly you speak to this person, (it's) called the <SS LAUGH> <:07 PAUSE WHILE WRITING> the Okyeame and (here Yatanya's the, uh Okyeame.) go ahead
S4: for part B can it be opinionated? 
S1: would you speak a little louder? 
S4: can part B be opinionated for, two two B? 
S1: you mean can you express your opinions or? 
S4: yes.
S1: well you i think that you, from our readings and the work you've done already, you, you know, that Djeliba is a griot, an oral, a specialist in oral tradition who has a-
SU-M: two B
S3: two B
SU-M: not one B 
S4: yeah 
SU-F: the one about Thornton
S1: oh [SU-F: Thornton ] Thornton, your opinions, yeah but i think they should be aform- informed. don't you think? i mean, [SS: (xx) ] i'll s- i'll s- i'll go out the door and walk in and say, Th- this is a load of nonsense. okay? <SS LAUGH> um how many is that six words or something? <SS LAUGH> but i'd like more more than that you know because, maybe the next person comes in and Thornton says, you know i've got all the detail i've got all the, i have, i have all those maps i know everything going on in this subject, and you've gotta produce some, stronger argument than than this is just a bunch a nonsense. <SU-F LAUGH> i've actually heard, Thornton respond to critics in that way that that, i mean (xx) he produces a lot of, of information for you and so does uh Reader i think to, to develop an argument with him. but it also, you you know i think it not only calls for, some detail some empirical detail it also, you can also address the logic or illogic of this argument you know. wh- what in the why in the heck use the word voluntary in this system or something you know it's just, a starting point. you know why, wh- what is it about, this whole discussion that, a word like voluntary becomes such an important word to to form an argument? 
S6: i was just gonna say that this question seems more like it's, um, answers your your sixth see- uh theme of the course which is, Africa determined or negotiated, [S1: mhm ] and it seems like if y- you could take the stance well this is wrong because, Reader said this or you could say this is right because Thornton says this and he uses these this information. [S1: mhm ] so it seems like 
S1: well i think that, it helps you fi- i think you're exactly right it helps find a way, in discussing, the complexities of that, determined or negotiated you know that it's kind of like, this s- space you get into and you can't quite liberate yourself from this space cuz, the issues are d- you know about whether Africans have agency, do things on their own you know if you say they're involuntary then what is it gonna say about, Africans' ability to form and constitute their own societies form states and, yeah participate in the economies and so forth. yeah (xx) 
S7: not to be cute or anything but i answered that exact question, for my paper, [S1: uhuh ] and, i'm not sure but i think i did a pretty good job on it, and i, <SS LAUGH> simply reproduced... [SU-F: (xx) (do you mean that) to be arrogant? ] cuz i think i think i even used that_ this quote and, [SU-M: yeah i ] and and, [SU-M: <LAUGH> i think i did too ] to try to tear it apart but
S1: uhuh, yeah i find the the weak link in the Thornton's (xx) that we all find (xx) 
S7: no actually i used another quote [S1: okay ] with similar kind of, [S1: mhm ] uh, 
S1: and so the question is can (you wanna) 
S7: i'm just wondering i mean i don't want i mean will you will you consider it, plagiarism if i cheat off myself or <SS LAUGH>
S1: i thi- i think that, uh
S7: will you remember it if i write the same thing? <SS LAUGH>
S1: (xx) they're, they're two different exercises and the the the that, you_ that i, that, they they're independent of each other and you have to make your own judgment and i'm not gonna, i'm gonna not gonna, put them_ one down, compare it to the old, the other one, in detail. you know i'll just have an idea you know i, i write little notes to myself i have this, Residential College, practice of, you know that, you're supposed to write comments not just grades so i have comments on, each paper so i i will know what your paper's, done but i'm not_ if you want to do that, that's that's fine. 
S7: i i don't i don't but 
S1: okay, okay. 
