



SU-F: kay
R1: alright 
S1: get that on tape, no have you_ oh you have started it okay. [R1: yeah, ] okay um everybody get the, handouts, that are coming? yes? (good,) okay. today, we are starting um the section on pornography we're also going to be continuing our discussion today. hopefully we'll be able to get through the readings today, but if we don't we'll add these to the two that are left over for um, Wednesday. the ones on Wednesday as you will see um, they seem to have more u- of an um, an emphasis on agency remember the structure-agency thing that we've been talking about all semester, um and, and more of an emphasis on um, i was gonna use the term playful pornography that sounds a little weird, but as you'll see if_ especially some of you who have read them already um it's just a very different view of pornography and what is porno- uh pornographic, um etcetera and also um it brings up the issue of, a feminist, um kind of viewpoint on pornography that's very different, from Catherine MacKinnon's, feminist viewpoint on pornography. so we'll get to, the remaining two articles on um, Wednesday, but today we'll be focusing, a l- we'll be talking a lot about Catherine MacKinnon now we've read some of her already in this class as you know she's very very p- um polemical very argumentative very um, you know exactly where she stands when you read Catherine MacKinnon she's not timid at all i'm sure you guys noticed that in reading the one for today. um but we'll also be looking at Lynne Segal kind of in contrast to MacKinnon. um and in fact the response paper number fourteen due in class next Wednesday since we're taking two days for pornography i gave you guys an extra two days for this one, and um th- let's read through the response paper question just so you can be thinking about this during today's discussion. <READING> imagine a conversation between Catherine MacKinnon Lynne Segal and one other author for today your choice of Collins Hooks and Dines, on the subject of pornography what might they say to each other? for example how does each define pornography. what is the view of each about the harm or lack thereof caused by by pornography. in answering these questions be sure to show explicitly that you understand the author's main arguments. </READING> and by the way of course you're not limited just to saying how they define pornography and whether or not it's harmful, you can bring in anything else that you want to with regard to how MacKinnon and Segal and this one other person that you choose, would talk to each other. um, cuz MacKinnon and Segal in particular definitely have points of view that are in a lot of ways opposed to each other. so it would actually be fun to see or to hear a real debate between the two. but, but reading your papers i guess will be the next best thing. um unfortunately i didn't get through all the grading, sorry you know i've been trying to get through it all by Monday so i will give, um the remaining papers back on um Wednesday, these are some that people didn't pick up, um and or ones that, um pe- some of them are things that were sent as attachments and i, finally was able to, print them out so um, so there aren't a whole lot left here. but again they're in alphabetical order so just take your own, as they go around. um but most of 'em you will get them back on Wednesday. okay so pornography reading and viewing bodies the case of pornography in today's topic includes the case of sex workers, in other words the women, um and men but uh but a lot of times we'll be focusing on the women since that's certainly what the authors focus on. um the women who actually do pornography who act in pornographic films for example, um the question of agency for them again MacKinnon would certainly have a point of view on them as would some of the other authors, so we'll talk about that as well. kay first of all what is pornography and by extension what is erotica and what is obscene? so what we're going to do, to start, is just try to get some, <WRITING ON BOARD NEXT :13 OF UTTERANCE> some definition, of these terms. pornography, erotica... obscene. so... so what is what? somebody give me a definition of one of these. yes. 
S2: well th- it's in in a <READING> feminist view is a form of forced sex, a practice of sexual politics. </READING> 
S1: okay you're obviously reading MacKinnon? 
S2: yes [S1: yes ] an institution of gender inequality. 
S1: okay pornography is, say that again please? 
S2: um <READING> in the feminist view is a form of forced sex, a practice of sexual politics, an institution of gender inequality </READING> [S1: okay ] this is page one ninety-seven, um i mean four eighty-four the second, thing. 
S1: forced sex sexual politics, 
S2: yes and an institution of gender inequality. 
<INSTRUCTOR WRITES ON BOARD THROUGHOUT DISCUSSION> 
S1: (xx) okay. okay, now that certainly tells us what MacKinnon or partially tells us what MacKinnon, thinks about pornography, but, sh- she doesn't really define it there. (the other one is) gender inequality. so Stephanie how would you define it? do you have your own definition? 
S3: can you come back to me? can you come back to me? 
S1: <LAUGH> sure. anybody else. how would you define pornography? what is pornography? and what page was that from? 
S2: that was on page uh four eighty-four but, one ninety-seven, [S1: the article page. ] on her, yeah one ninety-seven. 
S1: thanks. okay, pornography what is pornography? yes. 
S4: um maybe like, sexual acts, um in an erotic manner i don't, i dunno. 
<BACKGROUND NOISE NEXT 3:03> 
S1: okay, in an, <LAUGH> i was just thinking as you said that hm are there some sexual acts that aren't erotic? <SS LAUGH> um, erotic, manner. okay <P :04> yes. 
S5: it's like sex that's, made to be viewed. 
S1: sex that's made to be viewed? 
S5: viewed like to be watched by somebody else. 
S1: ah, okay. okay, um... what about_ do any of you guys ever watch Mad About You? 
SS: yeah 
S1: do you know what i'm getting at, by asking you that question right after, i put that definition up? yeah Eve. 
S6: well i m- i think, Rachel meant like by the pub- the public not like, i mean are you talking about (xx?) 
S1: okay <LAUGH> okay made to be viewed yeah for the public. beca- the reason i asked that question of course is if you guys watch Mad About You there was an episode in which they videotaped themselves, um, having sex to be viewed, well i'll just say by the public, yeah. okay. any other definitions? yes, Jim. 
S7: um, it's commercialized it's bought and sold. 
S1: okay commercialized sex. yeah we're competing with um, some construction going on obviously. okay. what else? is Playboy pornography? 
S8: yeah. 
S1: yes? okay by what definition, Mustafa did you say, yes? 
S8: uh by_ cuz there's naked women, [S1: okay ] in erotic poses. <SS LAUGH>
S1: okay um Playboy, <WRITING ON BOARD DURING NEXT :10 OF UTTERANCE> is porn, naked women in erotic poses. <P :06> does anybody think that Playboy is maybe not pornography? 
S3: it's it's not [S2: is it erotica? ] like more soft pornish? 
S1: okay soft pornish? 
S3: like there's more hard-core porn like, isn't_ i don't, [S8: yeah ] it's not Maxim but it's something like that Hustler. [S1: w- okay ] Hustler now isn't that hard-core porn? 
S1: okay um, Hustler, d- i- i haven't seen Hustler in a few years [S3: i have ] but i remember the last t- <SS LAUGH> [S3: well yesterday when i was- ] i'm not that seri- <LAUGH> <SS LAUGH> yesterday when you were at the grocery store. um, now, no Hustler was much more graphic and much more um the poses of women were very different, the social class of the women portrayed looked very differe- in other words you could tell, their social class was lower or was supposed to appear lower, than the women posed in Playboy so y- 
S5: a- are they less um, do they have less um, like fake breasts and stuff, do you know [S1: in Playboy? ] like than than in Playboy does Playboy have more have the [S1: (boy) ] because it, advertised [S1: (xx) ] more like the lifestyle versus like the actual explicit acts of, [S1: right ] you know submissiveness and, yadda yadda. 
S1: you know that i don't know <LAUGH> um, [S5: i dunno. i've, never looked at it. ] right, no th- <SS LAUGH> [S3: we actually bought one ] no i [SU-F: mhm ] assume, some women in Playboy probably have had, <END BACKGROUND NOISE> artificial, whatever um i- as much as, women in Hustler or whatever, um i don't know if there have been any studies on that, actually. but you can check yes Rachel. 
S9: i personally like don't buy the whole, like soft porn [S1: mhm ] less porn thing like, [S1: okay ] um part of it like from my perspective is like s- it's like, when, it's like sexuality is being bought almost [S1: mhm ] like when that like you're just, if somebody's just as much exposing, i mean it's definitely like in a different manner from what i've like, from what i know of <CELL PHONE RINGS S8> the controversy about Hustler, and stuff like that it that it th- like, they show a lot more, [S8: sorry ] i guess it's like the nude versus naked thing i don't really know but, [S1: okay ] i don't_ i still think that, it's pornography regardless. 
S1: okay so pl- um so you wouldn't n- necessarily draw a line then, between Playboy 
S9: well i mean i think though that there's definitely a difference between the types of pornography but i don't think it makes it any less, like ob- objectifying towards anybody (xx.) 
