



S1: nice to meet you Mr Letterman <S2 LAUGH> alright 
S2: so how's the paper? 
S1: it's good actually i um 
S2: excellent 
S1: i talked to, the day after i talked to you, outside of the building [S2: uhuh ] i talked to the, got in contact with the mall manager [S2: <LAUGH> ooh ] so cuz i asked um, when i was at Twelve Oaks, you know i i went to the security department and i said you know can i ask you a few questions and she's like no, i was like okay well. um, she says you you know, you have to get permission from the mall manager and she gave me [S2: oh ] her number so [S2: interesting ] i was able to get in touch with her. 
S2: and uh, what did you guys talk about? wow 
S1: well i asked her like about <HITS MICROPHONE> whoa, don't wanna do that, um, how the security you know like what are th- you know what what they have to deal with the most and [S2: uhuh ] average age of employees you know all kinds of general stuff like [S2: good ] you know what sh- how she feels about, surrounding malls how they've affected Twelve Oaks [S2: great ] and she she talked my ear off, <LAUGH> so 
S2: fantastic. and is that already incorporated into this paper? or, okay 
S1: yeah, yeah that's in there. i um [S2: great ] was it Tues- Tuesday night? yeah i just went to work. i spent like just hours and hours, so 
S2: great great well it looks like you have a full draft um, why don't you tell me what you think the argument of the paper is now, [S1: okay ] and uh... first of all what questions you ha- like, things you want me to look for in a way 
S1: um okay well it's about like malls moving into wealthy areas [S2: okay ] and um... and where they do like the_ changes the socialization like people, uh, you know in those areas will come to the mall to socialize instead of, like i compared it to Howell, [S2: right ] you know like old downtown like people find, different you know places like, and i, say that they socialize more in communities, [S2: mhm ] you know as neighbors and friends [S2: right ] rather than just going to one place and [S2: right ] you know hanging out there. [S2: okay ] so 
S2: um, and, were you able to talk to people in the mall, or, or what? oh your great uncle George Woodworth 
S1: yes my great uncle George 
S2: <LAUGH> that's good. um were you able to talk to, people in malls? did you decide to focus on the question of youth or not or? 
S1: i talked about yeah i i kinda split it up [S2: okay ] like into youth and adults [S2: okay ] like most of the things like i said, big parts of the paper were, how people socialize in Howell, [S2: uhuh ] um how people socialize in Novi, and why people go to the mall [S2: okay ] now instead of [S2: great ] you know whatever 
S2: and what did you use for information, for, those, three sections ? 
S1: well for Howell i used my grandma [S2: okay great ] um for Novi i used you know my uncle, [S2: right ] George i used, you know s- Kathy, and observations [S2: okay great ] at at Twelve Oaks. and then, yeah that was [S2: good ] basically all my f- you know first-hand research stuff 
S2: right good, alright so what do you- do you have specific questions about this for me like are there parts that you think are, weak and parts you think are particularly strong? 
S1: i dunno yeah i was just kinda hoping you'd read over and say this, has to be changed or <S2 LAUGH> you know whatever 
S2: okay no specific questions for me? 
S1: nope nope. 
S2: alright. let me take a look at this um 
S1: i kinda had to throw out like, th- the first outline i gave you [S2: mhm ] was kinda general idea and i had to throw some things outta that cuz like 
S2: that's fine yeah 
S1: just like rough ideas i had... 
S2: great. now, um, you m- you might though i don't know i mean and this is not so important for the paper but, i think this introduction sounds really good. um, you_ it's written really clearly and stuff. um, now i worry, whether you are capturing by interviewing your grandmother, um, that you're capturing what people do in Howell, or whether you're capturing an older, form of socializing, that still remains in Howell especially among older people. um, so you might i- it doesn't change your argument necessarily, but you might wanna qualify it in that kinda way [S1: okay ] you see what i mean? 
S1: okay i i made sure to ask well let me write that down um, qualify i actually did, um in a number of places, um things that she said that i uh that interested me i said you know, this is maybe why she says this or whatever. [S2: uhuh ] and also i made sure to ask her like, observations that i had made like, you know i've seen people skateboarding in here you know do [S2: right ] what's the deal with that? and she said 
S2: okay so you asked them about other, [S1: yeah ] um the way other people in Howell socialize as well 
S1: oh yeah yeah 
S2: and she has a lot of contacts, [S1: i mean she ] to that community 
S1: yeah she's just, she's just like_ everyone knows her in Howell, cuz she's, you know lived there, all her life and she's big into the every kinda community thing you can imagine so 
S2: did you get a, did you get and include in here the kinds of community, things that she's involved in? [S1: yeah ] okay good. um 
S1: and i pulled from the Crawford [S2: mhm ] uh a little you know from Upscaling Downtown and then [S2: right ] also from uh Fortress L-A a little bit 
S2: okay great. 
S1: oh and the Detroit News article was awesome too 
S2: <LAUGH> oh okay, um, you want me to make comments to you as we go along? why don't i [S1: yeah ] make comments to you as we go along? um, now here's a place where you could pull in more, specifically um, you know partly from the Crawford i think um, but you could pull in more specifically i mean, all businesses exist to make money. right? [S1: mhm ] i mean that's the nature of, capitalism. um, so... you gotta be a little more specific than malls exist to make money. you know what i mean? um, so, why did, does Crawford suggest and have we talked about in class that sort of that malls have developed when they have, um... to, concentrate the making of money? 
S1: um, because they can um partly cuz they can be the new town square or whatever and people can, [S2: okay ] i guess, people can go there and, l- like everyone wants_ i talk about it later on but everyone wants you know the, national kind of brands and stuff [S2: okay ] so if they put the same stores everywhere then people are gonna [S2: okay ] (and) all that kind of thing 
S2: alright, um, so national brands and you're gonna talk later about security as well, right? 
S1: yeah oh yeah 
S2: um... and you're also i know gonna talk later about uh, um <P :07> w- where's my mind um okay. you're gonna talk later about <P :07> oh well i don't remember. what's the other theme that you have that i remember from your last paper? 
S1: um oh like, well it's kinda like security with the youth and [S2: okay ] all that and uh... other theme 
S2: alright never mind we'll find it 
S1: yeah uhuh <SS LAUGH>
S2: um, um it might be good... okay here you say, your thesis is how um they change people's socializing, right? but here you're basically saying, but before we get to that we need to understand why malls develop. oh oh... just remembered, um in part this is uh the claim of Davis i gue- hm Davis and Crawford that they partly develop to fill a gap in the need to social- the gap, of places to socialize of communal places in suburbs which are just kind of tract subdivisions 
S1: yeah i did um, i th- i think i, yeah 
S2: i think that was in your outline so 
S1: it's it's in there yeah
S2: um, you might um fill suburban gap. socializing or public space, gap. um... you might want a f- foreground like, cuz you know, malls exist as you've just told me for those reasons, as well as just to make money, right? [S1: mm ] cuz all businesses exist to make money. so you might wanna just, um highlight, the_ 
S1: oh okay 
S2: you see what i mean? [S1: uhuh ] um and then you know, you're gonna talk about them later in more detail. um but you maybe wanna highlight, why malls move to the suburbs in greater detail [S1: malls ] and the- and one of the reasons, but only one of them, is that malls are built, in middle-class locations. right? so they're built um... in a way just to draw on that um higher income group. <P :05> so we'll see as it goes on if if this would affect your broader organization or not. um 
S1: let's hope not <SS LAUGH> 
S2: um, okay. this is a tiny bit repetitive in here so you might just wanna somehow tighten it up, um. [S1: okay ] <READING> (got right, democratic servant is... don't uh,) okay tells a story quite clearly. without... yeah this is good now it's developing as, a more upper-income area is that right? 
S1: yeah 
S2: you might wanna say that. [S1: mkay ] cuz, developing, doesn't tell me as what. now are there gaps i mean this is something that Crawford talks about in that map, i mean are there gaps where, lower income suburbs are? [S1: um ] or can you not tell? 
S1: basically it's just focus_ it shows like a you know a map of, southeast Michigan, and then it says i'll draw it here mm uh there's southeast Michigan, and it's, it shows like Detroit area whatever [S2: right ] and then it shows this little box, and then it shows <SOUND EFFECT> [S2: okay ] and mall mall mall mall mall [S2: right ] so basically all of this area is kinda like upper middle-class, west- this is our like west suburbs 
S2: i see so it's just showing the west suburbs 
S1: pretty mu- yeah yeah 
S2: okay and it's all pretty upper middle-class 
S1: yeah 
S2: huh. and it didn't show the other areas where the malls were 
S1: it j- yeah it was just like on the [S2: okay ] big, big map 
S2: did it make the connection um, between_ alright the wealthier cities you sort of tell me that. does it, mention the connection between malls moving into, upper-income areas or is it not a- in that article? 
S1: it yeah it didn't [S2: right mkay ] sa- it just... 
S2: okay now this is a bit of a different point. right? um, i mean, this first point about um, the mall becoming a place for people to socialize, is directly tied to your, thesis right? [S1: okay ] this is a point that you do wanna make, but you don't wanna make it in the same paragraph. right? 
S1: okay i think i talk about it later too so 
S2: well then you wanna put it where it goes later, right 
S1: then just put it, okay 
S2: <LAUGH> um <READING> beautiful glass elevators </READING> oh right. okay so [S1: just a transition ] you'll have to change that yeah [S1: yeah ] <SS LAUGH> um... now, is Howell a more lower income, midl- or like a, kinda regular old middle-class community? 
S1: yeah and it's becoming 
S2: smaller houses? and it's becoming wealthier [S1: yeah ] okay. um, you prob-... right you probably wanna make that point here as well like characterize... you know why Howell doesn't maybe have a mall... you know and maybe it will, an- and you know that its, that its sort of class is changing, [S1: okay ] or right you said it is right? [S1: mhm ] um, but you know it's been like, blue-collar workin- blue-collar middle-class? 
S1: mhm pretty much, yeah 
S2: right. okay. um... i- are there fac- are there uh auto plants nearby or no? okay 
S1: 'm'm 
S2: um, so you probably wanna characterize, Howell just more clearly than that because, your previ- the whole thing you've been arguing here is why malls go where they are, and then here you're just saying, Howell's [S1: there isn't one in ] citizens socialize differently because there's a mall well, you gotta say why there's no mall, [S1: okay ] in Howell, you know? w- um, what is that? what is the outlet mall? 
S1: that is, like, i dunno if you've been to like Birch Run or any of [S2: uhuh ] these place- oh you have okay, yeah it's like that like just, [S2: okay ] a bunch of like uh, i guess kinda national like they have a- an Adidas store, but it's it's a touristy kinda place it's not a place where you really go to shop a lot. 
S2: why not? 
S1: uh... 
S2: and people don't hang out there. is it designed differently? 
S1: it's well it's it's right near the highway i mean which is maybe but 
S2: so are all malls 
S1: so but she, i mean she said like you know, basically only tourists go there and i was like [S2: huh ] i assume it's you know because... i dunno i mean, 
S2: have you ever been there or no? [S1: yeah ] what's it look like? 
S1: it's r- it's, it's pretty small it's not like_ it's r- real new it's j- they just built it three years ago i think, [S2: okay ] and it's like here's, you know the highway and it's <SOUND EFFECT> just like two little sections and they're building more out here but, you know it's 
S2: oh so it's it's not a fully covered mall 
S1: oh no it's, it's like a it's like a [S2: i see ] huge strip mall [S2: i see ] with a bunch of outlet stores in it. 
S2: i see i see i see i see [S1: so ] okay um, you might wanna, um, explain that a little bit here just so that you tell me why that's not the kind of mall that, people socialize in, and that might help you set up the kind of description that, um i assume you're gonna do of the mall, um, of like how malls b- because of how they're built become places to socialize and [S1: yeah ] and this is clearly, built in a way that is not intended to be that way, um. [S1: okay oh yeah why ] and wouldn't serve that and wouldn't serve that function in um Howell anyway. 
S1: how it's, (xx) 
S2: she didn't mention the, outlet mall did she? oh Vitamin World is in the outlet mall 
S1: is in the outlet mall yeah, Vitamin World. my grandpa actually worked there for a little while [S2: yeah? ] just for something to do yeah 
S2: huh yeah, um, now... yeah this is interesting. um that may be really true, um, but what you've got here doesn't show me that yet. so um i mean this is a particularly yuppie kind of shopping right? the twelve kinds of mustards. now the Vitamin World may be, that kind of specialization that you're talking about but, um, i'm not in fact sure that it is. um these are like in my mind a kind of different thing these are the, l- (i mean) this is a sort of characteristic of, really upper middle-class, fairly... cosmopolitan shopping right? [S1: mhm ] and s- these are huge, um... almost_ not bulk shopping, but do you know what i mean like huge, um <P :07> anyway i- i mean i don't exactly know how to describe it but, do you see how they're probably different than the kind of gentrification that [S1: mhm ] she's talking about um... it's not about sort of buying, authentic and um, little, things produced by hand, right? these are mass marketed, um, items. that are, you know maybe found in kind of specialized stores dedicated to like, PetCo right so like everything you need for your pet [S1: mhm ] um or every- all the vitamins you need or, you know whatever. um, so i'm not sure that you can hold this point, so, think about it some more and see if it... [S1: mkay ] the dime store yeah that's great... alright now this is right. this is totally right. right. okay so here's_ right... i think you can totally make this point but i don't think the um Upscaling Downtown helps you make it. 
S1: so i just throw that out 
S2: yeah i'd just [S1: okay ] throw that out [S2: okay ] um because uh... and i don't know how you wanna organize this, but 
S1: yeah i'll hafta like kinda combine these but kinda not 
S2: yeah you might wanna combine them but start with what it used to be like and how you think, the development of these stores which are like strip mall type, strip, mall, developments on the outskirts of town, right? are changing [S1: okay ] the way people shop. and you're right that thi- from variety stores that have everything, um, you end up going to different kinds of stores for different kinds of goods. right? um, but [S1: mhm ] it's not the yuppie kind of, um, specialization. it's another kind of specialization. 
S1: oh okay 
S2: um [S1: not ] and they aren't really taking over the downtown right? they- they're located, on the outskirts, right? 
S1: okay yeah. 
S2: um and you might wanna, tie this here to_ cuz, this is not just um variety stores becoming, um these big kind of mega, specialized stores um but this is also small um, probably locally-owned stores becoming, massive, chains, no? 
S1: you mean like where people shop for all their... 
S2: no i'm just uh, stores becoming chains... no just this switch i mean this D and C, this dime store. probably somebody just, in Howell owned it right? like your grandparents' pharmacy 
S1: mm oh yeah 
S2: right? and you might wanna mention your grandparents' pharmacy, as another example... um, and those kind of locally-owned stores are being replaced by, um, big [S1: oh okay ] national chains on the outskirts of town. [S1: okay ] right? i mean and that, there is, you could, quote Williams for that cuz she does talk about how that may be happening in downtown, um, in the downtown and Alma Valley, or whatever it's called. hm, that's interesting. so, Wal-Mart as a kind of... as a variety store. um, now, why though is Wal-Mart not serving the same function as a mall for these people? 