S8: well i was sorta thinking the same thing when i saw it but, uh i guess, the way that i read it is that um the the assignment about the book review was to review the book, [S1: yeah ] in comparison to itself whereas the question here is comparing it to other books and other things [S1: yeah ] from the class. [S1: mhm ] so it would be a completely different answer.
S1: i think so too probably yeah unless the first was stretched, in some way. [SU-M: (xx) ] okay <SU-M LAUGH><P :09> so um, i w- i wanted to uh, to t- to, start talking today and and Thursday about the, uh, the nineteenth century. you okay about moving ahead? [SU-F: uhuh ] okay um, one, one general point that i, um, comes to mind is that, hi- African historians of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, seem to need, a nineteenth century Africa for certain, for certain things. um and i'd like to just put that on the table what the what i'm, uh what this, this need, for having, being able to characterize nineteenth century Africa in certain ways. um, is that, in_ from the eighteen eighties, virtually all of Africa uh, uh came un- within twenty, uh or twenty-five years by, between eighteen eighty and nineteen-oh-five, virtually all of Africa, came under European imperial domination. and Europeans, uh sought to create institutions to control Africans to f- to get their labor to have Africans pay taxes to pay the costs of administration, other things that i talked about, early, in the course. and uh, this new um, system that, that the British, French, um, s- eventually the Italians also the Belgians, and the Germans, up until the end of the First World War, um, that they were trying to evolve there, was, as i've said at different times a- a couple times, uh supposed to be a cheap system that paid for itself. Europe was not willing to invest huge amounts of resources, in the administration of these colonies. and some of the arguments about how Europeans got into the, got into these colonies is that, they they backed in them against their own interests and wishes, um, um political kind of diplomatic struggles, having to do with Europe were transferred onto the African continent and claims were made, in, in Africa, uh for different territories the French doing this, to, to re- react against the Germans, or the British doing this to react against the French, that in Africa, people were exercising, uh countries in Europe were exercising, their interests, um even when they saw the dangers, of, of getting involved, the dangers and costs of getting involved more deeply in Africa. um, and the nineteenth century that is the period let's say from, the late-eighteenth call it a kind a average nin- nineteenth century from the late eighteenth u- seventeen eighties or seventeen nineties up until the eighteen eighties, this, era um, was was one in which, um European, interests companies governments were all over the place in Africa, but were withholding themselves from getting in- more deeply involved. and the reason that i think historians need, a certain kind of nineteenth century Africa or why, Europe needed a certain kind of nineteenth century Africa, is that they have to, um, do t- uh their arguments about empire about uh, <SPEAKING TO STUDENT LEAVING> see ya, [SU-F: see ya ] their arguments about empire, about the responsibilities, were, she's not walking out on us [SU-F: oh ] she said she had to leave early um, <SU-F LAUGH> had to be configured around uh, uh, two, two kind of competing principles one principle was, that, uh, that, Africa, needed, um the involvement of European a justification for Europeans being there. that Africa needed civilization it needed modernity it needed, uh European presence to completely end the effects of the slave trade and slavery in Africa. so that there was an absolute need, for Europe to come in and transform, Africa this kind of transformative need, reform or transform. and second, that, while Europe was smart, benign, humane, and wasn't gonna transform Africa very much it was gonna work with Africans in their own institutions bring people along, slowly, steadily, uh through education, uh through giving people uh marginal rights through protecting their rights through protecting African institutions. and these two, arguments, fo- that came about in the early twentieth century or the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, um, that that Afri- Africa had to be tra- transformed and Africa had to be, retained, um were two arguments that went hand in hand and kind of