S1: okay, okay um, <WRITING ON BOARD> let me just add this here then. i'll just write equally objectifying and then put a question mark there. you can be thinking number one of course what your own view is on this but also what would like what would MacKinnon think of that would she make a big distinction, between Hustler and Playboy? um, or Segal, um etcetera. well let's go into erotica. what's erotica then? what is erotica...? anybody? yeah? Leslie. 
S10: i i would guess that it would be like sort of the insinuation, [S1: okay ] of, like something sexual, [S1: okay ] and not necessarily like graphic, i don't know. [S1: uhuh okay ] this is my, this is my interpretation of [S1: uhuh ] (whenever) i hear that word, that it's like, more of like, not as graphic [S1: okay ] and just kind of like suggesting. 
S1: ah okay so a suggestive rather than blatant? 
S10: yeah maybe. but i don't know if that's correct but that's how i, hear it. 
S1: well i think there're lots of different definitions, of it um, let's see rather than, graphic, or than obvious... um, but we can come back to this and actually this is kind of alluded to in one of the readings for um Wednesday, um where when you read, um, some harlequin novels for example which one of the articles for Wednesday is about. they um, talk about how, the sexuality is is just insinuated or suggested, in a lotta the books Eve. 
S6: well it's funny that she said insinuation cuz i was gonna say that like Playboy that it's insinuation of sex cuz it's like naked women that like make you think of, you know having sex or whatever, and if you consider that porn then like part of porn could just be insinuating like, sexual things, [S1: mhm ] but i think erotica maybe focuses more on consenting where pornography maybe focuses on dominating 
S1: ah okay. okay. con- okay um, so it's more consensual then or y- um, 
S6: i mean i don't_ i just think that [S1: hmm ] i don't like know <LAUGH>
S1: um let's see. as opposed, porn's being dominating, no i think that's an interesting distinction, actually. um, we can come back to that yes. 
S3: um, [S1: Stephanie ] i'm not sure if this is um, dead on but, um a romance novel or a love story that's appealing more to emotion. 
S1: okay. okay so again the_ like not being as graphic, okay Stephanie did you? 
S3: oh no i'm just 
S1: okay you're [S3: sorry <LAUGH> ] just, <LAUGH> okay. [S3: um ] um yeah Debbie (xx) (section) 
S11: i actually was thinking, the opposite of what a lotta people're saying for erotica when when i, think of the term erotica like, i think of something that's like, so like, different and like, it's like, porn in a more like, i dunno this is just my interpretation [S1: mhm ] of like i i to use the word like kinky manner, in like (you know more) like, 
S1: oh interesting um, porn that's more kinky than usual? 
S11: yeah <SS LAUGH> [S1: okay ] like more different more_ when i think like erotic it's like, it's like different and like more um crazy, [S1: okay ] more, <BACKGROUND NOISE NEXT 1:00> like [SU-F: (more tempter) ] i don't know like, i'm for 
S1: oh so it's even more ad- advanced i don't know if that's the right word, than, than porn 
S3: i keep thinking about Madonna and Erotica 
S11: yeah like when right like Madonna Erotica like different <SS LAUGH> like [S1: okay ] not more like, like with porn it's like, it could be just like standard sex but like when i think of something that's like erotica it's like very, [S1: hm ] different extravagant kind of like um, being more creative, with sex. 
S1: uhuh okay, more kinky i'll, add creative 
S11: creative <LAUGH>
S1: here then. <WRITING ON BOARD> (xx) (there) okay. okay (Sally) 
SU-F: i have like a totally different idea 
S1: um, yeah somebody else was, next good oh Mustafa yeah (xx)
S8: uh, i guess when i think of that, i think something that's more artistic, [S1: okay ] something that you'd see at like i dunno m- more at like an art show, [S1: uhuh <LAUGH> okay ] i don't know, rather than pornography itself as far as it's much more graphic and, i don't know it could be like, like you know like amateur porn and [S1: mhm ] stuff like that it's just like really it's just sleazy but erotica's more, [S1: mhm ] artistic and, 
S11: that's where i am 
S1: yes okay yeah um, yeah sleazy like porn without the sleaze? maybe? [S12: um ] okay Janet? 
S12: i always thought, erotica was more geared toward women, [SU-M: yeah ] [S1: mhm ] whereas the majority of pornography is geared towards heterosexual men, but erotica is, wasn't quite so much (of that) [S1: mkay... ] or it included more (xx) 
S1: mhm. like from a woman's point of view, or something? okay 
S12: and stuff like harlequin and like Madonna and those kinda (things.) [S1: okay ] what makes women more interested.
S1: okay Whitney you had your, <BACKGROUND NOISE NEXT :10> hand up
S13: um, yeah i agree with, is it Debbie? 
S11: Debbie 
S13: okay. that's exactly what i thought of erotica more like whips and chains and like, [S1: ahh ] you know like real, i [S1: okay ] just i remember seeing watching some show and people would actually like cut each other, [S1: mhm ] and like the blood was supposedly like, erotic or something i mean i was [S1: okay ] disgusted. [S1: mhm <SS LAUGH> okay. ] that's what they_ that's always what i think about 
S1: oh but you would think of that as being erotica rather than pornography. 
S13: yeah definitely. 
S1: yeah okay. okay there's somebody over here yes. 
S14: yeah i agree with, Debbie and Mustafa that it's, it may be more kinky but just [S1: huh ] involving more elements in one way you know [S1: okay ] whereas pornography's maybe just focused on like, the sexual act like intercourse [S1: mhm ] and stuff and then there's_ can be many other ways to see things sexually, 
S1: mhm, okay. 
S14: and i also do think it's more about women. 
S1: okay. although it's interesting because some of the things that you're describing as maybe being erotica, it's hard to understand how they would appeal, to specifically to women like the the bloodletting. 
S14: yeah 
S1: yeah so, maybe that's a little, tenuous yeah? 
S15: i was just gonna say i think that the, the mainstream, approach is not only, is not only, erotica usually gendered as, female and pornography [S1: mhm ] is gendered as male but like i feel like, there's also an assumed class difference? (xx) 
S1: mhm yeah that's, yeah that's good. um, meaning what? say a little bit more (xx) 
S15: meaning meaning something like, it's okay that we're getting off because it is artistic, [S1: mhm ] i mean it is, you know [S1: yeah ] it is um, [S1: um, ] it's art rather than you know like i think that, that art distinction sometimes is, placed on top of it as um, a way to um, 
S1: legitimize it? 
S15: legitimize it. 
S1: mhm yeah. yes Rachel. 
S9: um going along with the like geared towards men or which one is for which, it_ i just think the audience overall is broader for erotica, [S1: mhm ] um like, with pornography, there's kind of the whole concept behind it that like, a heterosexual man can fit himself into it but there's no room for anybody else type of thing [S1: huh okay ] whereas like um, with erotica, it's, geared towards like, everybody who's involved, and like there's room for like, like there's the whole argument that one of the reasons that women don't like to watch pornography as much or mainstream pornography [S1: mhm ] is because, like when watching it you can't like imagine yourself in the situation whereas men it's like geared, for them [S1: mhm ] to be able to do that, [S1: yes ] and i think erotica has like a wider audience in that way. 
S1: okay. okay um Kim? 
S16: i was just gonna say, i think erotica is generally like more accepted like, um, you can see erotica much more in like the mainstream media than you would, i mean, [S1: okay ] pornography is kind of... i don't know i think a lot of people have, a hu- like, a lot of people don't like pornography but when it comes to erotica there's kinda like, that fine line between like, like something that's like sexual and such and artistic [S1: mhm ] and like erotica like it kinda seems to flow together. 
S1: mhm, hm yeah um Leah and then Debbie again. 
S17: i just have a question for people who see erotica as being considered more mainstream and accepted, like what's an example of erotica then? like cuz i_ like when i think of pornography, you know Playboy Hustler [S1: mhm ] things like that, i think we all um, i'm generalizing but um, you know associate those but then what is erotica then are there like, is it, i mean i just don't know i mean i'm just asking for anyone. 
S1: mhm mhm yeah Debbie did you wanna, respond to that? 
<BACKGROUND NOISE NEXT :40> 
S11: yeah i, i'm actually, um i'm agreeing with Leah in the sense like, i think of almost pornography as something that is kind of accepted by society in the sense that we do sell magazines that like they're readily like available [S1: mhm ] at like a, newsstand whereas like, when i think of erotica i'm thinking of this like crea- like people've been saying this creative art like, [S1: mhm ] more like, i don't think that's (xx) i think that is definitely like a different thing like when i think erotica i'm thinking like of things like, transvestites that are like, [S1: huh ] i mean not transvestites just people like people that dress up in like these crazy outfits and like, you know express themselves very sexually and it's, [S1: mhm ] so different than, just normal, like porn that you see in magazines that you see like on the (xx) channel 
S1: (did) (xx) use the word normal. 