S1: well, uh it doesn't like have the, you know, expensive kinda, national chain stores and [S2: mhm ] it's mostly geared towards, uh i don't know, like middle-class just going to get all their, like normal shopping done. i mean just normal stuff they need 
S2: okay... normal shopping 
S1: not like yeah not like specialized, utilitarian kinda stuff 
S2: okay. now, why is that different, um than the shopping at the mall? 
S1: like to the mall you hafta get specialized you know i need, my Abercrombie shirt or whatever and 
S2: okay. alright so so some, it's about specialization but, uh, not only right? it's also about, fantasy, or like, stimulating other kinds of desires right? [S1: okay, yeah ] so you might wanna like highlight, that distinction. Wal-Mart not about sort of shopping as recreation, <LAUGH> [S1: oh okay okay yeah ] right? um <P :06> but utilitarian i think that's a good term and you wanna kind of pull out that distinction. okay okay... okay now you know what i think, you might in terms of organization, um... you you wanna t- give me the community events and community groups first and then give me the other things. [S1: mkay ] cuz otherwise you've gotta include sentences like that <LAUGH> [S1: okay ] okay? so let's just move these two, paragraphs and see you have to repeat that so and so you put this up there. [S1: okay ] okay? um here we go <READING> the majority </READING> are Howell melons really good? 
S1: oh yeah. i mean i don't like melons but <S2 LAUGH> f- from what i hear they are 
S2: i see i see, right. alright so tell me what you think, the Howell Melon Festival does. i mean here's here's a, not real problem i mean, i've told you this before the way you write, that is sort of chatty has its pros and cons, right? i mean in the one, in one way it makes things very easy to read and that's very nice. um, but you can't let it get in the way of your argument. you can't let your argument kind of disappear as you kind of tell me this little story [S1: mhm ] um, so here's a good example of you know somewhere either at, the, end or at the beginning you have to tell me what i mean here's, you know this is gonna go away. um <READING> Howell has many events through the year that bring neighbors together. </READING> um, you need to tell me sort of what you think, these, this festival, or or and this farmer's market, do to socializing in Howell. um, do they, does it_ and how is that different from the socializing in the malls? i mean here's, here's an example i mean, do you think that um, in these more like community events and group socializing as opposed to mall socializing, that um, people get to, know each other i mean, that people are interacting with each other in ways aren't mediated by, commodities [S1: m- m- mkay ] or goods um, m- compared to malls. do you think that um, this like builds a kind of community tha- in Howell that kind of, identity and and maybe, something that actually people then, help each other out in particular ways or, tell me what you think it does. 
S1: i yeah it builds community atmosphere i mean [S2: right ] it's like my grandma going around and saying hello i mean [S2: right. and she ] lets people keep in contact and 
S2: right you- tell me yeah tell me what it does. 
S1: okay 
S2: um huh, so everyone in the community goes to the high school play that's very interesting 
S1: yeah i thought so too. 
S2: right, so many strangers are moving in. um yeah you do need to bring out in this section um, that, this is not just a_ in a way Howell is lagging behind this shift, that you're talking about right? i mean, uh... maybe Howell will f- forever stay outside of, but i really doubt it <LAUGH> [S1: yeah ] um so and your grandmother particularly, um is a good example of um, a previous Howell. that is in part as she says being disrupted as new people move in not totally disrupted but partly. um, so y- you'd, you even though your mom tells you, how young people socialize in Howell you you wanna recognize the way this is, a bit a representation of, Howell's past instead you know? something like that. this is a time distinction, yeah. as well as_ or an age distinction right? she's older. um right. <READING> other community events strangers coming to the city can become part of the community... </READING> what does she mean by this the golf comes second to her, socializing? to socializing with her friends? 
S1: like in other words like if if, it was you know, oops i just hit that thing <LAUGH> if, she, she wouldn't, do it if it was just golf. i mean, the only reason she does it is because, she gets to talk to her friends just like [S2: okay ] she golfs as a way to bring them together, you know 
S2: okay well you need to say that because this doesn't actually, connect the socializing and the golf it sort of says, it it could mean, she skips golf when her, friends want her to go to coffee or you know 
S1: oh okay 
S2: so... um now did your grandmother explicitly say that strangers join the, um... golf league and stuff like that and can become part of the community? or did she not say that? 
S1: did she explicitly say it? uh 
S2: cuz if [S1: i dunno what did she say? ] that's just your attempt to make a connection between the two drop it. if not, it's a substantive claim. 
<P :07> 
S1: where did she talk about the (community...?) she said, the whole- the neighborhoods are still closely knit but not the whole c- the city as a whole, [S2: uhuh ] it's getting bigger strangers are moving in 
S2: okay, okay. alright neighborhoods. are you gonna talk about that neighborhood's closely knit? 
S1: i think i do i think i mention it later [S2: okay ] i think so. 
S2: i'll put it down here to put it somewhere. um so i'd just drop that actually. [S1: okay ] okay... um, and you wanna say, uh, instead of strangers, but you wanna say something about your grandma and community groups right? what what community groups do. [S1: okay ] <P :05> uh do, how shape, how do they shape socializing right? 
S1: yeah... 
S2: okay. mkay, right... yeah so, her friends are often involved in the same groups. [S1: yeah ] do they join the same groups together or does she make friends through the groups or both? 
S1: both 
S2: okay 
S1: yeah 
S2: you might wanna... pull that out a little bit. um... now do you think_ again, do you think, cuz i think this is an older person thing. do you think this is an older person thing, or do you think kids do this too? 
S1: about, like church and volunteering at the hospital? [S2: uhuh ] i would just assume it's an older 
S2: alright. so, let me know it's an older, person thing. [S1: okay ] right? it doesn't undermine your argument for, that to be the case. [S1: okay ] right? in a way, it's just that you're s- eh then you just need to emphasize more clearly at the outset that, the comparison is partly cuz Howell is a more um, has historically been a more blue-collar, middle-class, place. um, now new gated communities are moving in, right? no [S1: in Novi, yeah ] that's Novi, Novi never mind. um <LAUGH> um that may be changing, in Howell i mean Howell may be becoming more, upper middle-class or whatever, um, but uh... the form of socializing that you're describing in Howell, um... is in part, you know seen through the view of your grandmother and thus in part, something that is about the long term community that's been there, right? [S1: mhm ] um so about like, people with h- history in, so it's not really in some sense a typical, transient suburb. it's about people with a history and a place, um and that maybe the newer residents moving in, um and some of the younger residents, don't have those same kinds of socializing networks that are like built up in that place over time. <P :07> so when you're laying out the comparison between Novi and Howell in the beginning, you probably wanna say that kinda thing right? and maybe even in that paragraph where you start to describe, um, what your uncle says about Novi. no no that's Novi never mind. <LAUGH> um, okay that's good, okay here you go... okay this is a very awkward sentence. <LAUGH> 
S1: yeah it is <SS LAUGH>
S2: right. okay, i um... okay i want you to... well maybe i should see how you, do this okay. um <P :09> it seems to me like in this paragraph there are lots of totally different things going on. um, and in general you should do this throughout the paper too. you need to go through and ask yourself what the point of each paragraph is, right? um and make sure it has a point, and make sure it says what its point is, okay? [S1: okay ] um, cuz here we've got, okay. the first sentence which is to me a really important point that you should talk more about, right? um what does it mean that the socializing is not tied to shopping for your grandmother, right? why do you think that's important? um, and and you can talk about this exception being Wal-Mart. um but you know here, you you can just drop this, right? <READING> it wouldn't be unless a mall moved in that </READING> first of all it's incredibly awkward <LAUGH> um, uh, and this is a separate point. more and more people are moving into Hower Howell um, and you're asking so- sort of_ so i think you should expand this into a, real paragraph where you say why you think that's important. um, and this is a separate paragraph now, you can't give me an answer to this question. it is an interesting question. um, you might wanna put it in a footnote instead. do you know how to use footnotes? 
S1: mhm 
S2: um, cuz... um, i mean and these are two separate things right? i mean you can't answer the question about why there's no mall been built. maybe it's a question of time. um, maybe there's a mall close enough. um, is there a mall close enough or is there a mall pretty far away...? 
S1: uh there's, i think there's kinda one in Brighton 
S2: mhm. how far away is that? 
S1: maybe fifteen, minute drive 
S2: right right maybe that's close enough so they don't need to build a mall. um, so i would actually drop this question, about why no mall. [S1: okay ] you can't answer it, um <LAUGH> uh, put it in a footnote, something like that, that'd be fine. but now this, um, i mean you might wanna, have this somewhere in here but it might not belong right here. the strangers moving in it might belong_ you mentioned sort of, strangers moving in, up, above somewhere right? instead of changing the socializing [S1: mhm mhm ] or you might wanna like make this into a real paragraph. where you look at um, sort of how, Howell may be changing, right? but without the question of sort of the mall, right...? and and, here's where maybe you can make the point about your grandmother's world being a slightly older world in Howell <LAUGH> and maybe the new residents aren't participating in these community networks maybe they go hang out at the mall, we don't know, right? um <P :05> so grandma's, Howell um, as older Howell of sort of, long-term residents... and then the newer are disrupting in some sense. does that make sense? [S1: mhm ] okay... okay. blah, blah blah blah gatch gatch gatch gatch ga- too chatty. <LAUGH> [S1: okay ] okay. ma- tell me yeah. resi- um, you might wanna switch this sentence around so you say, in com- you know um, unlike Howell, unlike sort of, older residents in Howell... residents of Novi, go to the mall to socialize. um, uh <READING> unlike older residents, residents from Novi go to the mall to s-... </READING> or or you could say unlike older residents in Howell, who depend on groups, community groups and events, residents of Novi go to the mall to socialize. that would work. you just gotta make, you gotta put Howell in there [S1: okay ] instead of just people. um, good. uh going to the mall is like, is, is an event [S1: in itself yeah ] in and of itself. um more (specific) uh... uh juh juh juh juh juh um, [S1: i couldn't figure out how to say that ] is an event in itself comma, a social event 
S1: okay alright that'll work. [S2: okay ] yeah. 
S2: okay good okay good shimmering floors <S1 LAUGH> okay um... um, tell me what these things are, instead of these things are true so, um this is like gonna be your, thesis to this section in some sense so like, um <P :07> almost all the people, walking almost all the people, um... walking around the shimmering floors of Twelve Oaks, <S1 LAUGH> um... use the mall as a place to socialize or something. 
S1: okay... so kind of a thesis of the second [S2: yeah ] part (now.) 
S2: but each age group has their own way of hanging out as well. 
S1: okay 
S2: okay...? that's interesting <LAUGH> very good... s- oh my god seven- wow. huh... alright so family. 
S1: yeah it was kinda funny when i went to ask the, the [S2: yeah ] women at the information desk i figured i might as well ask them [S2: yeah ] you know, what's the [S2: they know stuff yeah ] average age of the people going, she said well we're really not supposed to answer any questions. i was like, she's like you're supposed to get permission and everything but i think it'll be okay. 
S2: why do you think [S1: i was like ] that's that true? 
S1: see i... i was trying to figure it out and and and i, i couldn't really come up with anything cuz it's not a l- it's not c- there's no way it's a liability thing you know i mean 
S2: no it can't be a liability thing. i mean it must be in a way... since a mall is dependent so much on like, image right? i mean malls, are not about utilitarian shopping they're [S1: right ] about, promoting some kind of, image of a, fantasy place right? [S1: uhuh ] maybe in a way it's just that they wanna make sure, that their image is protected and so they wanna make sure that the, their official P-R people do all the talking instead of any employees. and that would be my, [S1: okay ] theory. <READING> the mall is a family event. </READING> that's great. now i would put these, i'd put these two, and here's a place where i think again your um chattiness is gonna interfere with your argument. um, this stuff about family is really interesting. um, and, you wanna put it into one paragraph. and give me an argument about, the mall as a family event. right? one paragraph. did she, actually_ is that a quote from her? [S1: which one? ] a family event? coming is a family event? 
S1: what'd she say? uh hold on a minute, where is it? oh, here's what became of my outline <SS LAUGH> where did_ this is her <P :07> i guess she just said they saved family, they do family things together, or something 
S2: okay. 
S1: i was trying to like write everything down while she was talking 
S2: yeah i know it's very hard to take notes isn't it...? um... well i mean i i like that framing of it whether she said it in those terms or not, i mean ma- the mall as a family event right? [S1: mhm ] um... uh it's you know uh <SNEEZE> [S1: bless you ] <SNEEZE> [S1: bless you ] <LAUGH> thanks. um, this is like a little too wordy right? so, um 
S1: yeah i'll just throw like out, yeah 
S2: so just say like... she might be saying this, in order to promote the idea that the mall is safe for families. she might, but [S1: oh okay ] she might not <LAUGH> but you know you don't need to, go into it but, i think you need to, again analyze this a little bit more in terms of, um, a- and we- we'll have to see what you do later on if, malls, if families socialize in malls... ouch... you know what's, what's that mean? what's that about? what's the significance of that? how's that different from Howell? you might just wanna like again sort of draw out some conclusions from this a little bit. now you may be, you may have a section in the end where you draw out a bunch of conclusions about this comparison i don't know so we'll s- wait until we get there. [S1: mhm ] mkay so we have families, we have old people now, here's a thing. you wanna think, and this is actually true for both of these. the mall has set itself up to be this kind of socializing place it's not just accidental, that it's the socializing place. you wanna make that clear in both of these paragraphs. do you see what i mean? [S1: yeah ] so, the mall has a mall walking program, the mall has this, thing for small children. right? so you wanna explicitly say, malls are s- you know, and why. right? now i know you're gonna say you're gonna say why eventually but you might wanna do it up front. are set up, to be social centers... how and why i mean you've got the, you've got the how here it's just you haven't made that connection. make sense? <P :08> nyah, i'll be right back. 
S1: okay 
S2: i just need a tissue. 
<S1 LEAVES> <P :25> <MAN IN BACKGROUND TALKING NEXT 1:07> <S1 RETURNS> 
S1: that guy's talking pretty loud <LAUGH> 
S2: he's the largest- he has the loudest voice in the history of the world. <P :05> he's one of sort of, Ann Arbor's resident slightly crazy, not really crazy 
S1: oh he comes here a lot? 