worked with each other and against each other and and Eur- neither Europe or Africa could effe- escape, from the effects of these two. so that, given the presence of those two, positions those two arguments, nineteenth century Africa, it would be useful if nineteenth century Africa could be, uh presented, as a period of... of um, terrible uh uh, strife, difficulties, um, um, kinds of, uh a lot of negative things going on in Africa that needed to be, ended, cured, and healed, or simultaneously, that all those things that, people thought about Africa that it was primitive and uncivilized, were actually kind of wrong that there were institutions in Africa that Europeans could work with that there were states that could be grafted on in a kind of Shepstonian, manner, um onto European institutions and made to work, to keep the price of imperialism, uh costs down. so that when people, historians, and others, attempted to develop pictures of the nineteenth century this long nineteenth century the pictures that they developed s- s- seemed to have these, these two, two features of them. a look, towards a look at events in the nineteenth century as representing, Africa's own uh reform, uh of of itself of its own problems of dealing with its own problems in ways that could be made_ thought of as continuous, with the new reforms that Europeans are bringing in, or secondly that Africa could be represented, uh Afr- events in Africa could be representative of something as an anathema to African uh to European ideas about what cev- civilization should be. and um, the Zulu, uh the story of the Zulu empire you can see, is uh a story about, you know how_ is also a story about how Europeans or South African government (and) society, uh a- at large was dealing with that phenomenon. the Buganda society i mentioned i talked about last week, is an example of um, a set of processes and developments underway, that Europeans herald- heralded, as uh representing uh could herald as representing um, the capacities of of African institutions to reform and build themselves in ways that would cheapen the costs of imperial responsibilities and could be incorporated in in imperial um, um world. uh imperial, system. uh and, so then, what was going on and_ talked about South Africa, East Africa what is going on in West Africa. well the, the major characteristics of uh weth- West Africa, um, there_ in a sense for the nineteenth centuries there are... to oversimplify a little bit, there are two West Africas. there is the area of the former empires of uh Ghana Mali Songhai, the Sahelian or western Sudanic region uh north of the, West Africa forest uh, uh represented today by countries of Senegal, Gambia, Mali Burkina fas- Faso parts of of Guinea, northern, Cote d'Ivoire, northern Ghana, um, parts of southern, Niger, Northern Nigeria, uh southern Chad northern Cameroon, but this belt, of this Sahelian or Sudanic belt, was one region. the other region uh was this area that had now for, several centuries been con- (had) contact directly with European, trading institutions, and the Atlantic, uh trade especially the Atlantic slave trade. and so th- there were really two, um, arenas in which, um, significant events took place in, in the nineteenth century. um in for the period, for this, Sudanic period that's what i wanna talk about today, uh and i'll try to go through s- swiftly, this um the major characteristic or major, event that was repeated over and over again throughout the region, uh was the Islamic revolution. a transformation, of a, society once, one region sub- region of the Sudanic, belt, uh after another, by a, a movement that we call an Islamic, revolution. uh and i have a quote here that, pretty much from from Adu Boahen's paper in our Reader readings, and parts of it comes from Ajayi, um you can find the, the citation actual citation to Ajayi, and Ajayi is another one of our reading, uh but this is a different article, um, that, uh, t- that, takes these is- series of Islamic revolutions pretty much reduces them, to um two or three sentences, uh and i think that it pretty much represents, what uh the general story is of these, uh revolutions. what was going on in the Sudan, um around eighteen hundred, was that, the uh, the old system of empires, in the western Sudan had fallen away, about two centuries earlier. and what one had were a series of small states or city states, hundreds of them across the Sudan. um, each with their own, um, governance, each with their own uh local economy, uh their own methods