S11: yeah [S1: yeah ] i don't know if it's normal but like [S1: okay <LAUGH> ] but i'm saying like 
S1: the usual, yes mhm 
S11: the usual porn that you see on like T-V or something like something that you would like, just be flipping through on the channels [S1: mhm ] where it's like when i think of erotica i'm seeing like something that's more, not 
S1: more deviant? 
S11: more more deviant more creative more, more, out of the ordinary, [S1: okay ] whereas like, pornography like it's so like readily available on the internet [S1: mhm mhm ] and like on the_ and just erotica's something more like people've been saying it's more creative, expression of s- of you know sex maybe. [S1: mhm ] so,
S1: okay. um just a couple more and then actually we need to go on to what's obscene but yes let's go ahead (xx) 
S12: um i think that, definitely pornography's more in the, fore_ like in the forefront so it doesn't mean it's more accepted or less accepted, but because it's on the forefront like it gives people the opportunity to accept it or not accept it. [S1: mhm ] and erotica is something like, that's not as known about so then, i don't really know how it would be as accepted as pornography <BACKGROUND DRILLING> if it were that, [S1: mhm ] mainstream. 
S1: okay Corinne? 
S4: i was just gonna_ to answer both of your questions at least from, what i've read on it i've always thought of pornography as kind of like, like i mean pornography like Hustler and Playboy like those kinds of things and erotica like, i don't know at least from my understanding would be more something like you'd see in like Maxim or like, [S1: mhm ] even Cosmo like, women in sexual positions but it's not necessarily like, objec- well [S1: hm ] i mean i guess it is to a point but it's not, so much like degrading or such but it's more like, i don't know like [S1: hm ] i read something like pornography is really for the man's eye and erotica's for the woman's eye [S1: mhm mhm ] like you don't, like most pornography women are like looking at the audience and they're like, being objectified in erotica they're, they're almost seen as like stronger they're looking away it's not so, i don't know that's just my understanding of it so that's why i would say
S1: okay Linda i think you were next and then Rachel, and then we stop. 
S2: i think like one big distinction between um, erotica and pornography and this could probably explain why more like, males are, the audience of one versus the other and i think that like, erotica's focused a lot, on the arousal and like [S1: mhm ] turning on and like in different ways and creative manners like everybody was talking about, [S1: mhm ] i think pornography's more focused on like, getting off and the orgasm you know what i mean like, [S1: mhm mhm ] the, instant gratification of it i guess [S1: mhm mhm ] like it's_ and i think like erotica more is like a, just like creative like different slow, like take your time, [S1: mhm mhm ] type of ways of like, arousing first and i think that's like has a lot to do with why like women are more appealing, [S1: mhm ] more appealed toward 
S1: toward this. 
S2: yeah 
S1: mhm okay. um Rachel. 
S5: to go along with that i think that erotica's more like pleasure-seeking and pornography's more like an objectification, [S1: okay ] of the women. so, it's more_ erotica's more focused on, pleasure where pornography they're just kind of, like kinda exploiting women, in a sense. 
S1: okay so when you say focused on pleasure that includes the woman's? [S5: yes ] i see okay... okay and then Mustafa i think, (you had your hand) 
S8: i i just had a question, cuz li- now i'm like getting a little confused, between the two [S1: yeah ] like uh, t- has anyone seen that sex book by Madonna? 
SU-F: yeah 
S1: i've heard of it but i haven't seen it. 
S8: would you consider that erotica or pornography? 
SS: erotica 
S8: for
SU-F: pornography 
S8: yeah that's what i would consider that too (xx) 
SU-F: (xx) 
S1: okay s- say a little bit about what this bo- i mean i've seen it um but i haven't_ okay. 
<BACKGROUND NOISE NEXT 3:10> 
S8: well i i browsed through it once it was my friend's, and <SS LAUGH> 
S1: it was their idea i'm sure. <SS LAUGH>
S8: but but it objectified women in the same way that some pornos do like [S1: uhuh ] it was just, it was like like she said it was more artistic, a- and like very uh, like more uh detailed and kinky and, [S1: mhm ] but in the same way like in the same way that i think that pornography degrades women, [S1: mhm ] uh like this book kinda did the same exact thing. [S1: okay even though even though ] or or or you can use it the other way around and be like oh it empowered women because it showed like, it also showed women like dominating men, [S1: uhuh ] like reversed but there's pornography that does that too [S1: mhm ] so. 
S1: yeah Jim you're (next) 
S18: i think that um, pornography is focused on pleasure too i [S1: mhm ] don't, um it may be more one-sided but, the_ i mean the ultimate goal is to, <LAUGH> induce pleasure in someone who's, looking at it [S1: mhm ] the same as erotica so, 
S1: okay so you can't really make that distinction, between the two? 
S18: i i don't think you can make a distinction no. 
S1: okay Leslie? 
S10: i, flipped through the book and i think th- the difference probably is that, in a lot of pornography there's like, really close-up shots of like, genitalia. [S1: right. ] and in that book it was more about like a scene. it wasn't like, you see Madonna's you know parts it was like she's doing something [S1: mhm ] or somebody's doing something [S1: mhm ] you know that type of thing it's less about, really close-up pieces, [S1: mhm ] and how they're, you know sexualized. 
S1: mhm yes and by the way that's one definition of hard-core pornography is when they have like every little explicit detail and it's very very close up. um, but yeah that well, we'll come back to that too, that's just one more definition Molly do you wanna, (xx) 
S14: i was just gonna say i don't know like, for some of us i don't i don't, for me i don't really think there's a difference. [S1: mhm ] so i was just gonna, (pull it outta here) cuz like, i don't really think there is a difference between erotica and (xx) 
S1: okay, okay well let's_ yeah Eve. 
S6: just to respond to that <SS LAUGH> sorry [S1: yes ] but i'm like what i'm hearing from the class it's almost like erotica's like, an excuse to make pornography okay [S1: mhm ] like, [S1: yeah ] you know like, well it's artsy so [S1: right ] it's not as bad as pornography [S1: mhm ] or it's creative so like it's okay you know, [S1: mhm mhm ] i mean, personally i think pornography maybe focuses more on power, where erotica focuses more on like two people, irregardless like, [S1: hm ] just what i'm hearing like in discussion like [S1: mhm ] that's kind of seems to be like the, (xx) 
S1: yes which actually brings in the class distinction that somebody, Molly, maybe brought up earlier yes um, yeah Rachel and then, (xx) 
S5: i think it's kind of like erotica is a type of pornography [S18: yeah ] [S1: okay ] um because, it's almost like it seems maybe like women are kind of trained to like not like pornography but if you create something that's geared towards them and like name it differently. [S1: mhm mhm ] and also i was gonna say literature for some reason [S1: mhm, yes. ] i always think of erotica. 
S1: mhm, yes. um yes.
S15: or, or you could say, or you could_ but i mean at the same time you could say pornography's a type of erotica. [S1: okay ] i mean it's universal. 
S1: yeah which is [S9: i don't i don't, ] the bigger one i don't know. 
S9: well, i don't know i think like that there're, things about erotica like fall under the umbrella of pornography but i don't know if goes vice versa. whatever, same thing. 
S1: okay. well the point of_ anybody else, actually, with their, definitions? okay well the point of one o- well one of the points of my asking you guys this question is, number one i don't i- a couple of you said near the end i'm getting confused or i'm not sure what the definition really is. um i think there're lots of different definitions of both of these as Catherine MacKinnon pointed out in that article, um notice how much trouble like legislators have had in trying to define what pornography is and therefore maybe, legislate against like the obscene parts of it without, um curtailing free speech etcetera but yeah Molly do you wanna, 
S15: i was actually just gonna say that i i heard on N-P-R this morning that, there's new federal legis- legislation for prisoners they can no longer have pornography, any um se- um, sexual explicit um acts of, well of sex, [S1: mhm ] <SS LAUGH> but um, like pictures of it a_ anymore, anymore if there're like two people even if it's insinuated like soft-core or hard-core they still can have, <BACKGROUND NOISE NEXT 1:00> naked, photographs, of the opposite sex, [S1: okay ] for the inmates, (right) so i thought that was very interesting, [S1: oh that yeah. ] they're not allowed to have like, anything, yeah new legislation. <S8 LAUGH> but they're not allowed to have anything like that explicitly, [S1: mhm ] shows sex. or would even insinuate sex. 