S2: all the time 
S1: oh okay 
S2: he talks to himself and other people and, um, he's not really crazy just a little bit crazy. okay. uh, ta ta ta ta ta <LAUGH> <READING> attention mall walkers </READING> okay right <LAUGH> okay um <P :08> here you're just sort of saying, you're, um, you're making a move to make this more complicated argument here about, um, what window shopping means to people that window shopping is about, um stimulating desires, in some sense, um <P :05> and like, uh in Crawford's terms trying <LAUGH> trying on what you can't buy, trying on commodities right? you probably want to say that. um cuz this quote doesn't actually quite do that for you, it says, um <READING> the shopper arrives with a confusing set of wants. </READING> right it doesn't say, so so that's, i think that's a good point but you also wanna say, what, window shopping itself does, right? cuz this is about arriving with different sets of wants not about window shopping entirely [S1: oh ] okay? [S1: i thought ] um, she does talk about it she talks about trying on commodities window shopping as trying on commodities and this is sort of what you're saying. in the back of_ they feel that they need many different things but can't actually afford to buy them. so window shopping is a way of like [S1: okay ] satisfying that desire. so you wanna say window shopping is a form of satisfying that desire not, just socializing right? cuz that makes your argument more complicated. okay uhuh yeah okay alright this is good <P :06> <LAUGH> okay that's very nice. [S1: cool ] mm 
S1: this is kinda what i was, talking about with the window shopping. that's why, i kinda 
S2: right um... yeah i mean y- this may not belong here and it may not, belong in this form. [S1: okay ] out or move or something. um, because, if you wanna talk about, the mall being successful as bringing people there to socialize you should talk about it where you're talking about that <LAUGH> [S1: uhuh. ] alright now, from what i see you don't have, let's see da da da da da... okay right... okay. um, you don't have later, something where you talk about um, why, the malls want people, to come, and be social and window shop 
S1: i guess not 
S2: right. so [S1: right on ] you you want that. because that ties together, these arguments, right? this ties together the family, the old people, why there are, restaurants why there are, movie theatres right? that, malls are designed, to be social centers tied to, places where you buy things. so you really wanna look back at Crawford's argument about, malls as sort of fantasy lands, um, to stimulate, consumer desire, right? and you wanna, use that, maybe to introduce this section, or to conclude this section or something. cuz that's a really important argument. 
S1: where where is your mailbox by the way? i should probably ask ab- cuz it's due like in your mailbox on Tuesday 
S2: oh yeah um it is um you know where the door to our our office is? i mean to our classroom is? 
S1: yeah 
S2: it is s- down three floors, and that same door. you see what i mean? um 
S1: oh. okay. on the first floor? 
S2: right. but the first door on your left as you, walk in from that side. or the last door on your right, depending which side you're coming from. okay? um, and uh it's, the mail folders are on the left-hand side after you walk in the door, um and alphabetized but um, s- it's a little confusing like there are two sets of alph- i don't know why <S1 LAUGH> um so it's a little confusing. <LAUGH> okay. now, security isn't just there for appearance right? i mean you're um, you're undermining, the importance of this argument that you make here. right? um, the appearance of safety 
S1: right [S2: is really important. ] just so people can see them. yeah just so people can see them and know that they're there 
S2: right. but the appearance of safety isn't just like, an unimportant thing right? the appearance of safety turns out to be really important. so, um, well i guess this doesn't under- um, okay maybe l- that doesn't undermine it. that's okay i guess 
S1: maybe just add the [S2: yeah ] appearance of safety or something? 
S2: sure <LAUGH> see you were socializing, at Meijers <S1 LAUGH> okay this um you're getting a little wordy in here right? you might wanna make this, one paragraph right? [S1: okay ] shorten a little bit. it's not really important but you're just... okay, okay okay i mean here again you've got, i mean these are sort of two separate things right? two separate points this point, really important. um, but you kind of say it and then you move on to something else. um, so, you wanna, think about this brand name, business i mean i think you're right that, um... um... 
S1: isn't this kinda like why, all the pro- it's from the mall because like they're all made from the same kinda like structure across the country and? 
S2: yeah, but now i_ Crawford might have a point that you could, help make your argument more but it's not this one, i mean doesn't she talk somewhere about um, uh how if you're a private independent company you actually have to, pay more for mall space? i think she does. [S1: mkay ] um, if you're like a private uh you know not chain store. so you might wanna talk about chain stores, here. but, your, the point about the mall system dominating real estate, re- <LAUGH> no retail, sales um, doesn't necessarily belong here i mean this might be, something that you, use earlier in the paper to set up the importance of malls, right? earlier... but it doesn't belong here... okay... <LAUGH> alright so so maybe in fact, you s- um, you could have a paragraph about brand names and chain stores right? and then, um, have a second paragraph... um, or second sort of point about uh, because of national advertising, through advertis- you know this point, um... advertising and the malls themselves right? and sort of, the malls, themselves, as people are window shopping etcetera, which is in and of itself advertisement <LAUGH> um [S1: hm... ] right. um... make people, feel like they have to, own these brand name clothes. right? <P :07> and that the most important things, are you know wearing these brand names on your body so are this, is this clothing point, right? no. i think it is true. okay... um <P :05> you know uh... this is true throughout this paper. it's it's at a pretty good stage i mean you've got a good, um, discussion of your primary materials, it seems to have like a basically good organization, i mean you need to you know fiddle like i've been suggesting fiddling, um, and tighten up at some points. now may be the time to ask yourself, how else this fits in with other readings that we've done. cuz so far we're a little bit short on that kind of connection, right? um, and we've talked a lot in this class about, um, using clothes to proclaim a certain kind of status now, um... there's not a reading that's gonna make the point that you need to make here exactly. but if you looked at In Search of for, for Respect or something like that, um, he might make a similar point about clothing right? about symbolic capital. in fact he, definitely does. [S1: mkay ] um, and of course uh, it has a different meaning to the kind of upper middle-class people that come to the mall than for the crack dealers. um but you wanna think about those kinds of, categories that we've thought with in this class a little bit and see if they can, if you can use them in your analysis in some way, right? to expand exactly like this point, what it_ why do people feel like, they can, obtain a certain status? what do we mean by that, you know? um, why is it through clothes? um... so you wanna, yeah. you wanna think about those kinds of ways of making connections. and, i think even uh, doesn't Crawford make the point that that's more important in suburbs, um or in in th- in actually modern, the way America is, most Americans live now, no matter where they live, um, b- because you don't live in a sort of fixed community where people, know your whole history and stuff? [S1: mhm ] right? so you, probably wanna, um, they don't know your connections they don't know your family they don't know you so you, the [S1: oh, yeah ] th- the statement you make with, the consumer items that you wear becomes more important now that may not be so important in Howell. certainly not important for your grandma. cuz she has all those connections. [S1: right ] right? so you wanna, think about those kinds of theoretical moves that, Crawford and um Bourgois, um, make. in non- ne- the sort of, the traditional sociology term for this is non face-to-face communities. you don't need to use that but that's what i'm writing down here just as a shorthand for that argument. right? [S1: okay okay ] and, my shorthand for um In Search of Respect is I-S-R... so probably actually what you should do is go back and actually just, um, read this one more time, go back and read the Crawford one more time, and see if there're any sort of other sort of arguments that help you out. um, [S1: mkay ] and look at your notes from the class think about the symbolic capital stuff in In Search for Respect, and then figure out how to weave those into what you've got here, you know? you don't need to restructure it entirely but just where are they gonna let you, dra- and you know several places i've said you should um, expand, like, um, like this point of people feeling pressure to buy clothes from stores right? from these brand names so that's you can use them to, expand that argument about the meaning of brand names in contemporary society and why they're so important, right? we know they're important <LAUGH> [S1: mhm mhm ] um, but why? and why not maybe for your grandma? and why for people who go to malls in, Novi? um so um, Abercrombie's more expensive than American Eagle? 
S1: oh yeah. it's [S2: okay ] about twice as much [S2: okay ] almost. even though they're like the same clothes, basically. 
S2: yeah. okay here you go. now, this is, these are important observations about what stores are in this mall, um, but you just make the observations and don't kind of milk them for, the kinds of connections you can make to the stuff we've talked about in class right? so, um, here's a good example this is clearly, a like, middle middle-class not an upper, upper middle-class mall, right? um, and <P :06> and in, in our kind of, little chart about, on the, the column that says, consumption, um, remember how we talk about sort of, the niche, the sort of niche marketing of, of even malls right? so that malls, really carefully analyze their and this Crawford's argument too, re- malls really carefully analyze, the income the style the, um, uh, desires of the people in the surrounding area. and, choose the stores and the decor and everything else to, match and stimulate those desires, right? um, you wanna maybe think about that argument and and, maybe even, um, and talk about it a little bit, um as to, so y- so we can understand why maybe, we have J-C Penney's, Sears, Hudson's, and Lord and Taylor and not Nieman-Marcus and Nordstrom's right? <LAUGH> [S1: mhm ] um, [S1: okay ] okay? so that's just you know, it's in this paragraph make that point. um... i mean this worked out okay. absolutely. i would actually drop this um, because uh here you're you're talking about youth, right? so this is a youth section. oh i see. well i see. i see you're trying_ i got it. um, this should be a youth section. because you're about to 
S1: jus- should i move this or just take it out? 
S2: um, it depends if you have other things to say about why adults go to malls [S1: mhm ] in here, or before? 
S1: later. 
S2: later. [S1: yeah ] okay then put it there 
S1: i think later i- 
S2: i mean you talked about adults going to, eat dinner and stuff [S1: oh ] at malls before. is that what you're thinking of? 
S1: yeah and then they also go to window shop and stuff i dunno i guess 
S2: yeah so so move move before or something [S1: okay ] um, or uh... yeah. or something cuz this is the section about youth. make it be about youth. <P :05> and you might wanna summarize here um, what you said you know, as discussed above adults come to the malls for... above, adults come to malls <P :05> for, blah diddee blah diddee da youth, come to malls for_ okay? um, here i would um, why is this important in suburbs? right? 
S1: cuz you need to have a car to go anywhere [S2: right ] yeah. okay so 
S2: i didn't hang out in a mall when i was a kid and my parents would never drive me around right? but like f- it is, you're right this is a very important point like, youth can't drive, they can't drive period. <LAUGH> um, so malls, the the way malls bring, stores and and movies and everything together, are even maybe more important for, young people right? um mhm wow now that is interesting. what's up with that do you think? 
S1: well she, did i 
S2: okay here we go. 
S1: no or [S2: hm? ] no i didn't. 
S2: okay now see [S1: well ] here here here you go. um, here's a kind of example of where you're trying to make a connection, but the im- the importance, tying paragraphs together, is not so important. what's important is having your argument, clear throughout. right? so instead of trying to make that kind of connection, um, think about sort of how this point fits in to the previous points and tell me what this paragraph is about. do you see what i mean? um, the, it's not_ flow is not, so important in this sense of like every paragraph, leading perfectly int- into the other. what's important is the argument being consistent and flowing throughout. right? um, so. uh, alright now here you're talking about adults again. [S1: where? ] but here you're actually talking about everybody 
S1: i think yeah 
S2: okay, alright... okay. now <READING> aesthetically places... </READING> okay why is, um, why is this different from aesthetically nice places? 
S1: i dunno i guess not i just always thought aesthetically was like visual. but it's not? 
S2: good point um, goodness i- i don- i don't know but i don't think so. [S1: okay ] i think aesthetic is 
S1: just everything? 
S2: well... Janet? <LAUGH> what is, aesthetically? is, doesn't have to be visual. does it? it's just kind of artistically in some sense? [R1: mhm ] right. so it doesn't have to be visually. um, but you might wanna make that, visual s- distinction, and, uh, the music aromatizers or whatever. [S1: okay ] um, so visual, plus other senses. right...? okay. i think this is a really important point. that needs to be somewhere else. um, because here is, um... this is a way that malls design themselves to be places you wanna socialize, right? that's the point of this paragraph. um, and this applies for everybody right? for adults for youth for, everyone so you might wanna put this, early... does that make sense? 
S1: <LAUGH> there's just some of that in for... 
S2: now. what did you observe, about the way, Twelve Oaks, is designed? that is, um, i mean does it have, oh you said it's gonna have a glass elevator. but it doesn't now. right? what has it got? 
S1: it has, it had, like one crappy elevator [S2: okay ] and now it has two like glass elevators 
S2: okay, so it has two glass elev- it's, no. two glass elevators, um fountains, marble, what? 
S1: fountain, there's a fountain 
S2: fountain. what else what else does it look like? describe it to me 
S1: well they're just like tearing up the whole f- first floor right now 
S2: <LAUGH> okay [S1: so ] um did she, uh uh did Kathy say what they were, um redesigning it for, or um what it was gonna look like when they were done or anything? no, okay. um, before, it was all torn up. plants, marble, what? what did it look like? 
S1: w- it, it wasn't like one of the nicest malls i've been to [S2: okay ] or anything like, there weren't really any any plants there was no signs before like i hope i put that in there somewhere but they had, you know they have signs now that tell you which way to Sears which way to J-C Penney and they were really nice and [S2: uhuh ] there was only one crappy elevator and, oh what else... 
S2: okay. he- here's, these two things do belong together. but they i think belong earlier, right? because here's, the, the problem is that um, Novi was an early mall right? 
S1: i th- yeah 
S2: fairly early you said it was made in the seventies right? [S1: uhuh ] um, and uh, they're, renovating it why? <P :06> ignore what you wrote. you didn't tell me why they're renovating it. but you thoughtfully put these two paragraphs together, because you think they belong together and you're right. so why do you think they're renovating, the mall? 
S1: s- s- it's just to, make sure that people go there instead of other places 
S2: okay to make sure people go there now why do they have to renovate it? 
S1: because of 
S2: so that people will go there 
S1: instead of other nicer malls 
S2: okay, right so i mean, it's about, this in some sense it's about kind of creating a beautiful, um fantasy space. right? that's, um, up with the times, right? that's not somehow like seventies style right? <LAUGH> um that's not, but that's not only up with the times but of course the standards of sort of mall decor have, increased right? so they kind of, um, i mean it's not gonna have real Siberian tigers and Ching, dynasty vases, even when it is redesigned but like, since malls have gotten to be more and more luxurious spaces on the inside, people's ec- expectations of malls as spaces of luxury have increased right? um, and Novi has to, has to remodel or it's gonna somehow seem like some seventies strip mall. and if it doesn't succeed in being, a, comfortable, um, you know fantasy space people won't socialize there and if people don't socialize there people don't shop there right? cuz the socializing and shopping experience is tied. um, so okay here we go. so. this is a sort of movement towards conclusion. right? [S1: uhuh ] down here. you need to like, expand the conclusion to some degree... this needs to move up where you're making the broader point cuz you need a frame- oops <LAUGH> <LAPEL MIC FALLS OFF> you need a frame for parts of this. um... help... Janet... my thing fell off <LAUGH> 
R1: oh no, (let go.) oh it uh 
S2: where does it go? 
R1: it's a sort of, it's a sort of key chain like thing. it it's uh 
S2: oh i see 
R1: this fits between... do you [S2: oh it's too ] wanna take it for a second? 
S2: sure 
R1: i don't want you... yeah 
S2: oh 
R1: there 
S2: how weird... there [R1: very interesting ] thank you 
R1: uhuh 
S2: <LAUGH> okay? um <P :05> okay so, this needs to go, um early. and i might even ab- be able to suggest where. um, where you're gonna set up, the kind of, argument of how malls design themselves to be socializing [S1: mhm ] spaces, right? um... and, that ta- and you can you know then say you know, this mall is right now under renovation exactly to maintain, its, status and, um... as a comfortable, safe feeling, um... glitzy <LAUGH> space. where people um, where people feel, wealthier than they maybe are <LAUGH> um, and, um... are stimulated in this, these vario- various ways. right? um, so you wanna you know i- make that argument clear, setting up. [S1: okay. ] um, and it, probably goes yeah i mean it probably goes right here. or somewhere like that, right? and you need to set this argument up for me of malls as socializing spaces... and and, you need to um, in that you should look at Crawford for her argument of how, socializing and buying get linked right? and then you can go through, your family, you know that th- th- this takes different forms for different, people right? you've got families, you've got old people, you've got youth, right? 