of extraction, um but across the whole region, you would say uh y- if you you know were looking at them, uh they would be, over any kind of hundred two hundred three hundred mile a- region they'd look pretty similar. if you compared, the ones in northern Nigeria, to the ones in southern Mali they would look different, but the ones in northern Nigeria would s- look pretty much the same and as you moved across the belt, there would be similarities in any small region, that's kind of probably, an obvious, an obvious point. um they were interconnected by, trade routes um, market systems uh uh calendrically organized market systems, that moved around among the the states, um and connections, uh also through, um, uh, networks of Islamic scholarship, that um, connected all these almost all these city states, uh in uh were, governed by, um Muslim rulers, and had within their, the cities, an urbanized elite population that was substantially Muslim. And in every one of these city states almost every one of them, there we- there was at least one mosque central mosque there were, center of Islamic scholarship and learning, and Islam was, uh not only seated in the town but was a means of connection, of the whole region, in and of itself and to Islamic communities all over the world. through uh periodic pilgrimages through the tra- through travel, uh through trade among, Muslim, uh traders. but, the uh, the slave trade, had... had in it's own, time pulled resources away from, these networks, into exchange systems of the Atlantic, and, i think most, historians, agree that this area, uh of the Sudanic belt became poorer as a result of the, um Atlantic slave trade the whole region became impoverished it was dependent on long distance trade, production for long distance trade, and those trade routes moved south and the controlling elements those slave trade, those routes moved south. this is one, uh explanation for the collapse of these large empires is there was, ver- apparently very little profit involved in holding them, all together that could support an im- a broad imperial system, that could claim control of city states over five hundred or a thousand miles so, that by eighteen hundred, these areas uh were probably between fifteen hundred and eighteen hundred, these this whole region had gone through a, uh a process of economic decline, and um, at the same time, um, the uh slave trade had probably, um, uh, introduced, the slave trade across the Sahara the slave trade to the south had probably strengthened, the uh th- um, strengthened the the use of forced labor or slave labor in the um, economies of these uh city states. so that, on the one hand they became poorer and the other hand, they became, more, involved with the, with the organization of, of uh labor, the organization of society based on, force and uh forced labor. uh, there were, in the um, nineteenth century, uh there were, four major, uh Islamic revolutions that took place, in West Africa that were, uh re- c- clearly related to one another there was a, there were other revolutions, east of there in the s- Sudan, uh in Chad and Sudan, that um, were not, as closely related though the timing of them, uh could be said to be related. uh there was the Hausaland revolt of eighteen-oh-four, and these uh revolutions in, the western, uh in this area of Senegambia Mali and Guinea, three of them. uh that lasted right up into the time that, uh the French started to occupy the Senegambia region, uh in the uh (xx) to go inland and become involved, with the uh, uh those communities that were in revolt in the eighteen seventies samor- Samori Toure, uh is considered an Islamic revolutionary, but also is one of the leading uh examples of of resistance to European conquest, uh beginning in the eighteen seventies and uh th- into eight- end of the eighteen eighties. and uh, each of these revolutions um, involved the um, the unmaking of traditional authorities, traditional political authorities, in the region, the establishment of a, uh of a caliphate with a, uh, a leader, and a state based on Islamic principles, and the the building of, uh or the, spreading of Islam, from the cities from the elite, to the mass of the population or beyond, i shouldn't say, from the elite to the mass of the population, because the mass of the population, was generally in revolt against the, the elites. there are, um, two uh, um, i'm gonna go to roman numeral, twenty-eight, uh if, a lot of these uh these is- these revolutions, look similar to one another. yeah?