S1: okay even between, like two women, i assume that would still be banned. uhuh [S15: yeah ] interesting. i hadn't heard that. um, okay well let's get back a little bit to the definition it seemed like actually several of you, had this idea of erotica of it being um, a little more kinky, i- and i think_ i mean enough of you had that idea that that must be kind of a common definition of erotica. to be honest that that wasn't um my first thought of erotica. i think somebody said and i i don't know who i'm quoting, but somebody basically said the definition between pornography and erotica is like what i like personally is erotica but what that you know weird person over there likes is pornography. which again brings in like the class distinction i think a lot of people, um reading particular um, y- uh books uh yeah particular books or seeing certain artsy films that are very explicit, um, can say oh no no no that's not pornography that's erotica because it does seem a little bit more legitimate or something. so but where the the kinky part of it, came in i'm not sure but several of you had that idea so that must be like in common usage. um erotica has also s- often seemed to be more focused on women and more for women, and more um, and to have more of a concentration on women's pleasure, as opposed to pornography being, you know totally focused on men etcetera. but how you draw the line between pornography and erotica, i don't know. and i i mean i don't think any of us knows um certainly the law doesn't know, um, either. so what else, um... yeah i really like the class distinction. is there anything racialized here though? think about that for a minute. is there anything racialized in the definition of what we think of as pornography and what we think of as erotica? yes. 
S19: um i remember we discussed in our previous class about how pornography was seen sometimes as, um a way of treating_ i know this is like a refer back to like slavery, [S1: mhm ] and how_ i'm sorry how, um, i- like putting women, like on a lower level like treating 'em_ like whips and chains is kind of like, bringing them back to when, um slaves were used as like objects, [S1: mhm ] so it's like subject-object type of thing again, [S1: mhm ] also like, comparing people to animals, [S1: mhm ] was used as pornography 
S1: mhm. um yeah those kinds of of things in, like a magazine or whatever it would be hard to look at those and s- see those as erotica although maybe, maybe some people would yeah Rachel. 
S5: i don't know if there's like, a difference between the two of them that's racialized but i, know that there's different types in pornography that are definitely racialized that probably, people would have a harder time like viewing as erotica like i know that, [S1: mhm ] um, there's a huge argument that black women women [S1: mhm ] are represented like much differently and much, more objec- i mean i don't know it's so hard to say more objectified [S1: mhm ] but, um in certain types of pornography so i [S1: mhm ] think that, that's definitely like a racial issue 
S1: yes i think either Collins or Hooks or probably both of them actually make that point that a lot of times um, African American women for example are are um, are portrayed very differently, than white women it's not that white women are not, objectified in pornography but, but maybe there are degrees of objectification um, yes Ann. 
S14: i think i think a lot of pornography is really, pretty racist because if you look through like, um we were talking about Maxim we were talking about Cosmo you know they're always in the back they always have the, the like buy and sell, things and they have different types of pornographic videos and there's like, there's like for Asian girls and [S1: mhm mm ] like Asian girls are quiet and they're you know they're soft and they're pretty and they're, [S1: mhm ] small and, [S1: mhm ] and like and like um talking about black women like, they're i read one that was like you know black women are insatiable [S1: mhm ] they're, you know they're, sexual animals [S1: mhm ] like, you know and i think i th- and_ i'm not i mean i'm, i'm sure that white women are objectified too in some way but not obviously, as obvious but i think like, a lot of pornography is really apparently racist in that way because it's [S1: mhm ] like perpetuating, our like racial [S1: mhm ] stereotyping. 
S1: yeah absolutely and i think Collins made that point as well um in talking about, some of these images yeah Leah did you have your hand up or? 
S17: well i was just gonna say that i haven't really seen 'em but from what um i'm sorry 
S14: Ann 
S17: Ann was saying i think that um, (i think) it just per- just a second, it perpetuates the stereotypes it it ap- it appeals to the stereotypes that i think people, maybe are looking for you know how, people are attracted to a certain type of individual [S1: mhm ] and so people are you know, individuals are attracted to a certain stereotype or what they_ it's a fantasy [S1: mhm ] you know it's what, um, it's what the editors are trying to appeal to. 
S1: mhm. kay yeah Leslie. 
S10: um it_ i think it also not only, um exploits like racial, stereotypes but i think it it, does like, it it is very ageist also like if you, [S1: yeah ] if you look at some of the things they offer it's like barely legal, [S1: mhm mhm yes ] and like, ver- like the younger you can look or [S1: absolutely ] get is so- sometimes like the best. [S1: mhm ] or like they'll be_ ha- they'll have pigtails or something that [S1: right ] it's like, suggests that they're, you know really really young girls. [S1: mhm ] and i think, that's, important to point out. 
S1: oh absolutely yes and in fact it's bu- it's interesting though because when you said ageist i was also thinking ageist in the other direction, um because who is it Farrah Fawcett, who posed for Playboy like at the age of, what? what is she like fifty or something? i don't remember. um but that was like a really big deal, um because you don't see too many fifty-year-old women in Playboy. um, and you don't see too much pornography of like older women unless that's like part of the story line (right) it involves wh- whatever story line they have or to what extent they have one yeah. yeah so no that's a good point. good. okay well let's go on to obscenity what's obscenity? what was the famous quote about obscenity? 
SU-F: i know it when i see it 
SU-M: i know it when i see it 
S1: i know it when i see it. yeah. and we're not gonna spend too much time on obscenity right now cuz i wanna come back to this when we get to the readings but i know it when i see it. but but, the big point that i wanna make about obscenity as Catherine MacKinnon was certainly pointing out is that it's, again it's the same kind of problem that we were having in distinguishing between pornography and erotica, like which is which where do you draw the line what's obscene for you might not be obscene for me. uh remember one of the things they they rely on ar- is community standards or are community standards. um which of course vary which means maybe something, is obscene in, i dunno what's some small town, some small town in Michigan? (maybe) one of your [SU-F: Paw Paw ] home towns. where? 
SU-F: Paw Paw 
S1: Paw Paw? 
SU-F: Paw Paw Michigan <LAUGH>
S1: i've never heard of it but okay, <SS LAUGH> 
SU-F: it's a small town <SS LAUGH>
S1: versus for example_ yeah very small none of us have heard of it, um versus like San Francisco, probably they would have different community standards. um, so this is just one more thing that's just really hard to define. but let's go on to the readings cuz i just realized we have only forty minutes left and there's lotsa stuff in these readings. so, um, i wanna start with MacKinnon. what'd you guys think of this? what do you think of her writing? or her arguments? <P :05> is she wishy-washy? no. <LAUGH> definitely not. <SS LAUGH> she definitely has a point of view. can there be good pornography, according to MacKinnon? what do you think? 
SS: no 
S1: no hm'm. yeah. can i erase this? yeah? we're gonna run outta room. so MacKinnon, you know she's a law professor here. you guys might wanna go like go sit in on one of her classes i think it'd be really interesting. yes Allison. 
S19: well i was just gonna say she's arguing that there can't be any good porn because of how it's, only about like inequality and objectifying women and, um, you know, women at the submission of men and, (xx) 
S1: mhm, yeah um yeah porn is i think um Stephanie i think this was part of the quote um, pornt porn is about, women's inequality, so therefore, you know how can there be anything good about that? certainly that's part of her argument. what else? what else does she say in this? in this article? yes yeah Allison. <LAUGH> 
S19: <LAUGH> um, well she's also making a little bit of, t- she's also sort of alluding to how um, pornography might make men like lead to violence against women and rape and things like that. 
S1: okay um okay. um, how can it do that? what like what is her evidence for that, or how does she argue that point? 
S3: well, i don't know if this,
S1: Allison 
S19: no no go ahead no 
S1: did you wanna, answer it? no okay 
S3: well um well, i don't know if_ i i think this would help is like men treat women as whom they see women as being [S1: mhm ] like, [S1: yeah wh- where where are you? ] and that if_ i'm on page one ninety-seven again and it men power over women means that they, the way men see women defines who women can be it's like, [S1: mhm ] this submission is showing [S1: yes ] that even in, the sexual arena of the world you know the men have total power I-E it continues on to, every other aspect of women's lives. [S1: yes ] so, 
S1: yeah because sh- cuz one of the things, i- that MacKinnon is sometimes criticized about, i- as for example with Segal criticizing her, well what does Segal say about the connection between pornography and violence against women? what does Segal say about that? like how would she respond to this point of MacKinnon's? 
S3: wouldn't she say it's not even proven? 