S1: mhm 
S2: that make sense? 
S1: yeah... 
S2: now why do you think, that there's nobody in the middle? why do you think it's forty-five to sixty and [S1: w- ] seventeen to nineteen-year-olds that work there? 
S1: she said it was you know the gap between, you know the baby boomers and and the, you know and youth but, i didn't really see how that would kind of fit in to my [S2: no. me neither ] argument so i just used it as a transition 
S2: yeah, um... i don't exactly know what it's about either. um, mall jobs don't pay good wages. [S1: mhm ] right? [S1: mhm ] they're pretty badly paying service jobs. um, so it makes sense that, young people would get them. um, and it makes sense that retired people might get them to supplement, their income. there're also probably not, a lot of them even full-time. like they often hire you know part-time casual labor, um... so it's an interesting question it's, it very possibly could be that um, these are you know, displaced workers in some sense. um, and that um... you know displaced from i don't know what but uh... and they've had to take significant, pay and status cuts working at the mall. so i mean that's just an interesting_ to think about i- you can't probably get the answer to it but, um... alright so, um... so it seems pr- i mean it seems like you've got all the details that you need. what you need is a slightly clearer frame. and i think it's even like in a fine order to do the Howell stuff first then to do the Novi stuff, um, what you need to make sure you do is not, um, don't get caught up in your, transitions as much and instead like ask yourself, alright what's the argument of this section? um, have i used, the materials from_ have i used Crawford's argument sufficiently have i used, Davis' sif- sufficiently have i really argued each of the sections right? so like the security section you need to make sure and i think the security section is pretty good that's a good example. um... where'd it go? security... where'd your security section go? oh here we go. mhm, security yeah. um <P :07> i mean here's the here's the good place where you need to you know, um... here's a place where you could tie, this need for security need to feel safe to broader sort of transformations why do people need to feel safe right now...? you know? why need to feel safe... um, why does why does safety equal... um, fairly homogenous... um, especially in terms of class, um, social groups you know? 
S1: okay, so 
S2: so there's a good opportunity for you to, look outward a little bit and, ask how this connects to some of those bigger things we've been talking about. so look for other opportunities to do that and you can- you don't need to write whole paragraphs about that right you just need a couple of sentences that, will help, actually structure, help, highlight and structure your argument. um, and then it'll be totally great. 
S1: okay <LAUGH> is the, was the end okay? i mean 
S2: i- it- ended a little quickly <LAUGH> i mean these are good 
S1: i mean like you- i know in my first outline you told me to try and, make broader, [S2: right ] conclusions about how it [S1: yeah ] affects our culture but i couldn't [S2: right ] figure out you know, like exactly how to_ so i just asked the question you know? 
S2: okay asking the question is good now, um, Davis and Crawford. you're right they don't actually give, great answers but they they give some answers, right they s- they suggest it does ac- some things. do you agree with them or not...? 
S1: well i guess i don't 
S2: well i dunno i mean you know maybe partly maybe not entirely um, uh, yeah i mean these are really good questions. i don't expect you to be able to answer them. right? i mean, these are big questions. um, but you <LAUGH> that's very cute. um... it might be fine to end with these kinds of questions. um, but you need to... um make this a little more, expand this a little bit more, right? so what have you argued in this paper? remind me. right? [S1: okay ] um, and then you, you might wanna, um discuss a little bit more, i mean okay. why would maybe, um, the consumer connec- sorta the connection between consumer, um, well the connection between buying whatever and socializing, that you find in in the mall in Novi, why, might that strengthen or weaken the social fabric of America? [S1: okay ] i mean y- you wanna, i mean those are good questions but, um you haven't like laid ou- you know, why might they? um, and you know Davis and Crawford have some answers right? i mean they suggest that, malls increase sort of segregated socializing experiences, um, make people more fearful, of strangers, in some ways because, we're more fearful of uncontrolled environments, because they expect a certain level of security. um, do, um... you know Davis, suggests more sort of fundamentally that socializing through commodities, has a negative effect on relations between people. you at least wanna think about that argument. you don't have to agree with it or y- or disagree with it necessarily but you wanna_ maybe you could do it in terms of questions but you need the questions to be more s- um, more textured more substantive more, more elaborated so, you see what i mean? 
S1: yeah, yeah. 
S2: um, and partly i think when i say that, um, i also just want you to be making those connections as you go through about malls you know, stimulating consumer desire right? um, about uh, what else...? um, you know you might want to in the section that you're talking, um, well maybe not. um <P :06> oh and about sort of um, malls as spaces that um, connect uh, socializing and, um, buying right? i mean the kind of point of Crawford [S1: mhm ] so you just wanna draw out those points and use them partly as a frame for your analysis. you look about as tired as i am. 
S1: hm? i'm tired <S2 LAUGH> okay 
S2: but no this is this is totally great and um, you know since you've done this much work already and you've got five days left to finish it, you're gonna be totally fine [S1: yeah okay ] you're way ahead of most other people <LAUGH> so be happy. 
S1: alright. (so what's your) 
S2: alright so do you_ does that make sense to you the kinds of comments i just made? 
S1: yeah 
S2: okay. other questions for me? 
S1: um, uh d- do y- did i do a reasonable job like... like on this you wrote, you know right here you said broader economic shifts and here you [S2: right ] said, culture more broad did i do an okay job of trying to, i mean [S2: um ] i'll have to expand a little bit about you know at the end here the questions but 
S2: yeah well um, you haven't made the connection to the economic shifts right? i mean, do you see what i mean by that? um... i've suggested places that you can, right? so, um, both, when you're looking at what stores are in, the mall right? [S1: mhm ] so thinking about um how, malls are good examples of, uh, the way consumption is now organized in terms of really like narrow, um, sort of class markets right? whereas we used to have Sears now we have like, a mall for people at exactly these incomes and this neighborhood and a mall for people with exactly these you know [S1: yeah ] right? um so, that information is here, but that point isn't, you know you haven't made that argument. so you should work to do that um, the other sort of obvious place to do that um, in terms of the, uh <P :06> oh um w- you know one is in the security, right? why now? [S1: okay ] right? um, and in part it's uh, you know, the question of fear of crime being a sort of broader cultural phenomenon right? people are sc- people are scared because of media representation for all sorts of reasons um and partly because uh, there are a lot of, really really poor people <LAUGH> um, there are a lot of homeless people, and, um... that kind of, ex- increasing inequality, um, you got lots of strategies for dealing with it right? and the strategy we're kind of engaged in now is a strategy of making sure people just stay away from each other and then feel safe, right? um, so, there's another place where you can, you know make that broader, a a connection to sort of broader both cultural and sort of economic things going on. does that make sense? [S1: mhm okay ] um other questions...? alright 
S1: nope i guess not [S2: good ] alright thank you 
S2: totally good. um, and uh, tomorrow will be pretty mellow. um, we'll watch this movie, we'll eat doughnuts 
S1: oh really? okay 
S2: yeah we'll talk about [S1: cool ] we'll talk about, i mean i think i think it's a good thing to end on the question that you sort of brought up today as well about sort of okay so, what do we do? [S1: yeah ] like <SS LAUGH> um, we've just laid out some depressing things some good things some you know, problems of all sorts of kinds, what are the different sort of, ways of dealing um, so that's what we'll do tomorrow 
S1: and then just have that outline about which, [S2: yeah ] is gonna work best and [S2: yeah ] which isn't? okay. [S2: yeah ] cool. 
<P :07> 
S2: alright, have a good weekend 
S1: <PUTTING BOOKS IN BAG> ah get in there <LAUGH> 
S2: and i'll see you tomorrow 
S1: yep, sounds good. 
S2: make sure you take this off before you uh head out of here. or you aren't gonna get so far. now i really hope that Danika isn't here yet what time is it anyway? how do you get this off? 
S1: you just like push on this part 
S2: uh i have kinda incompetent hands at the moment [S1: oh, yeah ] that may be my problem <LAUGH> 
S1: where is 
S2: can you do it? 
S1: yeah. it's caught? 
S2: yeah it's caught somehow. oh here it's got this little, there we go. here 
S1: what time is it? 
S2: what time is it? 
S1: holy shit it's four o'clock 
S2: oh my g- 
<BREAK IN RECORDING> 
S2: <LAUGH> the joys of academic research. alright so lemme finish reading this 
S3: am i supposed to fill this thing out too? 
S2: uh yes [S3: okay ] oop sorry <S3 LAUGH> what was the poster of Pokemon? Pokemon, what is that? 
S3: oh where, it's the, at that, the same booth that had all the, (xx) 
S2: right right right. but, what is it? 
S3: oh it's the little Japanese, toy, things [S2: oh right right right right right right right right ] that, i had no idea why they would have that, but, i can explain that in there. 
S2: i bought a beautiful, dress there 
S3: oh yeah? 
S2: it's really gorgeous. alright. 
S3: that's just, notes 
S2: okay. alright here you've got some good stuff [S3: okay ] um, now, how- wait okay they're, lemme talk about first the details that you have since we don't really have a, structure [S3: right ] to talk about yet. <SS LAUGH> and then we can talk about how to get that structure. um... here's what occurs to me in most of this. [S3: mhm ] um, and and it's fine to do this first, a kind of exercise [S3: mhm ] in description. it's totally cool. the next step, and that will help you sort of craft your argument. is, to, analyze this stuff [S3: right right ] more so right like um you don't want to do a um, whole description of, the um, booths at the festival, listing [S3: mhm ] what they do, without sort of [S3: right ] analyzing as you go along [S3: right ] cuz otherwise you'll just have to be repeating yourself or something [S3: right ] so. um, you wanna see sort of what clusters i mean just talking about the booths [S3: mhm ] the stuff, fall into so you've already got a couple clusters you've got, the, um, uh, organizations, sort of the [S3: mhm ] nonprofit organizations. um, and, um, i don't know if you, got any more of a sense, from the literature that they had at those, um special like the National African-American Parent Involvement or the Community Learning Post, um, what, they thought they were doing at the festival or why [S3: uhuh ] they were there or did you did you get any sense of, the organ- those organizations? 
S3: well, the African-American, m- parent [S2: mhm ] whatever it was <LAUGH> they didn't have, at least i didn't see that they actually had any literature [S2: right ] that they were really campaigning for anything they had a lot of photographs, it was more like this is what we've done [S2: mhm, right ] than, like recruiting i mean like uh Planned Parenthood and NARAL were there actively, they were there actively to, ca- you know they had petitions to sign and [S2: right ] leaflets to hand out and, the paren- 
S2: do you know what the? yeah go ahead 
S3: the parents' organization really just seemed to be more of a, report than a 
S2: right right we have this, [S3: mhm ] it's just like annual, involvement [S3: right ] day and, you should do it or whatever. [S3: mhm ] um, what do you know what kinds of things, that Planned Parenthood and National Abortion Rights had um... had, literature about or things to sign or? 
S3: um there wa- NARAL had a, petition [S2: mhm ] abou- and it was i think just, i don't even remember it was something, sign this and send i- and we'll send it to the legisla- i- [S2: right ] the_ your senator representative, saying that you support abortion 
S2: s- abortion rights okay so just kind of generalized 
S3: and then, and then just a general_ they have like, it's actually kind of a nice brochure but they_ it's just a really vague general sort of, this is your right blah blah blah. 
S2: right so nothing, no kind of specifically [S3: no ] targeted [S3: no ] or anything okay. um... yeah, they may in fact especially those two organizations that are historically fairly white organizations, um, may have tried really actively to, um... may try actively to go to sort of, local African American community festivals and stuff [S3: mhm, mhm ] and there was one other group that was there but they didn't have a booth they were walking around did you see them? um 
S3: i don't think so 
S2: now what were they? <LOUD BACKGROUND NOISE> they were_ they had_ it was two organizations working together um, boy is that loud, um, one, was the um was the Friends, um, [S3: uhuh ] American Service, Co- ooh what do they call themselves? American Service Committee? 
S3: i ye- some- yeah 
S2: do you know what i mean? something like that? um, and they have a um, prison project, actually [S3: oh okay ] um locally so they were passing out information about their prison project, and um, the Ann Arbor Fair Housing, League was 
S3: okay i missed both of those <LAUGH> 
S2: that's okay that's okay, um was passing out um, uh, flyers about their, housing testing [S3: uhuh ] um, and requesting volunteers, um, of all ages, races, sexes, though they generally need more men cuz they've got more women [S3: uhuh ] um uh to, go do housing testing, so those are two additional organizations [S3: okay ] but, um, none of these organizations may add very much to your argument because... 
S3: they didn't do much 
S2: well, whatever yeah they're there i mean, they're there as_ i mean and it's important to think of, i mean they, what is the significance of being, them being there? i mean, whether you see them doing much or not what, what could you say the significance of them being there? why are they there in some sense and? [S3: um, ] cuz if we can't have any kind of reason, you may as well put them in the footnote 
S3: leave it out right <S2 LAUGH> um... ah they probably just saw it as an opportunity, where there would be a lot of people in one place [S2: right ] to reach an audience that they may not otherwise have reached. 
S2: right. okay so and right it may be partly to sort of expand their audience and to [S3: mhm ] increase sort of diversity. um... i mean it may also be in part an, a kind of recognition of, um... the, political importance of the African-American community [S3: mhm ] i mean that may be also a reason that the Learning Post wants them there you know? [S3: yeah ] um, uh... i mean both, like they want them to be part of their organizations because it increases their sort of base and political power [S3: mhm ] but um, also especially the Friends and um, the, housing activist ones, are kind of, um, none of those are organizations that are actually centered in the African-American community but they are organizations, that have historically had those kinds of links [S3: right ] and, that sort of black political activism has been important for_ so, you jus- you might wanna think about them as, um, markers of a tradition of kind of activism. [S3: mkay ] maybe that's one way to interpret it. um... alright you've got the food 
S3: i don't yeah [S2: um huh? ] mhm [S2: uh ] found any real i mean i don't have any analysis yet [S2: right <LAUGH> ] all i've done is, write [S2: that's okay ] it down for myself 
S2: that's okay, um, so talk to me about what you think the analysis is. uh 
S3: on the food? 
S2: sure. 
S3: i don't know i- the food wasn't_ there wasn't really anything surprising [S2: mhm ] um, 
S2: anthropology doesn't have to be about surprises [S3: right <LAUGH> ] everyday life 
S3: the... i think there was definitely a recognition that in order to have something like this, um, even though there may be largely political motivations, in order to get people to come out and have a good [S2: right ] time there has to be food involved 
S2: absolutely, yeah 
S3: and, that they... were in s- in in some part just appealing to what you know kids would wanna eat like th- with the snow cones and [S2: right ] popcorn and stuff. but also there was some sense of, i mean all the people selling food i believe were black, [S2: uhuh ] so there was i think some sense of like, you know enjoy your heri- it was kind of a [S2: right ] heritage festival type thing. 