S2: um, so you just said that the, that each revolution um... so what they had in common was that they unmade, the governments? (and then) 
S1: un- unmade the traditional, overthrew the traditional authorities, in the region, where they, they operate. um, the there're two, gen- general process models of, Islamic revolutions in Africa, or in the world, one is, based on, a sociological and comparative analysis of a number of revolutions and, that's the f- and the the on the outline that's one through six. and the second is that there's actually a model, within Islamic thought and Islamic his- historiography, an- a model of, of revolution, that is based on the prophet Mohammed's own life history. and they, you know in some ways they interrelate and some ways they they don't (you know) i think it's, it's pretty interesting to keep both of them, in mind. uh and i've put them there and you can look at them, uh, uh your, yourself i wanted to talk, specifically about the revolution, in Islamic revolution in in uh northern Nigeria or what was called Hausaland, uh that began uh in in uh eighteen-oh-four. um the... uh in the late eighteenth century, there was a milit- a militant, form of uh Islam that was spreading across the wester- uh the Sudan region, um moving from, uh, west to east one of the, if you just look at the, the nineteenth century and you look at at when the reve- when these revolutions take place, it looks like they spread from, east to west but that's because we haven't looked at the revolutions, in the eighteenth century is that, in the eighteenth century there was a series of Islamic revolutions in this region and it's from there, that the, uh, the ideas and some of the personnel involved in re- revolutions to the, to the east uh spread and then worked back west again. and in northern Nigeria um, uh started to s- uh this this region, here which today has, probably a hundred or a hundred and twenty million people. it started uh to uh, experience um, the movement into, uh the region, of ex- is- uh militant uh, Islamic, leaders associated with the Tijaniyya brotherhood. these were as- ascetic, um, devout, uh, fundamental, um, believers in Islam, uh who uh, moved about, uh, the, th- these regions and maintained contact with each, with each other. and under the Tijaniyya, there were, a series of, sort of sub-unit brotherhoods, and, it was the Torodbe, uh specifically the Torodbe brotherhood, uh within the Tijaniyya, that um, moved into this region of northern Nigeria. and what uh one of the, the things that, happened is that the Torodbe, were particularly associated with the Fulani, or Fula, or Peul P-U, speaking people, who tended in this period to be more mobile, to be uh pastoralists or or semi-nomadic, who moved back and forth across this region. sometimes carrying trade goods sometimes just moving the livestock animals, from one place to another, and, um, re-establishing themselves, over time uh, further to the, the east and, the Torodbe were es- especially uh, associated with the Fulani, Fular. Peul speaking people. i think i've spelled this (wrong) i think it's P-E-U-L. <WRITING ON BOARD> sometimes, the language family is called Pular or, Fular. and what they found when they got to northern ni- as they came into northern Nigeria, is they found the city states, dominated by, um, rulers who were Hausa speaking and the states, the cities themselves, were Hausa, speaking. um a one of the, Fula teachers, was named Uthman dan Fodio. and um, he, got into a series of arguments a kind of Luth- Martin Luther type arguments, with the Islamic clerics who were associated with the rulers of these Hausa city states. and the argument, uh went like this the, uh, Uthman said that, uh, while these rulers, were Muslim, claimed to be Muslim, and while they accommodated Muslim scholars, and protected the mosque in their towns, that, they did not abide by the restrictions the ideals of orthodox Islam. and that in fact, that the rulers' patronage, of, of the, Muslim scholars in the towns the, the patronage of, Islam in the town, actually uh was actually the opposite of what, it looked like. that it was a way of maintaining, the illusion, of an Islamic community, without it being Islamic at all it allowed the, rulers to get away, with having the presence, of this more cosmopolitan population in the town and being able to kind of domesticate them to the interests of the Hausa city state. and the, the rulers' own, identification with Islam was a pretense, in order to keep these foreign elem- these foreign elements who connected them, through trade systems, cultural systems to the wider world. and um, and so that, what Uthman was saying, was that, Islam was being maintained, in these city states, pretty much as a foreign, uh accommodation to a foreign religion. and what he was calling for, was a complete transformation of the society into an Islamic, uh I- into is- Islamic society, and um... and uh a uh destruction of this compromised corrupt system of Hausa government governance. what he had going for him, was this, sort of economic crisis this kind of steady state of depression, in the area. and, the effects of the ruler Hausa rulers, uh tax systems specifically or labor and tax and labor systems, where in in spite of, depression, these Hausa city state rulers could keep up their way of life their control, through um, uh heavily taxing, the income and labor of the people not only in the towns and the surrounding areas. and this was a max_ so that underneath or alongside this call to orthodox Islam was this, economic interest this kind of uh social interest in uh and tax revolt. um, and what, the other, Uth- so Uthman had, uh, going for him, uh a response to an economic, crisis, um, uh negative