S1: yeah she says it's not proven that the connection there is really tenuous we don't, we don't know if there's a real connection there. and in fact some of the evidence says there's not a connection there. um so, so one of the things that MacKinnon has sometimes been criticized for, is for making these kinds of connections without a whole lot of social scientific evidence, to back it up. but um, what Mac- how MacKinnon might answer that is, number one she's not only focusing on the direct connection between, okay men who read pornography are more likely to commit rape. she's making kind of a broader argument than that and it's actually the way, both Allison and Stephanie were talking about this men, treat women according to these pornographic images. so to MacKinnon it doesn't necessarily matter so much if the social scientific evidence, shows that you know men who read porn are are more likely to commit rape, um, because what she's saying is that it con- it contributes to, an atmosphere or a or an environment in which women are seen a_ in a particular way. and therefore treated, in that particular way. that's very damaging, according to MacKinnon yes. 
S9: also on page one ninety-eight um, [S1: what page? ] one ninety-eight, [S1: mhm ] like the first full paragraph that talks about like, por- pornography is not imagery it's the reality [S1: mhm ] that's kind of another argument for um, [S1: mhm ] i can't remember what i- the same thing that the other quote (xx) i've already lost my train of thought but, that um, (xx) 
S1: pornography is the reality? 
SU-F: the sexual (reality) 
S9: yeah like how gender in- gender inequality becomes socially real [S1: mhm, ] and that goes along with like, and then (up_) at the bottom of the page it says the same thing like <READING> the experience of the overwhelmingly male audiences </READING> [S1: mhm ] is <READING> therefore not fantasy or simulation or catharsis but sexual reality </READING>
S1: mhm... yes... um, which of th- yeah c- Corinne you wanna, (take this one out) 
S4: oh i was just gonna say that i think, MacKinnon's, well what she's pretty much saying is is that like, pornography is kinda showing like a power structure that [S1: mhm ] like, it's like, men with power women subordinate and submissive, [S1: uhuh ] and so like that in itself just perpetuates, um, perpetuates like that idea and that's why that could lead, men to, want to kind of like, exert their power over women thus being violent (xx) 
S1: mhm, mhm yes definitely that's part of her broader argument, about this stuff, definitely. yes Terry. 
S20: it also kinda says that women don't have agency, and they don't have um, that capability to make their own, decisions and, 
S1: okay. [S20: (xx) ] yeah actually i'm no i'm gla- i'm glad you brought that up. yes do women have agency according to MacKinnon? do they seem to very much? [S20: (no) ] Terry you would say no. yeah i think that's another problem, that a lot of critics of MacKinnon's have. is that the women that she's talking about don't seem to have much agency, but let's break this down a little bit. so let's talk about the women in pornography themselves for example those who pose, for Playboy or whatever. remember that old t- Marxian term that we've come back to, [SU-F: false consciousness ] a few times? 
S1: yeah false consciousness yeah. i think_ i can't remember if MacKinnon uses, um that term explicitly, um but it's definitely implied... that you know the women are, victims they're n- they are really have agency. and what about, um but she also talks about, where is this? lemme get my questions on this. there was one point in here, that i wanna bring up because it contrasts with Segal, very well. um... let's see... oh the last on on the questions, um that i gave you guys the last question on MacKennut MacKenna. or MacKinnon, sorry when she's talking about the problem of calling rape and pornography violence not sex. um and then she says <READING> to deny the sense of the situation so that when women are aroused by sexual violation experience it as se- as women's sexuality the feminist analysis is seen to be contradicted. </READING> so she's definitely recognizing that some women are aroused by pornographic images right? but, to her is that, how do i put this like a healthy kind of sexual arousal? 
SS: no 
S1: probably not probably not. um, but but what is it? or what does it represent? so women who are aroused by pornography, what does that say t- i mean it gi- so MacKinnon's not denying that that's the case sometimes, but what does she say about it...? women who are aroused by porn, mhm? 
S9: i guess that it proves the theory that like, we've been socialized into these positions 
S1: um yeah again that well you know maybe it's that's not unexpected, um in that in that given this society. given this society we shouldn't be surprised by this. but sh- but it's th- but she's not saying that it's a good thing <WRITING> given the society, it's not surprising. </WRITING> so let's_ actually you guys have brought up a lot of, important points in MacKinnon so let's contrast her... because Segal talks about a lotta the same things, but her point of view is very different about these things than is MacKinnon's. so, let's see what Segal has to say about pornography. or how much do you respond? remember this is a possible response paper. so how much do you respond, to some of what MacKinnon is arguing? <P :17> what does Segal think about pornography? <P :12> or who ca- 
S15: Se- Segal, [S1: mhm ] Segal think it thinks it's like a reality and, i think Segal's, um, opposition would be that, it is a way that men's dominance, um or like patriarchy gets perpetuated it can be it can be used in that medium, but so can many things, and like 
S1: okay um, okay so you think she'd agree, with MacKinnon? 
S15: no i mean i think i think she i think she would say that like, i think i think there's l- i think there's like a an agreement in the sense that pornography, ca- is used and can be used to perpetuate a power, um, inequity. but that too just, completely like the whole thing about, it's_ isn't it odd that, some radical feminist theorists have the same social agenda as, [S1: r- okay ] re- religious right. like [S1: mhm ] this whole idea of like, even [S1: mm ] even if it does, even if it can in some instances, perpetuate power inequality, [S1: okay ] um, is is the um approach to, to lobby against a complete minority or, 
S1: okay. um, yeah definitely she thinks feminists and right-wing activists, um working together, is a really weird combination. and not only a really weird combination a really bad combination. um... <WRITING> is her like, bad combo. </WRITING> okay. yes Allison. 
S19: well i was gonna say i felt like MacKinnon was totally stressing that, pornography was all about women's inequality, [S1: mhm ] and Segal was also making mention that, it can be bad for men too that, um, 
S1: in what ways? 
S19: uh that um, they feel more anxious because they can't measure up to, 
S1: uhuh yeah literally 
S19: you know (the men) portrayed, uh in, <SS LAUGH> no pun intended uh, [S1: no <LAUGH> ] uh, to the men in these videos and um, [S1: <WRITING> to the </WRITING> ] (xx) 
S1: yes uh one male friend of mine called them freaks of nature. 
S19: <LAUGH> right 
S1: <WRITING> to the freaks of nature. </WRITING> in other words these men with incredibly big penises. <SS LAUGH> that's what, we're talking about. (which is) freaks of nature in porn films. 
S19: (and they want to see) (xx) cuz their self-image is so, destroyed (and stuff.) 
S1: mhm. yeah yeah men can't measure m- l- literally measure up to these, m- men, um in porn films, and maybe that's damaging to men, as well. um in what other ways, was it damaging to men? do you remember? 
S19: oh 
S1: yeah. 
S19: well it was saying how um, there's a medicalization of like the male sexuality also like um, uh, i don't really know where to go with that but, (xx) 
S1: okay. well what'd you mean by that? 
S19: well i don't know what i gathered from (it) was maybe like um, with like Viagra [S1: okay ] people are using that now but like, you have to fix this problem but (xx.) 
S1: okay um, yes but actually_ but, kind of backing up a little bit from that so what is the problem then, that men um, that can be created by men watching porn, that's related to the fact that maybe they'll need Viagra in the future? i don't know if i asked that very well, but so what other problem, can porn have for men then? lemme ask it that way. yeah. 
S3: um, some men can think that they won't be able to satisfy [S1: right ] women like the men in porn films do or that 
S1: yeah the men in porn films, 
S3: or that men seem to be, ready to have sex all the time. [S1: yeah um, ] and, they may not be. 
S1: <WRITING> they're always ready, um, always, you know easily satisfy... the woman. etcetera. </WRITING> so this can make men feel what really, really what? 
SU-F: inadequate 
SS: (inadequate)
S1: yeah inadequate insecure. yes. okay. mhm? 
S3: also i gathered from it that they um, they were talking here about that like just like women's reactions, that they also feel guilt about secon- sex and they blame women for like, their source of their fantasies, 
S1: okay whe- where are you? 
S3: um i'm on page um, two thirty-two. and they seem like sexuality's imposed on them without, like projecting sexuality and, contrary onto women like, they feel_ that's what my gathering like they feel like they have to have these fantasies and they can't deviate from, 
S1: oh so that's another way that it can be harmful, to men okay. um, 
S3: like on the porn, right. if like they can't express like longing for men or whatever they're, [S1: okay ] like heterosexuality [S1: um ] is com- like, 
S1: so it kind of limits them in some ways? 
S3: compulsory, yeah com- like compulsory heterosexuality. 
S1: okay. bringing in another_ <S3 LAUGH> very good Stephanie [S3: thank you ] bring <WRITING> it can limit um, men. and men's fantasies, etcetera. </WRITING> okay... okay. yes, Rachel. 