S2: right. yeah i think definitely. um, it was also all, uh, small businesses [S3: right right ] um, [S3: like y- ] except for Zingerman's. [S3: right ] Zingerman's did have a table there 
S3: they gave me a free free roll it was real good 
S2: i know they_ me too <S3 LAUGH> very tasty. um [S3: ah ] sorry 
S3: <LAUGH> that's okay 
S2: um, so um, i mean this also may be an attempt to- and some of them were like small caterers [S3: mhm ] and stuff um, that probably don't even have um business locations so [S3: right ] this may also be an opportunity for local small, African-American businesses to 
S3: get the word out 
S2: yeah get the word out, um 
S3: cuz i think it was like thirty dollars to get a booth, [S2: right ] so for a thirty dollar investment if you can 
S2: not very much, yeah. um, so that_ and that may be you know something that the community lear- leaning post also, um, is committed to [S3: mhm ] i mean it's supporting sort of black businesses and um, and helping, you know, uh, them, get more you know business and clients [S3: mhm ] and stuff like that. um, so those are you know those are some good, uh reasons i mean you're right they're all s- it was all, um, barbecue, um and you know barbecue is, or mostly i mean all the, um hot food. [S3: mhm ] um and barbecue is a particul- i mean is a particular sort of Southern tradition [S3: mhm ] and has a particular African-American tradition so, it's also a kind of, calling on that a little bit [S3: right ] um so 
S3: because usually at these outdoor festivals, you see like, there's a Greek stand and [S2: right ] somebody selling onion rings and stuff like that [S2: mhm ] and there wasn't any of [S2: mhm ] that. 
S2: right. so th- you know they presumably made that decision cuz [S3: mhm ] um, you know, maybe there wouldn't be other people who would wanna get booths there, um, but also they may have specifically searched out [S3: right ] for, um... particular kinds of businesses [S3: mhm ] um, okay now, the merchandise i mean, what kinds of, themes do you see coming out of, the, i mean okay thinking of the question, how this festival is representing an African-American community [S3: mhm ] and what, how it's defining that community through the kinds of things that it's selling. um, we've got sort of, a sort of food tradition we've got maybe some political, tradition, [S3: mhm ] what are the different um and not necessarily consistent with one another but the different, um, themes that come out of the, stuff that they're selling? 
S3: um, there was definitely a lot of... a lot of like racial pride, [S2: okay ] but not in any real coherent sort of way like with the t-shirts, [S2: okay ] they would have political leaders and singers and you know, all, jumbled in together without any distinction between, [S2: right ] the two. 
S2: okay so racial pride, some of which is expressed through, um, leaders. so like [S3: right ] leaders, or sort of, key personalities... [S3: mhm ] um... representing the black community. [S3: right ] or representing 
S3: you know they had Michael Jordan posters, [S2: right ] along with, Martin Luther King t-shirts and 
S2: right okay so. you want probably to take, i mean that is one category and you wanna think about what [S3: mhm ] you, and um, what it means to have, uh... to represent your community through these great heroes. [S3: uhuh ] right? um and through these_ wh- and why th- mixing the great her- the great political heroes with the great, cultural, [S3: mhm ] icons. you wanna think about that and tell me [S3: mhm ] why you think those are all mixed together. [S3: mhm ] okay i mean, for one it's, i mean it is partly just uh, you know, a t-shirt company selling lots of t-shirts but [S3: right ] it's, you know, the person who bought those t-shirts and put them all there together, [S3: mhm ] thought that those were_ those all belonged together in [S3: mhm ] some, sense so [S3: right ] why? um uh, and, i mean that's a point, where you can also think about the, um... stuff that Robin Kelly sort of talked about the kind of play, the sort of paths to, success. [S3: mhm ] in the African-American community [S3: right ] having been, um, limited to certain sort of forms, [S3: mhm ] um, so we've got you know at least in this, a couple of preachers. [S3: mhm ] um who've become great political figures and, you know musicians and sports hero and you know so [S3: mhm ] um, you can write a little bit about that, [S3: mkay ] so, okay? um now, what else though? 
S3: with the merchandise? um, 
S2: looks like you got your leaders paragraph 
S3: <LAUGH> well there wa- the, clothing and jewelry, is all kind of one category i guess. and, they had some really beautiful dresses and things, and some really cheap jewelry. <LAUGH> i mean [S2: (well) ] they had a- they 
S2: not only cheap jewelry [S3: not only ] they had some nice jewelry 
S3: they had some nice things. but, i mean there was a wide range [S2: right ] of things available. and one thing that i did notice is there were, there was a lot of stuff that was less expensive than what you would normally see at an Ann Arbor, any kind of Ann Arbor function [S2: okay ] or store [S2: right ] um... 
<S4 ENTERS> 
S4: (so listen,) do you wanna do laundry later? do you want to do laundry, around four or five? 
S2: four, would be great 
S4: i'll call you. 
S2: okay, um 
S4: sorry about that 
S3: <LAUGH> it's alright 
S2: um, where're you gonna be are you gonna be? are you gonna be on campus? 
S4: well i've got my bike so i'll go home and then i can, pick you up. but i'll be on 
S2: okay i'll call you. cuz i may be here 
S4: okay 
S2: okay 
S3: so, i dunno i don- i don't have any clear synthesizing [S2: okay ] you know picture of what [S2: okay so ] what all of this represented. 
S2: alright um, keep let's before we move to the jewelry and the... forget about the jewelry. the jewelry is, [S3: okay ] i didn't look carefully enough at sort of the iconography of the jewelry or [S3: right ] anything i mean, i think you're right that there's, it's, there was a point to have things, of a, variety of sort of cost. [S3: mhm ] so you might want to think about that, as [S3: mhm ] like one point. [S3: right ] um, but let's look more carefully at the other clothes the other um, images that are sort of on these other products that are being sold. what are the other kinds of images other ways that the community is being defined besides the black leaders one? [S3: um ] here look at your writing, it's all down there. <S3 LAUGH> it's there it's there it's there 
S3: ah... well... i mean in terms of the clothing and the hats and the scarves [S2: mhm ] they were all like African [S2: there you go ] things they weren't African-American. 
S2: okay so, we've got a kind of, connections to Africa theme. 
S3: okay. oh that was easier than i thought. 
S2: you see? <LAUGH> this is not hard. 
S3: <LAUGH> yeah definite connections to Africa 
S2: okay now, made in a number of ways so you wanna bring those together [S3: okay ] because they're um, i mean one way interestingly is connected to the leaders question Nelson Mandela is one of them [S3: mhm ] right i mean that's, that's, um not the other kind of, African heritage, point but it is [S3: right ] drawing sort of international connections in [S3: right ] the black experience. 
S3: and African, linking to Africa, with Cleopatra and Nefertiti, all the way to Nelson Mandela. 
S2: right... 
S3: my spell checker by the way did not s- find Cleopatra it wanted to put in something completely wrong <LAUGH> i thought it was interesting 
S2: um, international connections, in the p- in 
S3: in the past and the present 
S3: past and present right. i mean an- and i i i might treat them differently because i mean one is, one is about um, paralleling, black oppression internationally. [S4: right ] in the contemporary sort of era. [S4: mhm ] and the other is about constructing an African, heritage, for African-Americans. 
S3: right, and with that there were also like walking sticks and carved [S2: so ] giraffes and 
S2: right. so we've got two points the sort of, international, um... [S3: politics ] or [S3: or ] whatever i don't know how you say it unity of oppression [S3: mhm ] whatever, like the, connections [S3: mhm ] between oppression. um, and then the creating sort of African, links to sort of African history, and culture. [S3: mhm... ] so right you've got all the, differ- you've got the, Nefertiti and, you've got the past and you've got sort of, arts and craftsy stuff so. [S3: mhm ] um, alright so um, you're gonna wanna give some thought to, i mean first of all does does that kind of African connection make its way into any of the other literature of the Community Learning Post, does it not? it doesn't seem to be important in [S3: no ] any of the stuff you heard at- people talking about? 
S3: mm no 
S2: alright. um, then you need to think about why it's there i mean [S3: mhm ] it's um, it may not um, in fact what, why is it called the Community Leaning Post? [S3: i- ] what is a leaning post? 
S3: <LAUGH> you know i don't know. so- uh i don't know let me see if it explained it anywhere. i got too much junk here 
S2: cuz leaning post sounds to me like something old 
S3: yeah. yeah it does. um 
S2: <LAUGH> you know i mean maybe Southern maybe... well see if you can [S3: i dunno, yeah ] find out what a leaning post is [S3: okay ] cuz, even just that name is_ it feels, like, some symbol of uh old-time community some abou- i have no idea what it's about 
S3: the, my sense of it, is that, it's some... almost like a grandmotherly type thing. like you can come here and we will support you. 
S2: right right 
S3: literally 
S2: right
S3: in a way 
S2: yeah so um, figure out if you can what its history is you may be able to [S3: okay ] even just look on the web actually. [S3: okay ] um, okay so the Afri- i mean the African, sort of just, ever-present sort of cultural, presence [S3: mhm ] uh in terms of sort of, commodities i mean is, um, is true i think pretty frequently in African-American communities right? like [S3: right ] when people dress up they'll often dress up in nice African, [S3: mhm ] outfits um, even you know this ninety-year old woman i was, mentioning is actually the woman i've, i wrote her life history and she_ you read one of her, stories [S3: mhm ] in, the Chicago thing the one that i wrote. um, and she went to Africa once. and she felt no kinship whatsoever i mean she was just like, it was dirty, i_ it had nothing to do with me, [S3: mhm ] i'm not Af- you know, but nonetheless, [S3: mhm ] um, she wore African dresses [S3: right ] and stuff all the time. um so there's a way that that, um, those connections to a kind of African culture and presence have been fully sort of just incorporated into kind of daily life [S3: right ] in some way. um, and, into African-American culture [S3: mhm ] like, um even when they're divorced from the more political or um, uh, even explicit, um, claims of sort of historical continuity with [S3: mhm ] Africa or something um, so where some of that is clearly there with the Cleopatra and the, i mean claiming sort of, ancient, heroes. so- [S3: mhm ] sort of creating an African-American history, and culture with connections to Africa [S3: mhm ] that has been repeatedly denied. [S3: right ] um, is important. it it, it's become such a part of, um community self-definition that it doesn't have to be articulated it can just kind of [S3: right ] be, um 
S3: everyone knows what it means. it's not that 
S2: right it c- it can just kind of be there in those objects [S3: right ] um, so you wanna kinda think about that and analyze that a little bit um, okay, now what else? and this is you know th- here's a g- another here's a place where we have, um in dialogue, with outside definitions, of African-American culture. right? because it's in dialogue with a long history of academics, <LAUGH> [S3: right ] and other folks who've said African-Americans don't, have cultural connections to Africa, [S3: mhm ] and, Egypt is not black [S3: right ] African and you know [S3: right ] la-de-da. um, so uh, i mean this i- i think, is, can be a useful theme, for you to tie several sections of this together it's not gonna you know, it may become part of your thesis [S3: okay ] not purely, [S3: mhm ] but, i see a lot of the elements that you're talking about as coming together around that kind of, um, and and you might wanna think about, uh In Search of Respect as [S3: mhm ] um, som- as a book that_ and and Upscaling Downtown both, as having some places that you might be able to look for, theoretical frames for thinking about sort of community self-definition. [S3: mhm ] um, and um, and oppositional community self definition in some sense. 
S3: okay. 
<P :08> 
S2: and you wanna think i mean, as_ again back to the sort of big framing question, [S3: uhuh ] um, you wanna think about uh, thinking about the festival, as a a- in the terms that Brett Williams does his sort of uh, moment outside of, time and [S3: mhm ] normal time and space where you can kind of, um, reorder, the world [S3: right ] um, in, in a way that uh... you know, kind of challenges, overturns, [S3: mhm ] plays with, the normal order [S3: right ] right? um, so. i mean you know it's- one's pushing it a little bit to, analyze it in those terms but i think there's something true about that. [S3: mhm ] okay so, what else, other categories. 
S3: well the, respect the black man and then the protect ba- black families [S2: right ] um, the, the emphasis on, family, [S2: uhuh, okay ] was clearly there not just through, the organizations like the Leaning Post and the, um, the parents' organization, [S2: right ] but also through those t-shirts there were, paintings of black families babies [S2: right ] you know th- [S2: right ] that was definitely a recurring theme 
S2: okay great so you've got, another theme [S3: mhm ] slash paragraph [S3: mhm ] since, that's how you're gonna organize this, uh, about family. and you might wanna, um, i mean you could, talk about the parent involvement day, [S3: down there mhm ] with that paragraph instead of in a, [S3: mhm ] um, alright. uh, other, other things? oh yes. [S3: the religion? ] one other big thing. [S3: or ] well, the, yeah the religion um, but you, you might wanna include the just the Degas ballerinas [S3: right, right ] too i mean cuz in a way they do kind of go together i mean this is, taking images that are, i mean, okay. i mean for the in the images one i mean it's_ what is it doing? 
S3: well it's, it's appropriating white images and making them black. 
S2: mhm. so right in your words appropriating... white images and making them black... why...? 
S3: uh, why? <LAUGH> i think that that's also a direct you know... speaking to the, the popular opinion that blacks don't have culture. 
S2: okay right. so i mean especially in a way the, i mean this is this is high culture [S3: right right ] Degas is high culture [S3: right ] right? we're not talking folk culture [S3: mhm ] we're talking high culture. right so it's kind of appropriating high culture. oh but what about the religious ones? i mean cuz the Last Supper, and there were all these, African-American Jesuses and stuff there 
S3: right lots of them <LAUGH> 
S2: so? 
S3: um, ap- takin- appropriating Christianity as a black, religion. 
S2: right... yeah. i mean, i mean obviously the the prevalence of, religious imagery i mean the church is really, important. <LAUGH> [S3: right right. ] um, and lots of African-American churches have, white blue eyed Jesuses in them i mean, [S3: right ] probably decreasingly. [S3: mhm ] um but in the old days they definitely did... um, so what does it mean i mean so the church is really important, in, African-American life [S3: mhm ] or, for many people, um, and, the um... so what does it mean then within that sort of context, to emphasize the sort of black Jesus. [S3: i think it's ] it's not just about impropriating (sic) religion right because i mean, [S3: right ] you got religion 
S3: i think it's... kind of an empowerment thing. [S2: uhuh, okay ] that this religion was no- was in a way forced upon_ i mean [S2: okay ] not in a way it was totally forced upon them, [S2: uhuh ] but yet they've taken it and made it their own. [S2: okay ] that this is not just, them bowing to the white man's religion. 