feelings about the, the rulership, taxes, labor and he also, was able to use the Fulani, his connection to Fulani, to bring um, to his side into his movement, the Fulani who lived in these city states. and, the, Hausa, speaking people who lived in the countryside so it became kind of a, combination, movement, he had the Hausa, in the countryside who didn't like the taxation of the city, their city masters he had the Fulani, who saw, the this Islamic movement as something like a Fulani movement, uh, that would could overcome Hausa domination, uh, he had the religious this religious debate, where he, claimed the high ground the orthodox ground, and uh, within a, few years he had an_ you know in, in northwest part of this northern Nigeria region, he had, um, the Hausa leaders worrying about, um a kind of steady state of revolt. and um, they started to act against the movement, after they found that Uthman would not compromise they tried to negotiate compromises and he said there's no compromise you can't compromise, these kind of Islamic principles we need uh uh an Is- uh orthodox Islamic society, that's what we're calling for, and uh there is no compromise no accommodation is possible. uh and, so uh in the course of that, he moved into this, role of the classic uh uh, pro- uh, story of the prophet, Mohammed he declared, went into exile declared a jihad, which_ a holy war, against, these city states and one by one, um they fell or he conquered every single one of them, in northern Nigeria. uh and, uh the fact that, these city states had alre- were already, at odds with each other in tension one from another meant that, he could pick them off he and his movement could pick them off one at a time. and uh, he established in each city state, an emirate, an e- uh each, each city state was led by an emir, under, what was the caliphate of and he had_ there were fourteen, emirs... which correspond to pretty much the fourteen districts of northern Nigeria that the British established, uh in the early twentieth century when they established, a protectorate over, um, northern Nigeria. and, then Uthman said i have done my work it's taken twenty seven years, i've done this i've established, a caliphate a holy Islamic, state in th- in this gr- in this region, um we have, converted, the people of this region, i mean substantially he was correct, that from there being a very small percentage of people who were actually, practicing Islam, it came to be a very large percentage of the population was after this twenty-seven year period. um, he had in a way created, a revolution, uh a massive change in law, social life and so forth. but he then retired, and left everything in the control of the fourteen emirs, and of his son, who went on to, allow, the emirs to each develop their own administration, and each of them, in order to develop the resources of their own, emirate or their own city state, started to adopt, the original Hausa titles, to incorporate some of the old Hausa leadership into their governments, um to recognize Hausa law, as, as operative in their emirates, and to slowly steadily yield the, uh perfect ideal Islamic state in in their own areas and i, think what the story you know it's an old story of, very hard to sustain a revolution the ideals of a revolution. um, it's it's possible to win a victory, but sustaining it over a long period of time, creating a, uh permanent structure, is uh, is really uh, testing and, you know one sees this in, in Iran Iran, you know in our lifetimes has had a very important Islamic revolution, and it is having difficulty now, sustaining it (it has) all kinds of, other issues that, the Is- Islamic, theory Islamic law, in its orthodox form cannot work out um, are are being exercised be people who sought, um, to exercise oth- other interests, in other ways, and uh, the momentum of the revolution the original Islamic revolution, just can't be, sustained forever. um, now to bring you up to date in northern Nigeria, um, there is a new ferment, it's i would say it's it's a perhaps ten years old, and it is to, to um inst- institute more fully Islamic law, into the life of northern Nigeria into the, legal social and political framework of northern Nigeria. and one state after another uh of these, uh fourteen or so states now in in northern, Nigeria is is introducing, Islamic law, um as the, the guiding law of the state and, there are, uh, tremendous conflicts going on about the, establishment of Islam, uh in uh societies that are, in the in the Nigerian, nation. and uh the government, through three governments has not known how to deal with this, this movement. um and so that this, at the end of the nineteenth century, uh what we have is, that a substantial, um transformation of this arena, of the western Sudan into an Islamic society, that is, not just uh uh represented by elites in the cities, but uh uh throughout the population where, a greater part of the population in any area of the western Su- Sudan, is identifies themselves with Islam, Islamic and practices Islam, and is open an- and susceptible, to um, reform, Islam new Islamic reforms, new Islamic fundamentalism and and to uh, to you know building a, uh, a sys- building a nation within a nation Islamic nation within, a more di- diverse nation like Nigeria or Cote d'Ivore. and r- you know right now in the Ivory Coast this is a, a a major issue there there're, um, an Islamic leader who uh was disbarred from running for, for president and now seems like you know some negotiation is taking place how to bring him back into the government. his name is Wattara uh, on Thursday, i wanna shift to the, um this coastal region and talk about the, thi- this these transformations taking place in that region. yeah. 