S5: i guess this is in like, MacKinnon's comeback sort of for the um thing about, how it affects men badly, [S1: mhm ] or maybe even more extreme but for me it's like, i have a hard time dealing with that theory because, although, i see how it affects men's relationships or sexual relationships negatively, [S1: mhm ] it's almost like, for the most part i think that the men are under like a false consciousness in the sense that they don't see that it's affecting them badly because, [S1: mhm ] like they are still portrayed as like the dominant [S1: mhm ] or, you know the one who's like coming out on top of the whole thing, [S1: mhm ] s- and it_ i think that those situations where they are affected badly ultimately end up harming women. 
S1: okay. and say a little bit more about that. 
S5: like, so a man feels that he can't measure up or he can't satisfy a woman, so he's like upset with the woman when she isn't satisfied and it's [S1: mhm mhm ] her fault or, like there's something wrong with her sexually and i think that perpetuates violence also, [S1: mhm ] and like, you know like i just the whole, i dunno i, i just think it's kind of like, i understand the argument, [S1: mhm ] but, 
S1: you don't feel too sorry for the men. 
S5: well i mean... just like overall with the whole like feminist like men theory like they're socialized the same way where there's things that come out, you know limiting [S1: mhm mhm ] for them but i wouldn't say that they're necessarily, like harmful or, [S1: mhm ] um, i mean it_ there's a big difference between something that affects men, [S1: mhm ] and something that ends up like literally, harming, woman and the experiences of woman [S1: mhm ] so it's kind of hard to like, feel bad [S1: mhm ] for men in this situation. [S1: okay ] especially because like no one's forcing men to watch porn and if they knew that it was harming them and they felt uncomfortable with how it was affecting them they would stop so they obviously, don't if they're still watching it. 
S1: mhm okay, okay. by the way i mean all of what you just said that would be really good for the response paper, because certainly a lot of what you're saying i think [S1: okay ] MacKinnon would agree with definitely yeah good. Terry did you have something, you just moved a little bit. 
S18: no sorry. 
S1: <LAUGH> yeah sorry don't move. <LAUGH> yeah Jim. 
S7: in in response to that, um, i th- l- let's think back to like i_ god i don't even remember the article, way way way back like a month-and-a-half ago [S1: okay ] okay <LAUGH> where we j- where we were reading about, actual accounts, interviews, qualitative research [S1: mhm ] about how men in fact, um, have feelings of inadequacies surrou- you know surrounding like, um you know like this_ the the, the sig- the promise or the sense of entitlement to power, [S1: mhm mhm ] that they don't actually feel that they're having, [S1: right right. ] that. so i mean we have we have seen, qualitative el- evidence to prove that, but we haven't actually seen qualitative or, we haven't seen qualitative or quantitative evidence to prove a connection between, pornography and violence really. [S1: mhm ] so we_ i mean, 
S5: or pornography and that, like struggle for masculinity. i mean that's kind of just like a overall society thing you can't [S7: true ] pinpoint that to pornography necessarily. 
S1: mhm 
S7: the thing is is though too is that, the range of, um like sexual possibility for, like the average straight man is far less than it is for, the average like, heterosexual woman. like [S1: meaning, what? ] they're_ meaning that, um, like soci- the societal expectation, for_ it's the same thing with uh w- wo- how women are al- how women, have more um, agency in terms of of, stretching the the um, the gender bo- the gender boundaries and can go, [S1: okay ] um and and can go further into, areas that were once considered masculine, [S1: mhm ] but men can't go, men can't go the other direction [S1: mhm mhm ] really, and it's the same_ i mean if you if you, relate that to sexual experience you're talking_ i mean, where the silent expectation is that, that the average heterosexual male is going to be, the one who initiates he's gonna be [S1: mhm okay ] the one who conquers it's the one who'll be doing the pleasuring, [S1: mhm mhm ] not the one to be pleasured or to be pleasured or to be conquered. and i think that, [S1: hm okay. ] also, i i i and i'm playing devil's advocate here [S1: mhm ] <LAUGH> i don't actually agree with everything that i'm saying. [S1: okay <LAUGH> ] <SS LAUGH> i um, if you talk if you talk and you're talking about too as women are, i- it would be more socially acceptable for like, like i- i- you know like to say for a heterosexual woman to explore like a bisexual experience where it's not as acc- as as accessible to_ for a man to do that or as, um, as exposed or mainstream, part of of the male exper- of female of uh you know a heterosexual male experience. [S1: mhm ] um, and in terms of like, if you wanna talk like in specific [S1: mm ] tour- uh in specifically in like where on your body, you would be allowed to be pleasured i- like a l- male sexual pleasure just p- pleasure's focused primarily on the penis [S1: mhm mhm ] and th- and and the orgasm. as opposed to other centers, of sexual pleasure, which is, for women are are more accessible in terms of like, bodily because of you know th- sa- the the actual you know the societal, assumptions that for a long time women couldn't have orgasm or women [S1: mhm ] were not able to achieve orgasms [S1: mhm ] so like there's a there's an assu- there was there's been an assumption that that, the center of pleasure for women is different, it's not necessarily like, genital-specific as it is for, as it has been and always is for men where, you know there are a lot of exp- there are a lot of sexual expectations that, um, surround you know, that masculinity as [S1: mhm mhm ] there are for women too that can be just as limiting, and severe, for men. 
S5: i agree with that i just think that it's like... i feel like these um, ideals and, like standards for how sex should be and heterosexual sexuality should be, [S1: mhm ] i feel like they've been developed mostly by men, [S1: mhm ] so it's just like it's just this, it's like this irony that's really hard to swallow that [S1: mhm ] you know [S7: sure ] i mean it's not that [S1: mhm okay uh huh ] i disagree with the fact that i mean i definitely do think like, my ex-boyfriend and i got into this debate like at least once a month where, it took me like three months to convince him that like he had also been affected and (limited) by like, the same sort of standards, [S1: mhm ] that i had been upset about and, it's just_ i mean, i think it's hard (to swallow) 
S15: because it doesn't undermine like their structural power 
S5: yeah yeah i think 
S1: which is key 
S15: like men don't_ like men's dominance like, i mean if you affect them it doesn't necessarily undermine that power. 
S5: mhm 
S1: right which was obviously o- i m- or also a key point remember when we were talking about, how to be a tomboy isn't that bad but to be a sissy is, but the irony there was what does anybody remember actually_ we talked about this in class. but yeah so it seems like girls have more agency like in school, 
S15: but that's because they're not taken as seriously, and it's not 
S1: right so it's like overall why, why they have_ the reason why they have more agency is because overall they have less power. [S5: yeah ] so it's, um, so it's kind of a tenuous agency, if that makes, if that makes sense. um but Debbie you had your hand up for a while. 
S11: yeah um, like the thing that we were saying is that like um, how when th- porn h- actually hurts guys, and like yet they still watch it, [S1: mhm ] i mean it's in the same sense like as soon as someone said that as soon as she said that i thought immediately well you know what, women look at magazines and in a sense it hurts them because it creates all these eating disorders, [S1: mhm ] yet women continuously look at these magazines and look at these models as, the ideal body type but [S1: mhm ] i mean it's, hurting us. and it's just we do it every day [S1: mhm ] and we watch T-V and we think that's what we should look like or, i'm just stereotyping things but, [S1: okay ] i'd look at it the same exact way as you know guys still watch porn but they don't realize that it's hurting them [S1: mhm ] i just i yo- you know i i just didn't find it like, 
S1: okay. Rachel do you wanna respond to that at all? it's your thing_ you don't have to, <LAUGH> it was just it was your, 
S5: (xx) 
S1: okay. <SS LAUGH> um, who, somebody else had their hand up over here Allison, no? okay. [S15: i just ] yes Molly. 
S15: not about that but i wan- i i don't know if this um, is taking us where we wanna go but, [S1: mhm ] i really wanna talk about this idea of like, w- how feminists and right-wing activists are like on this same [S1: mhm, yeah ] like, you know some feminists and, [S1: right ] lots of right-wing activists are on the same (plank) for, anti-pornography [S1: mhm ] legislation and i think that's really interesting cuz like what are the, [S1: mhm ] discussing what are the benefits of, anti-pornography legislation [S1: mhm ] you know what do we really think, that's doing, (i mean) i don't know know if that helps us 
S1: okay yeah when a- why don't you start? what do you, what do you think about that? 