S2: okay right. yeah. i think that's a very good point. um, i mean it's also making a kind of <P :06> i mean it's connecting in some sense religion and politics. um, [S3: yeah ] and saying uh, you know, last time i checked like, God wasn't black or white and [S3: right, right ] neither you know Jesus wasn't, um <P :07> so it's, it serves as a sort of cri- in and of itself like i mean since, so many representations of God and Jesus are white [S3: mhm ] um the, kind of shock value of a black Jesus, [S3: right ] serves as a critique of sort of mainstream, [S3: right, right ] religion right? i mean it reminds people that Jesus is always represented as white, [S3: right ] and that that's weird <LAUGH> [S3: right right ] okay so um, so i think both those points are important. the kind of empowerment and critique. um, good now other uh <P :05> other issues. other, top- other things we haven't, [S3: uh ] covered in [S3: hm hm hm ] terms of, um [S3: in terms of ] themes like of [S3: at the festival? ] yeah <P :05> 
S3: i think we covered, let me find the page that's got the, actual notes <LOOKING THROUGH NOTES> 
S2: i mean, i think that i think that's pretty good 
S3: i think that that's just about it 
S2: okay, good. um, so what you need to do now is kind of, pull, and this might be a good section for you to work on first since you've [S3: mhm ] got, you've got a lot of the material there [S3: right ] pull that into an argument, [S3: right ] about what claims the festival is making what sort of [S3: right ] community_ what ways is it representing a black community. [S3: mhm ] um, and in what ways is that in dialogue with, in critique of in, you know whatever resistance to, outside definitions of [S3: okay ] African- American culture. now um <P :08> yeah uh now okay. now i don't know how we're gonna fit, this, part of your argument which i 
S3: in with everything else <LAUGH> 
S2: in with everything else now i i'm not saying you can't i [S3: mhm ] don't think that's true at all. um, i just think that now it is not self-evident how you're going to, [S3: mhm ] um, i mean here i mean here is something that this is also, so there's a kind of way that, African-American women, are actively, forming a community, right? [S3: right ] community and partly through this festival. [S3: mhm ] um... so i mean in a way that is a pretty good start of, a thesis. [S3: mhm ] um, and when you start to define how that community is defined, through these objects etcetera [S3: mhm ] um, you'll be, um one step towards sort of, how they're trying to form a community [S3: mhm ] and why. now i mean, now the why question_ and how you wanna organize this in a big sense, [S3: mhm ] i dunno i mean you could, do, some of this work of like the history of the organization and, what it does, um, i mean have you gotten a sense of what it <READING> it offers mentoring tutoring and scholarships to </READING> 
S3: there [S2: to- yeah ] as far as i can tell is no specific information anywhere <LAUGH> on what [S2: okay ] what exactly they do and each, each article that i've read about them says something slightly [S2: different uhuh ] slightly different and equally vague. so, i don't know 
S2: do we know if, do we know if it has any, outside funding or if it's just a [S3: don't know ] kind of volunteer organization? 
S3: don't know 
S2: don't know. we just don't know. alright <S3 LAUGH> that's okay. um, we do know though that it, now it was founded, for affordable housing that's, that's interesting um... and where was it_ now in, some of the conversati- in the conversation you had with the woman [S3: mhm ] is that where she was talking about gangs? where did the sort of gangs thing come up? 
S3: that's in the, that's in the booklet [S2: okay ] that she had um, she wrote herself, i don't remember if it was an article quoting her 
S2: so it is targeted mostly towards children though i mean that's [S3: yes ] the kind of consistent thing [S3: yes ] across. alright 
S3: um... well this is, an article that was published in the Ann Arbor News, with an, interview with her and it says <READING> it's time to give our al- kids an alternative i wanna say you don't need gangs you've got your community right here </READING> [S2: right right ] and there was another similar, [S2: okay ] quote somewhere else 
S2: um... a good th- a good thing for you to think about in framing the whole thing and maybe this is something you wanna do first and then go into the details so like, [S3: mhm ] the question is in some sense why, [S3: mhm ] um are these sort of intentional um, for- 
<BREAK IN RECORDING> 
S3: nineteen eighty-three and nineteen eighty or nineteen <BREAK IN RECORDING> to the chi- children issue [S2: yeah ] and i don't know. [S2: yeah ] um 
S2: me either but, so n- you know that a shift happened sometime 
S3: a shift happened sometime, um... i think, definitely 
<BREAK IN RECORDING> 
S2: what you said about [S3: right ] your suburb they're gonna invade. [S3: right ] um, okay so, partly gangs, why else? [S3: um ] why else maybe (xx?) 
S3: i have a suspicion that they kind of just gave up on the <LAUGH> affordable housing thing [S2: for ex-offenders ] that, that housing oh i'm sorry c- housing costs went, a- i mean between nineteen eighty-three and now [S2: okay ] have just gone up so much, that it's almost an unfightable battle... and, mentori- tutoring children, is always something that can be done. [S2: mhm ] that is an a- definitely an achievable goal. 
S2: right. it does turn out to be sort of interesting that they gave up on the housing thing, um, given that the other reason_ what's the oth- okay so we- we'll keep going. alright so, um, you mentioned that this is not, this is not a positive reason for the shift [S3: right ] it's just a kind of, um, increased housing costs. okay, other reasons. why focusing on children now think big. think about sort of big stories we've told in the class. and big stories about sort of what's sort of happening to African-Americans in Ann Arbor in the present as well. 
S3: think big. <SS LAUGH> 
S2: what's happening to children over the last, ten years? 
S3: they've become increasingly, vilified 
S2: okay... alright vilified children uhuh 
S3: and schools 
S2: that's tied to gangs, uhuh 
S3: and schools are, increasingly underfunded, [S2: mhm ] and doing a a bad job of what they're supposed to be doing. 
S2: okay, and there's, they're, seems like they're, fairly focused on the education. 
S3: right right one of the, one of the articles described them specifically as um, a group that works with the school system. [S2: okay ] meaning that that i think they work pretty closely with the public schools 
S2: okay great. so, schools underfunded they are in a way <BREAK IN RECORDING> okay. that's a good reason. why else? 
S3: um, is there more single parent families? 
S2: there is. 
S3: um, there, 
S2: [S2: sort of, yeah ] 
S3: th- th- the eg- actually specifically says that they target, [S2: single parent ] children with, [S2: okay ] absent fathers [S2: okay ] mostly is what that means, um 
S2: right. okay so increase in single-parent families. just the simple, increase in poverty [S3: right ] right? i mean kids are poorer than they've ever [S3: right ] been. so, here's a place um you can talk about, some of the bigger economic shifts [S3: mhm ] and how they've impacted, children. [S3: right ] and how this, and, how they've impacted children and how, um, schools, at the same time have kind of cut back on, um, or money for schools have been cut back because of, a variety of political, um, responses, uh, and so this organization is in some sense trying to f- position itself, to help people [S3: kind of as a ] that have been affected by this 
S3: kind of as a buffer or 
S2: yeah yeah, um that have been affected by these sort of big economic transformations 
S3: mhm, and also the current teenage population is huge. [S2: right. so ] and that's even more [S4: the current ] recent than [S2: yeah ] the last ten years. 
S2: yeah the current even preteen [S3: mhm ] population is huge not the teen population yet. um, it's just starting to grow uh, yeah so th- i think those are all very good points. um, so, you wanna take every opportunity you have to, look big [S3: right right ] see what i mean? [S3: mhm ] okay. other reason_ okay so that's, these are good reasons that they're starting to focus on children so that's gonna be sort of, one of the themes as you're sort of setting this up [S3: mhm ] and you need to think about, okay if they're focusing most of their activities on children, um, how do they maybe think that the, um festival, connects to that mission of what, how does the festival connect to their mission of helping children? 
S3: i think that they, are ex- they are explicitly saying that they want to show children, that there is an African-American community. that [S2: right ] this isn't so much for adults to feel the sense of community but more so for children to. 
S2: okay right. so i mean that's a way you then bring these things [S3: okay ] together. um, now, the other reason that may be important and that this festival may have started when it did not the focus on children, um is what? why are they representing the Af- a kind of coherent African-American community to us now in Ann Arbor...? [S3: uh <LAUGH> ] you know this. because [S3: because- ] of gentrification, right? 
S3: oh okay 
S2: um, so you need to be thinking about, um, this festival and this organization, um representing this community, in a moment of displacement. now you've [S3: right ] got something written about that which i thought was interesting. um, um, and i i'm not sure how you're gonna wanna tie this in, [S3: mhm ] but, um as you're telling the sort of, i mean it- it's fine to tell us a bit of a history of the African-American community in Ann [S3: mhm ] Arbor but you've gotta figure out of, a way to make it serve your argument. [S3: right ] and thinking about sort of um, both_ i mean here's, um... so thinking about uh, number one why, for blacks is the nature of community, racial? um... to some degree it's because of the stuff you're talking about right? i mean community becomes, racial partly because 
S3: when you can't live any- when 
S2: right when [S3: that's ] i mean that's who you live with 
S3: necessarily your community <LAUGH> 
S2: um, so i mean that's in in part, African-Americ- their [S3: mhm ] their i mean they_ like we're talking about sort of racial cultures i mean there exists an African-American culture, [S3: right ] um, which isn't singular which is multiple la-de-da we can't draw boundaries around culture, but you know that is, um, and that always is in dialogue and in interaction with [S3: mhm ] broader, i mean and influences in j- gi-normous (sic) [S3: mhm ] <LAUGH> um degree um, you know, mainstream popular culture but, i mean that kind of, distinct, communit- culture community whatever, exists um in part because of kind of an incredible history of segregation [S3: mhm ] right so you've you've, um culture is formed through interactions with people. <LAUGH> [S3: right ] um, so <P :05> um, here's what i thought was interesting that might let you, um, draw this kind of history together so we've [S3: mhm ] got a kind of, history of sort of segregation in Ann Arbor, [S3: mhm ] um, and sort of, an African-American community, growing up in that context. [S3: mhm ] now you wanna maybe look at <P :05> if any of those um, if any of these like histories [S3: uhuh ] uh, li- sort of life histories, do any of them sort of describe growing up in the community, in the African- [S3: um ] American community in Ann Arbor? [S2: hm ] and describe it in [S3: toward the back ] anyways? or, um... 
S3: i don't remember. i'll have to look through 'em again 
S2: yeah so i mean look through it again and see if there are, um, ways that the community is described, [S3: mhm ] um, that are gonna be useful for you, in um, talking about what that, what, how people are remembering that old African community where [S3: right ] everyone lived together, [S2: mhm ] in peace harmony la-de-da i mean [S3: yeah ] you know they're g- they're gonna be kind of idealized, [S3: right ] memories of these segregated black communities. [S3: mhm ] um, so see if you can try to, not just tell us, um, that it's segregated but what the kind of memories of it are if if [S3: right ] there's any material. so you know, memories of old-time c- community. [S3: okay ] um... now. i think this question here is very interesting. <READING> the literature of the Community Learning Post seems to suggest that the black community was somehow dispersed by outside forces. </READING> in what way does it suggest that? [S3: the- ] you want... if you've got, backing for this you want a paragraph for it. [S3: okay ] because this is a way you can introduce, [S3: mhm ] how the gentrification is being understood and this as a response to the gentrification [S3: right ] in some sense. 
S3: i guess it's just that there's, there's a sense of well it used to, you know it used to be that we all lived together and every- and everything was fine but now we don't even know each other. 
S2: okay. okay. 
S3: and so, [S2: interesting, uhuh ] i mean i, they don't come ou- obviously don't come out and say like we got busted up by the [S2: yeah ] white people moving in but it- 
S2: well maybe not only that right? um, <READING> we used to live together and now we don't know each other </READING>
S3: i mean part of it is that, that area, got gentrified and people [S2: right ] couldn't afford to live there [S2: right ] part of it is that people, black_ African-Americans actively wanted to, [S2: right ] move into other areas of the city... and it [S2: right ] was never, a huge community so [S2: right ] some of it is just that, their children moved out and the [S2: right ] older people died and new African-American people moved in who didn't [S2: who don't, right ] have any ties to, [S2: right ] and that's the other thing that's interesting is they're trying to pull, to say that this is the African-American community and, you know this was the historic, Ann Arbor [S2: right ] you know this is like our home, and yet there are a lot of people who, that's_ [S2: right ] who never h- knew anyone who lived there and who never lived there and [S2: right ] their grandparents didn't live there i mean, [S2: right ] that that it's purely racial, [S2: right ] and it has nothing to do with how long you've lived in Ann Arbor or anything like that 
S2: right right right right right. um... yeah... well i think that's something important to think about um... in the context um... of a much more mobile society [S3: mhm ] i mean and this is you know true, everywhere right? [S3: mhm ] for all people um, but maybe especially, for African-Americans who have gained a a certain amount of_ or for middle-class African-Americans, um who've gained a certain amount of mobility [S3: mhm ] to live in, more neighborhoods that they want [S3: mhm ] um, so then how do you, create, or maintain, sort of community ties [S3: mhm ] of of any kind i [S3: mhm ] mean um, and so this festival is one way to kind of make, to reinvigorate a kind of sense of African-American identity and community sort of solidarity, um, when there isn't, at least in Ann Arbor, such segregated, [S3: right ] African-American, neighborhoods where everyone must live together [S3: mhm ] um, so i think that's an important point that you wanna sort of pull out [S3: mkay ] um, so one is there's some dispersion by gentrification [S3: mhm ] you wanna think about that and the other is sort of mobile society um... uh how, sense of sort of African-American community identity, is, created or, maintained, in that context when people are not, all living beside each other. okay, um... good. i mean some of this though i don- i think it's less relevant in Ann Arbor um but some of this in other_ in some of the other neighborhoods that we've read is also, communities or or just sense of sort of community identity is disrupted by fear right? [S3: mhm, right ] um, so i don't know if you see that in any of this literature. you don't really feel it at [S3: yeah ] th- the festival or in [S3: yeah ] Ann Arbor in some, real ways it's just a very different community. um, good. uh, what other pieces of this do we have, that we don't, haven't talked about? right sort of history of Ann Arbor. um... 
S3: it's pretty, [S2: yeah ] straightforward <LAUGH> i mean there's not 
S2: um, does this help you start to think about sort of, an argument and a frame?
S3: yeah. yeah. to start to. it's gonna be hard 
S2: i mean i think i think that most i mean, i think that if you pull together this stuff you have an argument and a frame i mean [S3: yeah ] without having to like, have some incredible new insights [S3: right <LAUGH> ] that, um that we haven't just already talked about. [S3: right. yeah ] um, so, uh, i suppose i would do some work pulling this part togeth- uh, anyway this part together [S3: uhuh ] into an argument about sort of how it's representing the community first. and then i'd go back um, to your sort of, beginning which i don't know what your beginning is 
S3: this, was the beginning 
S2: right yeah okay so here's, um, right. so that is the beginning of your, [S3: mhm ] introduction and that's cool. um, you might wanna sort of expand it a little bit thinking about these sort of themes. [S3: uhuh ] um cuz those are the things that are gonna enable you to tie it to broader readings i mean that's the, third thing that you mustn't forget to do you're [S3: right, right ] good on the kind of details, um, and uh, so you need to be thinking about tying to other [S3: right ] readings and tying to those sort of broader themes which you know you've got some here. um so, your second section could be, um, about the Community Leaning Post in some sense, but i think you wanna do that through an kind of argument about why, um, the community needs to be represented, [S3: uhuh ] as a coherent community now, [S3: mhm ] and why the focus on children. so thematically as opposed to kind of a history of the organization 
S3: right okay, okay 
S2: okay? does that help? [S3: yeah ] no panicking <S3 LAUGH> it's gonna be fine. and you have plenty of information don't go looking for more information 
S3: yeah i've got 
S2: um, and you didn't think you were going to so, [S3: yeah ] um, uh so yeah. i mean i think t- i think_ can you work on this tonight? [S3: yeah ] i think that tonight you could actually, um go to bed with the, downtown festival section, in decent shape, [S3: mhm ] and with a start on, laying out these_ this kind of [S3: mhm ] structure and, okay maybe this'll be the argument sort of [S3: right right ] um and that way you've got lots of days to finish it. 