S7: i just wanted to make sure did you say it was wrong, to look at it as being, the- these revolutions the unmaking of traditional authorities, and the establishment of Islamic... the spread of Islam is it wrong to look at it as the elites spreading it to the masses, or is that the way?
S1: no it's it's wrong to look at it as the elites, spreading it to the masses that was a, a misspoke, on my part. it's that these we- tended to be mass movements, with new kinds of leadership, that hadn't been seen, in these parts of West Africa before. leaders who were, uh, came out of these brotherhoods, and, were anti... antagonistic (and) wanted to overthrow, the si- the, the more privileged, Islamic scholar scholars and leaders clerics and judges, that operated in each of these towns and (that) they felt, each of these city states that they felt, saw as corrupted. <P :04> so, you know they could, because it came from outside the cit- city states they could attack the system, of the ci- the city state model of, you know here you have a, heterogeneous population under the head of a, of a ruling family, that, is connected to a ruling family over here a ruling family over there that we saw like in (the) Sunjata, case, this probably, goes back, to that model that comes from the archeologists (Mackintosha) of of the (Mackinstoshes) that you've, heard about or read about in Reader and had the article. where there were these heterogeneous towns, that each seemed to have their own governance system their own local economies but connected, (to) network in that system... which seems to have lasted at least three thousand years, seemed to be overthr- what i'm saying is (seemed) to be overthrown by these mass movements. Islamic movements. in these revolutions. but there was also a tendency for the revolutions to run out of gas, and to re-accommodate, this this traditional leadership. and uh and and, and bring them back, into the system in a way it's a revolution, but there's an old long established system, that won't go away and you could look, at the, political topography of this, and it maintains itself through ancient city states, the conquests, of Uthman dan Fodio, the British, uh incorporation of northern Nigeria as a protectorate, through the various governments, of Nigeria attempting to, create a federal system through the establishment of these estates, you know the the political topography, of this remains pretty stable, in spite of the, that that we had imperialism, working backwards, new governments new ideas of federalism, imperialism, and an Islamic revolution. yeah?
S9: on the same note you may have said this but um, the leaders like Uth- Uthambo is that his name?
S1: Uthman dan Fodio, (i put his name here) 
S9: Uthman dan Fodio is like, these were local people, the- they weren't, uh foreigners coming to this region right? 
S1: well, Uthman dan Fodio was local, to this region up here, but he wasn't local to you know were the conquests ended up.
S9: but it but it wasn't so i guess my_ it was not it wasn't trans-Saharan? 
S1: no. 
S9: okay. 
S1: no all all of them could could you know like in Buganda, all of them could con- claim to be local... you know because if you were a Fulani you could claim that, you could be anywhere local you had local connections wherever you were. that you could always claim to be local, but you could also be, sort of dispatched as some, kind of foreign element you know these Fula, they just herd c- animals you know they don't know anything about, governing cities. uh they're not from here they're not from this town they come, from somewhere else so i mean there, there there're competing, arguments political arguments about who these, people were and what the values were what the, worth was. <P :05> okay, i've said enough and probably
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