S14: well for me i'm just i'm i'm really un- i'm really uncomfortable uh, i, i think it's like i'm i think it's a really backwards approach, to um, to the problems of pornography just, 
S1: okay for the feminists to join with the right-wing activists? okay 
S14: mm yeah i mean i i really think i think th- MacKinnon is like, i love her theories [S1: mhm ] and like there was a period in my life where i was like, i love MacKinnon, [S1: mhm ] <SS LAUGH> i was like i wanna marry her, [S1: yeah ] <SS LAUGH> uh but like, then but then it's like i d- i don't know um, i think that like it's really great theoretical um, exploration. [S1: mhm ] but it it it if_ it makes such um, it has such little, applicability, [S1: mhm ] to people's real lives [S1: okay ] like there_ it's it's so, [S1: okay ] you know and like h- this is like h- the whole idea that all heterosexual sex is right, [S1: right right ] like these things that that that are really interesting thoughts, [S1: right ] are are really hard to transfer in to our day-to-day lives and i [S1: mhm ] don't know if it's, i don't know if it's the most progressive way to be, to just say this is all wrong you know what i'm saying, and this is_ [S1: mhm ] i'm just telling everybody that it's wrong [S1: mhm ] and it like have a happy day you know, [S1: okay ] <SS LAUGH> and i just think, i just think that it might be, it might be a very backward approach to pornography instead of like looking at pornography and being like, yes it has been this vehicle historically, [S1: mhm ] um that has, promoted and perpetuated, um male dominance and the, objectification of women. but what if we were to get in it, you know, [S1: mhm ] and like ruffle things up, [S1: mhm ] and like so i guess like now i'm more on the, which we don't read any of her but more on like the Susie Bright approach, [S1: mhm ] to pornography which is just like, she's like pro-porn woo-hoo [S1: mhm ] like, <SS LAUGH> like get in there and make your own porn and make [S1: mhm ] it she's like [S1: okay ] make pal porn, make porn with your pals and like, <SS LAUGH> like porn is like really subversive [S1: uhuh ] to what porn has been traditionally [S1: okay ] so there's something to counteract it which doesn't, which is still, which still can be, pleasurable and [S1: mhm ] like, it's [S1: mhm ] subversive in other ways so i guess that's what i'm [S1: okay ] like, cuz i think it's really weird that like feminists and right-wing activists [S1: right ] are like anti this and anti that because i think, that closing down only makes the resistance to that, more unless like getting in there and ruffling things up from the [S1: mhm ] inside. i don't know if that makes any sense. 
S1: no no i think it makes a lot of sense Ann do you wanna respond to that? 
S14: um yeah i mean i really agree with what yo- with what Molly's saying but i think it's really interesting to look at it like, from the beginning like, um the difference between why right-wing activists oppose porn versus why feminists oppose porn. [S1: mhm ] um, feminists like are, are concerned about objectif- you know the objectifica- objectification of women [S1: mhm ] the perpetuation of violence against women, and right wing activists are gonna say that that's what they're concerned about but i think what it really sums back to is like, super-duper like Christian ideal of a woman not displaying her sexuality at all. [S1: right ] and being like, submissive and quiet and like th- those are just things that you have to like keep under the covers [S1: mhm ] literally, [S1: mhm ] and it's not, like i don't i don't know, i don't i don't believe that a feminist would be like um i'm opposing porn, or i know a feminist wouldn't be opposing porn because they didn't want women to express their sexuality but, [S1: right right ] you know so i just think that's a really, i i think it's a really odd, [S1: mhm ] m- like [S15: marriage ] merger of power [S1: mhm ] like i don't, i don't understand it at all because i think their, the image is like totally different like the, 
S1: mhm mhm. well now i- the i just wanna play devil's advocate a little bit how would Dworkin or um Andrea MacKi- or Andrea i'm getting the names mixed up Andrea MacKinnon or um, Catherine Dworkin <LAUGH> obviously it's the other way, how would they respond to that though? you think? so both you and Molly are both kind of saying this is, this combination is really problematic, um because they're really coming at the issue f- very differently, from very different perspectives. but what might MacKinnon, say to that? 
S14: MacKinnon might, not care, i mean as long_ i mean she would she would just be happy that like, [S1: mhm ] al- you know many people were working on the problem. [S1: mhm ] but, 
S7: it's a means to an end, (xx) 
S1: mhm yeah yeah i think it- y- for practical reasons well we have to have these kind of odd bedfellows. yeah um Corinne. 
S4: um like my, i think my biggest problem with MacKinnon is just like, i feel like she has this overarching idea of like how sex is and like that just is, i don't know like i think that her, the fact that she doesn't see any agency in, [S1: mhm ] sex- sexual relations at all for women and how, it's all bad and such like, like Molly was saying i just don't think it, really, makes sense in like real life [S1: mhm okay. ] in the real wor- cuz i can't_ you know i mean, i think most people if you ask them wouldn't say that like_ i think that her id- her, outlook on porn kinda just, <SIGH> ah <LAUGH> it transgresses into like what she sees about sex [S1: mhm mhm ] and i don't think that it, like i don't think if you ask the normal everyday person if sex was, objectifying them and exploiting them and such i don't think they would agree and i don't [S1: mhm mhm ] think that like, engaging in such an activity is- makes women subordinate [S1: mhm ] and men dominant. [S1: mhm ] so i think that that, is a faulty part of her argument. 
S1: yes and one that she gets criticized about a lot like later on when we're talking about um rape, a lot of the same kinds of problems come up in her work. so yeah that's a good point Molly did you, 
S15: i was just gonna say that i also think it just doesn't, it doesn't, lead women to accessing their sexualities more easily. [S1: mhm okay ] like i just don't think it's the equiv- like i think it it ha- has the opposite effect that, [S1: well actually ] we see how our sexuality is like, you know it's like, now i'm afraid to, you know am i what am i you know and [S1: now i can't do anything. ] it's like, it it it, [S1: mhm ] puts on this self-consciousness which, makes us feel like, anyth- any way to access our sexuality, is, is is, transgressive. you know, 
S1: okay. well actually let me play with that idea for a minute how would MacKinnon_ what is, healthy female sexuality to MacKinnon? and she doesn't say this explicitly in this piece at all so i just want you guys to speculate. 
S15: it's it's i think it has more_ i don't know if you remember the article we read about athletics the, MacKinnon's article about, [S1: mhm ] what athletics means to women [S1: yes ] and how it was like owning one's own body, [S1: mhm ] i think that would be_ i think that's kind of what she would hope, how women could approach their sexuality as like, [S1: mhm ] ar- approaching it in a way of redefining what it means to them as opposed to using, um, a form or a medium that was male constructed [S1: mhm okay ] (xx) so she's like going into athletics and being like, what does this mean to me and how does this help me, how does this help me own my own body and, [S1: mhm, and ] but i think she would approach sexuality in the same, way. 
S1: in the same way yeah no i think that's really good conne- especially connecting it to the article on athletics. but so what does that mean? so women can only have healthy female sexuality by themselves? can they ever have it with a male partner? according to MacKinnon? wh- what do you think? you don't have to answer that Molly Rachel you wanna, 
S9: well this applies to what i was gonna say because everyone was saying they thought MacKinnon would say, maybe it's a good thing that feminists are joining up with right-wing activists because it's a means to an end regardless, [S1: mhm ] but i don't really agree with that because i think that, like ultimately that's kind of like, a jaded way to approach things like, [S1: mhm ] i understand that like when you're talking about something so extreme especially as MacKinnon's arguments that are hard to apply to daily life, [S1: mhm ] for most people anyways um, you can't like approach them from the point of view like what we want is to reconstruct the whole pornography industry and, [S1: right ] the whole way sex is approached because you can't do that and especially not, short term [S1: mhm ] but, like i think that her approach to things would be like much more um, like eventual like, [S1: mhm ] well like an eventual means to an end rather than just like, i i w- i dunno that's why i think that she would oppose right-wing activists in as far as like, how she would think, women should approach sexuality, [S1: mhm ] like with the whole athleticism thing, same idea but i think that she would think of it more like progressively, [S1: mhm ] and like a long-term goal. 
S1: okay. um although actually she does um, she obviously is very much an admirer of Andrea Dworkin, um who is part of this feminist right-wing activist, partnership. 
S9: it's just weird cuz it's kind of like con- it's like a contradiction [S1: mhm mhm ] too sort of. cuz like her ideals are so not easily applicable to something like that, [S1: mhm ] like just because you're taking away the problem of pornography which might, help solve violence against women being perpetuated and so on and so forth, [S1: mhm ] those ideas are still there i mean it's not going anywhere. [S1: mhm mhm ] you haven't changed anything or educated anybody or done anything. 
S1: mhm Jim. (xx?) 