S3: right. cool 
S2: okay? 
S3: lemme, (oh i didn't) 
S2: i look forward to reading it 
S3: lemme give you my homework, before i forget. 
S2: oh yes give me your homework 
S3: and i thought you might find this amusing so i printed it out. from The Onion <LAUGH> 
S2: The Onion? 
S3: yeah it's a, [S2: oh ] website that's like a parody of 
S2: oh [S3: newspaper ] it's a, it's a um, it's also a news- not a newspaper but it's a magazine [S3: yeah, mhm ] sort of it's very funny, um, thanks i will definitely read it <LAUGH> um 
S3: but yeah it in es- especially in light of, last night's uh [S2: look at that ] House vote. <LAUGH> [S2: you ] you heard that they, voted to, go ahead and let every schoolhouse put the Ten Commandments up on the wall? 
S2: i didn't hear that 
S3: that was like a last minute amendment. the r- Republican representa- 
S2: wait for what bill did they put that on? 
S3: on the su- same juvenile crime bill 
S2: oh my god 
S3: <LAUGH> they just slapped it on Republican from of course Alabama, said well, what we need to do is put the Ten Commandments on the w- let schools put the Ten 
S2: and then kids won't commit any crimes 
S3: because then they'll know it's bad because it'll say right up there <LAUGH> 
S2: well i mean you know that i personally am hoping for the death of this juvenile justice bill because i think it's an absolute disaster area [S3: it's ] um, so i, i hope that that helps kill it 
S3: but yeah i guess it went on, uh, wel- into the early morning everyone just putting amendments on this thing. every knee-jerk reaction they could possibly think of <LAUGH> just slap it on there 
S2: i mean you know i don't think that there's any particularly, simple, coherent answer we can craft to the problem of juvenile crime but like 
S3: that ain't it <LAUGH> 
S2: anyway. um, good 
S3: well, yeah. i guess i can take my mic off 
S2: well, uh thanks for your, you know participation in class and everything 
S3: you're [S2: um ] welcome. it was a great class. i really 
S2: good yeah. i really enjoyed it so, and you were a great student in it so 
S3: well thank [S2: um ] you. i may contact you at some point for a recommendation 
S2: oh you should absolutely feel free to i'll be on that email forever [S3: okay ] and ever and ever 
S3: and i didn't get a chance to print out a course guide but i think it_ if like when i've narrowed it down to a few i'll probably email you and a- 
S2: email me yeah [S3: ask your advice ] and you know let me just actually give you a list of, um, professors that i, really like in anthropology. um, he's hard as, he's really hard. [S3: mhm ] but i think he's um, one of the smartest men i've ever met. um, and a good person like a generally really good person. um 
S3: wait, you're gonna need to keep this so why don't you write it on this? <LAUGH> 
S2: oh yeah good point. um, okay so uh Roberto Aguillar, um... um i've heard good thing- see a lot of my professors are gone now. um i've heard good things about um, what the hell's her name? alright sh- Christine, Green, who studies Eastern Europe, [S3: mhm ] is supposed to be a good professor, and um Elizabeth Smith. um i don't, have no idea what undergraduate courses they teach. um... who else am i forgetting...? Lynne Hartman is really smart but, her classes can be fantastic but i have no idea what she's like as an undergraduate teacher i think she might not be a very good undergraduate [S3: yeah ] teacher. um... so, yeah 
S3: (alright, and so,) that'll help me. um (i have to) 
S2: yeah email me when you're thinking about it and i'll [S3: okay ] i can let you know 
S3: yeah cuz i have to, see an academic advisor. but, i wanted to wait till grades are in cuz hopefully that'll make me look better <LAUGH> 
S2: you should um, you know who you should s- do you have an academic advisor who [S3: no ] you know? you should go see um, uh Linda Donohue, [S3: Linda Donohue ] she, used to, she's, was in my cohort in the American Culture Program she's really great [S3: okay ] um, and uh, she, probably actually knows about a lot of cool classes because she's been a, student here so she knows professors [S3: oh okay ] and stuff. so i'd go see her 
S3: alright [S2: okay? ] well thank you very much 
S2: no problem 
S3: and uh, you'll get my paper, and hopefully it'll be good. 
S2: i'm [S3: oh ] sure it'll be good. 
S3: (there you go.) (xx) 
S2: (put) the little_ like over there somewhere and i (trust i- your judgment) 
S3: i put it in the 
S2: okay 
<P :06> 
S2: oh look. i don't get a break. <S3 LAUGH> um, how do you know Tom Nelson? 
<P :14> <BREAK IN RECORDING> <P :25> 
S5: oh, sign your initials. i have to sign my initials? 
S2: oh, goodness i didn't do that <LAUGH> okay <S5 LAUGH> is a check sufficient or? 
R1: i think a check'll do it <LAUGH> 
S2: okay 
S5: alright cool... sure. <S2 LAUGH> uhuh 
S2: there's no videotape 
S5: hm?
S2: there's no videotape 
S5: yeah. well, anyway if there were i would still allow it <LAUGH> [S2: yeah ] <LAUGH> alright. this is it? 
S2: just this yeah 
S5: this part? 
S2: yeah. so they can sort us into categories 
S5: mm. <LAUGH> uh [S2: alright? ] that's it. alright well, i'm actually um, unfortunately i don't have that much to [S2: okay that's alright ] actually talk about but, i have, i think i have thesis, [S2: okay ] which um, i wa- i kinda, took a st- a little step back, and just kinda looked at like the big [S2: okay ] picture and um, i basically realized that what Focus Hope tries to do, [S2: mhm ] is bring Detroit up to, New York's level of where, they're in like the mainstre- i mean, they l- you know i- like that, like the first, Sugrue ari- ar- article said they were [S2: uhuh ] the big boom town and [S2: right ] and that uh, that's what New York is. [S2: right ] and that they're trying to, come back to that, level and that they're not trying to like, because i did actually interview, Focus Hope [S2: uhuh ] interviewed um, [S2: good ] a guy named John Armstrong who is, who's been there since it, [S2: oh that's great ] began, and yeah and so i asked him a lot about uh, about what their plans were [S2: uhuh ] how he'd sees, the th- you know all all of Detroit's problems and things like that, and i also in- interviewed one of the, counselors that works hand-in- hand [S2: cool ] with all, all the students. um, and, he kinda stressed the point that they're not trying to like, help everybody. [S2: right ] and that there's no simple s- solution but [S2: right ] they're just trying to get, the people that can and that and that want to [S2: uhuh ] in into the mainstream. [S2: right ] and, see cuz first i thought that, Project Renewal was more [S2: uhuh ] f- first step, and then Focus Hope was the next step but now [S2: uhuh ] i'm kind of seeing the reverse. 
S2: okay. [S5: because ] i- in what way? 
S5: in the way that... i think first, um... if, if you help all the homeless [S2: mhm ] drug addicted people, [S2: mhm ] and you get them, clean [S2: mhm ] and you get them off off the streets [S2: mhm ] but then there's nowhere else for them to to to go above that if, you don't kinda, deal with the whole problem of how there are no jobs 
S2: the economic sort of [S5: yeah ] question right right. [S5: um ] yeah, yeah i mean i think i think you're right in thinking about, the way that they're different. i'm not sure it's gonna to be useful to you to think about whether one's first step or second step 
S5: right yeah [S2: um ] yeah i'm, i probably [S2: um ] wasn't gonna write about that but 
S2: uh but i think you're right that they're um, and and the the point you made about the Focus Hope in Detroit um, is interesting that in a way the um, what they're doing for the residents is, um, in bringing them into sort of the economic mainstream and in fact back to the factory working um that used to be the center of Detroit, um, is also an attempt to bring Detroit back to that, same kind of, [S5: mhm ] um, economic force that it used to be so i think that's an interesting point um, now they they may have a problem. <LAUGH> because um... in that it is tied to sort of the automotive industry etcetera um, it is, it's very consciously sort of looking to Detroit's past and trying to reconstruct a future, yes. go ahead 
S5: but they have m- new plans that they've been w- working on internet [S2: good, good ] network and all that stuff 
S2: great okay good 
S5: sorry to cut you off there <LAUGH>
S2: 'm'm. no i think that's fantastic um, so they're they're aware of that kind of limitation of the, [S5: mhm ] of banking Detroit's future on, um the auto industry [S5: yeah ] which is i think very important. um, good uh, what else? [S5: well, ] i mean have you thought_ he- here's th- here's the other thing i mean i think it's very important that when you_ and i, wrote this all over your little, thing [S5: mhm ] that when you're talking about these two organizations, you think about them in the, political economic historical context of the two cities now you've, tha- you're doing that with that Detroit, point i mean i think that's [S5: mhm ] that's really good. um, what about the question of the, homelessness in New York? 
S5: yeah um, i haven't interviewed Ariel yet [S2: okay ] um, i haven't gotten a hold of her we've been playing phone tag for a week, but um 
S2: that's your sister? 
S5: yeah. um, so i don't really know that much about that right now um 
S2: yeah you do 
S5: well i do from, kinda 
S2: okay well you're right you don't you don't know, what she's gonna say and you [S5: yeah ] don't know sort of where they're looking at and what_ um, um but what do you know already? 
S5: i know that, it is, i mean, first of all it's a huge problem in in in New York. there's tons of money spent trying_ you know for, everything from soup kitchens [S2: right ] to, welfare to, [S2: right ] everything and uh, and, a big thing is that, homelessness more than the actual problem of homelessness is um, it, kinda gives the city a bad name. [S2: mhm ] in that like they don't care about their, citizens and things like that [S2: mhm ] and the people that are in it um 
S2: what other ways do they give the city a bad name? i think that's a really important point 
S5: what, what other ways? 
S2: what other ways? yeah 
S5: um, it uh, home- homelessness adds to the to crime a lot um, adds to, desperation and more mental ill- ill- [S2: right ] illness and, [S2: right ] ho- and things like that 
S2: well right. yeah i mean, homelessness definitely, um, exacerbates all those kinds of problems i think that's right. um, but homelessness also i mean is a great example of just, what adds to the kind of fear of cities or sort of the sense that cities are just out of control. [S5: mhm ] right and [S5: yeah ] and, a lot of cities' number one priority, um, is to like just get the homeless to be less visible in a way even um just [S5: yeah ] because, it makes people, either afraid or annoyed or, whatever like when they come to the city, to be harassed by homeless people right? so it becomes a, political liability i mean like the mayor may lose his election in San Francisco becau- over homeless issues [S5: oh really ] in the next election not only homeless but, um, uh, because pe- because it just, it becomes a kin- a kind of liability [S5: mhm ] um, so uh, right. go ahead 
S5: let me ask you this. [S2: mhm ] um 
S2: why is homelessness such a big problem in New York? sorry to interrupt you 
S5: why is it, [S2: yeah ] such a big problem in New York? because it's, it's one of the problems that, it seems that nothing can be done. so, i i mean s- it's 
S2: well, what, why...? homelessness is not a big problem in Detroit. [S5: right ] why not? 
S5: cuz there're not many people there's just overpopulation in in New York part of it, i d- i think 
S2: mkay. mm that's half the que- half the question, um, there's not_ overpopulation, is kind of a strange question i mean New York is alrea- is overpop- i mean New York is like built up, ten twenty stories whatever <S5 LAUGH> um, but, why are there not homeless people in Detroit? i mean there's some probably but... it's a really simple answer. not a hard answer. <S5 LAUGH> housing costs nothing. [S5: hm ] nothing [S5: oh so ] and i'm not joking nothing. [S5: okay ] how much does housing cost in New York? 
S5: too much <LAUGH> 
S2: i mean [S5: way too much ] not anything that any like even, normally lower middle-class person can pay 
S5: no way [S2: right? ] not in Manhattan. yeah 
S2: i mean, so that's like, and and that actually that Bronx article may be useful for you in a way because [S5: yeah ] partly because, of the homeless problem. and the and the general problem of, low income housing, the city made the, very, sensible decision to, start investing lots of money in, low and middle-income housing so that_ partly to get homeless people off the streets um [S5: mhm ] and uh, and create houses that you know even if they were, you know even if, you can't solve the problem of sort of mental illnessness (sic) and stuff, through building housing, [S5: right ] if somebody gets an S-S-I check, and can afford with that S-S-I check, to pay for, a cheap apartment, then you've got somebody who's got a life i mean wheth- you know 
S5: mhm they have like a home and [S2: right ] yeah [S2: um ] um, there've uh, there're a couple homeless people who i've, spoken to here [S2: uhuh ] um, and i think, i'm gonna interview them about uh, just about, how they see, [S2: uhuh ] home- uh home- homelessness how they see it as as a problem just to get the other view [S2: that'd be interesting, yeah ] i dunno, yeah i mean i just thought it'd be 
S2: and you could also ask them sort of what social services, work for them 
S5: one one thing that they said <S2 SNEEZE> here is that um, <SNEEZE S2> bless you. is that homeless shelters here, um, they play, favorites [S2: uhuh ] cuz you're not sup- i think you're not supposed to be in it for more than ninety days [S2: mhm ] and there are people that've been in there six years [S2: right ] and so, there're no beds for, these guys, [S2: huh ] and so, i dunno i just [S2: right ] uh, i dunno. [S2: yeah ] just kinda, twisted that it's like that but [S2: that's interesting ] um, so the thesis i think, [S2: okay ] is gonna be... something uhh hang on, i had it in my head when i was ts- sitting in the chair over there [S2: okay ] um 
S2: it'll come back 
S5: yeah basically that 
S2: write it down <LAUGH> 
S5: yeah that's probably a good idea <LAUGH> um, [S2: um, here you go... ] lemme get my thoughts um, see cuz we've, like a possible thesis'd be_ we've had is_ but it's still kind of vague well_ is that, um, seeing as Focus Hope is in Detroit and then Project Re- [S2: uhuh ] Renewal is in New York that shows the major problems of, each individual city 
S2: okay, right. or, okay lemme help you reformulate that into a kind of academic thesis. um, something like um, cuz, cuz you wanna think like we've done in this class sort of repeatedly about, these organizations as both, um their resp- they look the way they do in part because of the kinds of problems they're trying to respond to right? um, uh, but, they don't themselves sort of, create those problems <LAUGH> right like in some way [S5: mhm ] so you you might wanna say that, in order to understand um, the, programs and sort of missions of, these two organizations, [S5: mhm ] we have to understand them within the context of, the, you know political and economic situations in these two cities. right? [S5: mhm ] so i think that's, um, a fine, beginning of a thesis statement. [S5: mhm ] um <P :06> and and maybe in addition to it of of these two cities and of sort of the nation as a whole at this particular moment right that lets you like look, broader. [S5: yeah ] um because there're things that, um, these cities have in common, and that the, populations that they're trying to help have in common as well [S5: mhm ] um, so, i mean that seems to me as a good start. now... what else, what are your other thoughts about sort of the thesis and how your argument would go as it goes through? 