S7: um, i just find it most interesting and like this is the reason, uh also like with, um Gayle Rubin who wrote Thinking Sex [S1: mhm ] um, why she supports pornography is because, um, it it i- th- it it facilitates an open, um exchange of sexual ideas, [S1: mhm ] and, the, the problem you have here is that the th- the reason that most, um of the right-wing activists are trying to shut down pornography is to shut down, like the the um, like, making se- like the institution of sex, a public institution they [S1: mhm ] wanna continue to b- they want it to continue to be a private institution [S1: mhm ] that is nondiscussed non- you know [S1: mhm mhm ] nonlegislated or just, stays, as it is and the whole_ which is inter- wh- which is most interesting to me because a big push in feminism was that the private becomes public, [S1: right ] because, what's going on in our private lives, is is c- is causing us just as many you know i- [S1: mhm ] just as many problems, [S1: mhm ] as what's going on in our, in our public lives, [S1: mhm ] and what we do in our private lives is just as important [S1: mhm mhm ] if not more important than what goes on, in in in public um, [S1: well an- also of course that they're very connected. ] they're very connected. [S1: yeah ] and, exactly and um, [S1: through legislation or whatever mhm ] and and we_ and they're try- and trying to make a distinction between, between public and private is, is um, is nearly an impossibility we talked about the nuts and bolts of like what is my public life what is my private life, [S1: mhm ] um, [S1: mhm ] and, you know, p- pornography, whether people_ whether it's negative or positive or people, like it or not, is is one of like the only concrete, like things that we can see of how people exchange, sexual ideas [S1: mhm okay ] and like or or images of sexuality. [S1: mhm ] um in in our culture. 
S1: mhm. yeah Molly? 
S15: i was going to add on to that and i think i think why pornography gets such a bad rap and there's so much anti-pornography, um activism out there, is because it's so blatant, the um, the, power inequality [S1: mhm okay ] you can see it so clearly in pornography. [S1: mhm ] an bu- i mean at the same time, i think it's a really simplistic approach to say that pornography causes all of these, power inequalities because we know that it's much more, um it's a much more complicated system than that like, [S1: mhm ] there's so many things, that have created, um that have created power inequality and and su- subordination and oppression, not only, not only pornography it's just one vehicle [S1: mhm ] where that gets manifested [S1: mhm ] all of those power inequalities that we experience on ev- an everyday level, [S1: mhm ] gets manifested in these images. [S1: mhm ] and i think because, it's so blatant in these images and it's so easy to point out that's why it causes so much, um, hysteria. but but you know it's like people don't, people don't, want to, go in deeper and say well actually this is because of all of these other systems, [S1: mhm mhm ] of of oppression that it's just manifested in pornography in such a way instead of, instead of going on that we just say no more pornography. [S1: mhm ] you know it's like we don't wanna look, at like why dis- why why pornography might um portray, sexuality this way you know we [S1: mhm ] don't wanna look at the cultural manifestation, we would prefer just to say pornography is bad. [S1: mhm ] and i think like that's really problematic. 
S1: okay <LAUGH>
S15: (it's problematic) <SS LAUGH> (xx) 
S1: <LAUGH> okay Corinne 
S4: uh, just to kinda go along with that i think that, another problem i have with MacKinnon is i think she just kinda, makes these sweeping generalizations about pornography and kinda like takes away from, individual experiences of women [S1: mhm ] like, you know i think that by saying like no, like i, may or may not agree with, what the industry does but at the same time i would never say that like, everything, like i i would, i mean i would just wonder what she would say to like, porn that was like, showing women dominating men like [S1: mhm ] if that was what the porn industry did would she still be, i mean, i i don't know [S1: mhm mhm ] like i just don't, think that it's fair to take away all those women's voices and just be like [S1: mhm ] well this is that and just group it into one large, 
S1: mhm. yeah Jim before i i get to you yeah just one point connected to that when we were talking about, the whole issue of agency and all that_ have any of you guys s- seen that uh magazine Mar- Marie Clare, i think it's called? okay when i was um flying down to Florida, a couple weeks ago, i was in_ i had a long layover in Memphis and i went and bought this magazine just cuz it, sounded like it was going to be fun and it was but anyway, they had this sex quiz in there that was_ i meant to actually copy it and bring it to class today. because one of the questions in there, <S8 LAUGH> was, [S8: ( i don't know) i just loved that idea ] <SS LAUGH> okay maybe i'll try to remember that for Wednesday, but one of th- but the reason why this is connected to class, is because one of the um questions in there was, it was a basically it was a quiz that you would take and your partner would take it and then you would compare your answers and see how many things you agree on. and one of them was something like um, pornography can be fun for foreplay or something like that. and the choices were agree disagree or somewhat agree. and i remember reading this and uh and, and by the way a lot of the people, um answering it they had three different couples answering it, and several of them including the women said, ag- totally agreed with that like yeah pornography can be fun it can be arousing. now to MacKinnon that's probably not a good thing, that these women are enjoying pornography maybe they're victims of false consciousness or whatever. but what was interesting to me was this is a very mainstream, women's magazine, that is talking about pornography in such a way that um, that does kinda suggest that, you know lots of women enjoy this this is not just some weird fringe group, that that likes it. so, y- so how does MacKinnon kind of account for those women, is it all just false consciousness i mean, if you get_ if you as a woman get any enjoyment out of this or arousal out of it is that like a bad thing and you should you know feel bad and never watch it again? i mean what what do you do with that i guess? um Jim you probably weren't gonna respond to that cuz you didn't know i was gonna say it but um, Rachel do you wanna, respond to that? 
S5: yeah i was just gonna say also the way they phrase that question like, i know from like Seventeen magazine when you take all those quizzes like when i was younger i used to like, be really into that stuff so, [S1: yeah <LAUGH> ] they frame the ques- they, word the questions in such a way so that, kind of the answer comes out on the side that, whoever's writing it or whatever's behind it like wants it to come out as, [S1: mhm ] like it might be different if they said, pornography is, instead of like pornography can be? 
S1: right yeah i i ca- to be honest i don't remember exactly how it was worded i will bring it in for Wednesday cuz it is um, i guess i don't remember whether it was is or can be. um but you're right that could make a difference. but um, but Jim what were you going to say? we only have a, a couple minutes left. 
S7: well this'll give everyone a laugh. um, <SS LAUGH> i was in the_ i had some sort of, uh, i can't remember what course i was in it was just another course similar to this and, um, it was just addressing like what kinds what kind of porn exists [S1: mhm ] and there w- there w- we had looked at some sort of um, like recent news bit or article where a s- a survey had been done with local, porn you know dealers or stores or whatever an- in some in a city center, and th- and and apparently the most popular um, popular video, rented, [S1: mhm ] um when the survey was done, being rented was called Back Door Boyfriend, [S1: mhm ] <SS LAUGH> and the video featured, women, who were wearing, who were wearing um strap-on dildos, [S1: uhuh ] and, you know having oral sex with their boyfriends, 
S4: Bend Over Boyfriends. 
S7: or Bend Over Boyfriends, thank you. <SS LAUGH> great. 
S4: there's a Bend Over Boyfriends Two too. 
S7: yeah. <SS LAUGH> um, [S1: kay ] but, like, it just is an example of like the kind of, of, you know like the pornos i mean that's a really really popular video i mean obvi- obviously we've got part two i mean <SS LAUGH> 
S1: yeah it must have been popular right. 
S7: we couldn't get enough the first time. um, [S1: okay. ] and the ki- and the, [S1: okay ] and the thi- and and another title i'm very fond of uh um, of Valley of the Bi-Dolls which is a, <LAUGH> [S1: okay ] (this a) 
S1: oh these right. [S1: i've i've nev- ] they're playing on obviously leg- quote [S7: y- yeah ] unquote mainstream movie titles yeah, yeah. 
S7: exactly but, i mean there is, there's porn out there that is, sort of i mean, and and 
S11: subversive 
S7: it is subversive [S1: mhm ] that's trying to be progressive [S1: mhm mhm ] or, that is gender-bending or, [S1: okay ] or just, playing with the gender dichotomy or the power uh or the power dynamics between, [S1: okay ] between people. 
S1: yeah actually_ i'm sorry Molly we're re- just about out of time but actually this is something we're gonna be talking about on Wednesday so if, you remember what you were going to say on Wednesday bring it up then. unfortunately we got through two out of five articles, as usual, so on um Wednesday_ actually i think we're gonna skip the Dines altogether i think i told you you guys could just skim that one, but definitely review Collins and um, and Hooks again i r- i really wish we'd gotten to them today, and then the other two that are specifically for Wednesday that are more about women's agency etcetera. okay great i'll see you then. 
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