S5: well i, i had some ideas i mean one was to kind of focus more on, the actual mission statements, and just, do a lot about that um, but then i thought that shouldn't be the f- the focus point but it should be just kind of in, you know [S2: uhuh ] i, it, will be in there but not as like the main point [S2: right ] um 
S2: i think i agree with you there because, [S5: it's ] mission statements, are generally too vague to, um, i mean i think they're important to analyze and especially the Focus Hope one which is, the one i remember, [S5: mhm ] um, it was interesting because it it is explicitly trying to bring, you know city and suburb together and like, through sort of service solve those, kind of big divides that have created the, disaster that Detroit is. <SS LAUGH> um, so yeah so i think it's important to look at them but i wouldn't just stick, only with them 
S5: right, um, i uh, i dunno i mean, like, it just seems that Ne- that New York and Detroit are, like they're both major, cities and Detroit during its heyday, is more comparable to New York now than, [S2: uhuh ] Detroit is now to [S2: uhuh ] New York [S2: uhuh ] and uh 
S2: you know who you need to think about, to think about New York and Detroit? and i can't remember if i told you this before is Saskia Sassens. Detroit is a global city. [S5: mhm ] it is the kind of city she's talking about. um, mm in that whole book that we only read a couple chapters from. [S5: right ] um, and i don't know if you remember but in that chapter she talks about how, um these global cities, um, have become, [S5: oh sorry ] centers that are in a way more connected to each other, irregardless of like, national boundaries, [S5: mhm ] than to, other cities in their own, country. and, that cities who have not become global cities, like Detroit, um, have lost the sort of, a lot of their economic functions and have, and find themselves_ i mean Detroit has a, particular history that's not only caused by this kind of economic change as we, learned but, um, Detroit is that kind of newly marginalized urban center um, [S5: mhm ] so she might help you, put those two cities like into connection with each other in the contemporary, moment. you see what i mean? 
S5: mhm. <WRITING> so should become... okay um, hm. alright... i think, i can work with this. [S2: okay ] definitely 
S2: now i've got, one caveat. um, i think this is a start for a thesis, right? [S5: mhm ] i don't think this can be your, the whole thing. so, as you start to_ but i think it's a fine place to start. [S5: mhm ] um, start to work through these arguments, about um, how we need to understand, these organizations within their, contexts in these two, d- very different cities, which you may be able to frame as a whole, with Sassens's argument right? [S5: mhm ] um, and then, after you've kind of worked through that to some degree, um, and you know incorporated, your analysis of the sort of mission statements etcetera you need to be thinking about um... the economic context of these two cities, doesn't determine, what these organizations are gonna do. right? [S5: mhm ] i mean it sort of creates a set of problems, that these organizations are trying to respond to. right? [S5: right ] but they've got significant choices about, how they're gonna respond to them. [S5: mhm ] so once you lay out sort of... what's, in in a way we've got a, structure and agency issue here right? [S5: mhm ] the way like the kind of, the structural context of these organizations, and the problems they're trying to respond to and how they're different and, um, um and how their mission statements and their organizations try to respond to them you wanna sort of, analyze, um, both like why they've made the choices that they've made, [S5: mhm ] um, and, what the limitations of those choices are. right? so i mean thinking about the the, film we saw today both of these organizations, have really different ways of addressing problems, than, Dudley Street. [S5: yeah ] um, there's not one way to do it right? um, but it's not that strategy it's a very different strategy, um 
S5: yeah, i mean it's it's, it's a very different strategy i think probably because, i mean they're they're two very different things in the sense that, Dudley Street, was, people that lived in like a small area [S2: right ] wanted to completely fix that while this is organization trying to_ or n- but but they're not trying to fix a whole city cuz they cuz they know that they can't 
S2: right. but they are_ i mean you're right they're focused more on a sort of economic issue less on a sort of neighborhood housing issue at least [S5: mhm ] in the Detroit case. um, i mean one question to always ask yourself, um, is, and i've asked you this several times is, what are the implications of, once you've sort of analyzed their programs and how they're sort of, situated in this political and economic context, how um, how do their programs analyze, the problems that [S5: right ] they're addressed to solve right and here's the reason i ask you this question all the time. is there's a tendency in social service agencies, and i think it's probably true both of Focus Hope, and of, the other organization to some degree, [S5: hm ] um, to solve problems by solving individual problems. right? [S5: mhm ] um, and that's important. i'm not saying that's a bad thing. but, if, we don't think that the problems are, caused at the level of individual behavior, um then an- then solutions that are addressed, to individual behavior or education or whatever, are fundamentally limited. <LAUGH> [S5: yeah ] um... so yo- you just wanna think about that and um, and you know, Bourgois obviously talks about that in his book um, [S5: yeah ] and, you wanna think ab- think about how these organizations may in fact struggle to, maintain an analysis and Focus Hope might be a good example cuz it, since it's about economics, it may be trying to kind of, help individuals while maintaining a focus on sort of, the economic history and structure of Detroit, [S5: right ] um, ditto the_ in New York i mean they may talk a lot about um, the housing problem, a- but still focus, but still spend most of their energy on, um, dealing with, the addiction and stuff of of homeless folks which, you know according to someone like Bourgois would say it's a symptom of a sort of, problem of social marginialization it's not the problem in and of itself, [S5: mhm ] so you gotta deal with that question um 
S5: yeah. i, i actually asked, Focus [S2: uhuh ] Hope uh guy that, and, it seemed as though the, counselor was more, i don't wanna say honest but, almost down to earth as far as the organization goes because, like she works with these [S2: uhuh ] w- with these people and, you know she's the one that when they go out get and get a job they come back and [S2: right ] and they say, this is how how how how much money i [S2: right ] i now have and i now make, and he's 
S2: less a spokesperson, right 
S5: yeah. and and he was kinda, promoting it, [S2: right ] a little too much which is [S2: that's his job ] yeah i mean 
S2: they gotta do that or they don't get any money 
S5: yeah <LAUGH> um, but uh, yeah i mean he he was all about, you know, solving problems and not solving symptoms because, you have to start with the root of the problem and [S2: right ] all that, i i mean 
S2: right. well different people in diff- in the same organization are gonna have really different analyses of the [S5: yeah ] problem right you know, the organization i used to work for, you know some people were extremely religious and like understood the prob- the problems we were dealing with as a kind of, symptom of turning away from God and stuff and other people you know were Marxists and <LAUGH> you know so you, you know just cuz they're in the same organization they don't necessarily have the same analysis but, you wanna just think about that question. [S5: mhm ] now what i want you to do though, is i want you to go home and start writing this right away. [S5: okay ] no thinking about it 
S5: while it's all fresh in my mind 
S2: go start writing it. um and, that way you can st- you can_ and it's gonna be terrible when you write it and that's okay. then you can go_ then you can start looking at it and, when you've got it on paper, figure out how to, create the frames that makes it make sense and how to bring in the Sassens and the arguments from Bourgois or for whoever you're gonna use and make it work. [S5: mhm ] um, but you gotta start writing right away [S5: okay ] okay? 
S5: yep 
S2: alright [S5: okay ] it'll be good 
S5: thank you. i f- i i feel much better now. 
S2: good 
S5: s- [S2: take that ] i have, an idea of what's going on 
S2: <LAUGH> okay. good luck writing um, did you write down my phone number if you have emergency [S5: mhm ] okay, call leave me a message 
S5: and also i just, wanna say something um, i just wanna say that it's, very rare that i feel comfortable in a class, enough to like talk and it, usually doesn't happen and it took me a little while but i just wanna say that this is, a class that, i definitely felt, (like contributing something) 
S2: that's great. that's really really good. i'm glad. we enjoyed your participation. and uh, and it's, i i think there should be a hell of a lot more classes that are this size i mean [S5: mhm, yeah ] it's a travesty of education that there aren't <LAUGH> 
S5: i mean i, i came here and i spent, two years taking every wrong class that wasn't for for me cuz my grandparents are like be a doctor [S2: right ] i'm like okay <S2 LAUGH> you know, so i came and i took chem and calc and i'm like it's, not my thing [S2: right ] but uh, yeah this, this is a very interesting subject 
S2: good. and i spent my whole college career taking classes that now i think i shouldn't have taken so <SS LAUGH> so [S5: i guess it happens to ] it's never too late to figure <LAUGH> 
S5: happens to the best of us you know 
S2: it's never too late to figure stuff out. alright 
S5: alright. thank you very much 
S2: send Rupa in and uh 
S5: okay, i will d- 
S2: good luck writing and i'll uh, [S5: yep ] keep in touch 
S5: alright definitely 
S2: hi 
S5: (are you uh,) if i don't see you 
S6: oh yeah 
S5: have a great time (in Japan) 
S6: oh thank you. bye 
S5: bye. (xx) 
S2: <LAUGH> you don't have to whisper. <LAUGH> 
R1: excuse me 
S2: come on in... um, grab a microphone. 
R1: (oh it's like_ i'll grab it,) if i could ask you to fill this out um [S6: oh sure ] it's a consent form and a short information form 
S2: this is a consent form, you sign it on the back and type_ and, check lots of things <P :07> shall i start peeking? 
S6: mkay this, it's pretty much a lot [S2: that's ] of the same stuff i've had and then, like notes that i scribbled. 
S2: hm really... huh... 
S6: i just got a bunch of, um articles and some of 'em, [S2: yeah ] they had just like lists of statistics, and a lot of them are pretty 
S2: that's very interes- 
S6: surprising [S2: yeah ] mhm 
S2: alright... done? 
R1: thank you 
S6: oh i see 
S2: somewhere 
S6: is that alright? [R1: mhm ] like that...? <FIXING LAPEL MIC> 
R1: that'll be great 
S6: mkay 
S2: alright so. talk to me what are your questions? what are 
S6: okay i had, um i did (in) my interviews, [S2: okay ] um, which were really interesting, [S2: good ] but it seems like there's just so much, [S2: right ] and i just don't know how to, i don't know where to start <LAUGH> 
S2: right. okay. um, alright... i wanna tell you to start number one by not starting with this. [S6: okay ] and here's why because um, you may be able to take much of this and put it into your paper [S6: okay ] um, but, this is a very long and, many subjects <LAUGH> [S6: mkay ] um, introduction where you in a way you say you know what you wanna [S6: mhm ] do. um, but you've gotta figure out how to, make that much shorter right? <LAUGH> and tell me what you're gonna argue in this paper, [S6: okay ] right? and then and then pull out these themes [S6: (it's that) ] into, sections. [S6: okay ] um, so. what are, um, what do you think the argument of this paper is gonna be now...? outline of it... 
S6: <LAUGH> um, i thought with the whole like new model of the not quite white ethnic, [S2: uhuh ] and, um, the way that race and class both play, an important role [S2: okay ] um... and how just, um, in some ways they're just so different, um than the, not quite white ethnics in the fifties and sixties. but if, um, maybe like second or third generation, um, Indians could be considered like, a sort of new white, determining determinant on their class too though [S2: uhuh ] if they're middle-class. [S2: right ] so 
S2: not this other one in five [S6: yeah ] <LAUGH> okay. um, great so what you should do, is, um, write me_ write a sort of first paragraph where you say that you are in some sense, in this paper gonna be testing the degree to which the not quite white ethnic, argument of Sugrue can be sort of, revised in the present, um, and in- and, investigating sort of how, s- race, and class kind of [S6: okay ] work together how class may in some sense, shape racial, categorization or whatever which is you know [S6: okay ] a bit what he talks about. um, now. what are the ways that your, the materials you've got from the interviews, and the um, and i think you're gonna have a great argument there that's gonna be really interesting. um, so what are the ways that the material you've got, both from these articles that you've read and from your interviews are gonna help you make that argument? what are the [S6: okay ] kinds of big themes or categories that you feel like come up? 
S6: um, some of the ways that, um Indians view discrimination or experiences of discrimination, um it seems like it's more just based on their immigrant status than, race, um... 
S2: that's how they interpret it as [S6: yeah ] based on 
S6: more so, [S2: uhuh ] and... 
S2: um, did for instance your father and mother assertively sort of make that kind of distinction? 
S6: yeah my dad said something, to the effect that um, second-generation Indians will face discrimination but not the same way because we're American 
S2: uhuh, right [S6: so ] okay. [S6: um ] um... in what way does he think second generation, will experience discrimination and why? 
S6: um that's, i mean he was the only one who said [S2: okay ] anything about, but my mom, like she didn't say anything about that 
S2: uhuh, okay. um, i'm just uh... i'm wondering if um, if this is an ig- i mean i- you know it's an insufficient material to work with in some sense but if this, if you're gonna use this, kind of argument of your father's as a way of um, arguing that, he is making a kind of claim not to whiteness particularly but, um, disclaiming, racial discrimination as, [S6: mhm ] a factor and, and instead sort of focusing on the immigrant status if that's a way of kind of, distancing himself from the sort of racial hierarchies in this country. um, not, you know [S6: mhm mhm ] distancing himself but you know but that, [S6: yeah ] that's a potential interpretation of it. um which is not necessarily a play for whiteness but it is a kind of 
S6: it's a different 
S2: yeah. it's a [S6: mhm ] sort of argument against sort of, the importance of race in some way, you know? so you shou- just want might wanna think about that, [S6: yeah ] okay. so Indians' experiences of discrimination. one category 
S6: um and then also, the way that, um, they view, African-Americans in, [S2: okay ] in America 
S2: what kinds of stuff have you got about that? 
S6: um, well with my parents and my cousin, just um, equating, um like dangerous areas with being pre- predominantly [S2: okay ] black communities. um... 
S2: did you get any [S6: and ] interesting answers to your question of um, what they thought of sort of America and, race in America before they came versus when they came or? 
S6: um they kind of just like walked around that question. [S2: huh ] um, [S2: how did they walk around it? ] i mean they said that they, they learned stuff in school, [S2: uhuh ] but... i mean, i don't know. th- i think they were surprised by what_ my mom was just saying that when when she moved in, she started working, um at one clinic where most of, um the patients just came back from Vietnam and [S2: oh ] were heroin addicts, i think and she said that was p- huge culture shock, [S2: right ] and that it just happened that m- most of the patients [S2: right ] were black so she s- sort of thought of like poor and black but then she makes this distinction between_ because all the head, like the older, doctors who [S2: mhm ] worked in the clinic were all black, [S2: mhm ] so she made a distinction between like educated and then not [S2: right right ] um, and then they also said that, in all the clinics that they worked in that they knew that the only reason, um, why mostly Asian doctors were working there was because no white doctors would wanna work in the area. [S2: right. um ] yeah, um. the only thing my cousin said that she didn't know that um, people were so religious here. <SS LAUGH> but she started working in Arkansas and sh- and i asked her if she fi- faced like did people ask you strange questions and she's like well when i worked in, Arkansas like nobody knew where India was and the the only [S2: right ] thing that they wanted to be like, they were mostly concerned with is if 
S2: whether you were saved or not 
S6: if i was Christian, <S2 LAUGH> yeah, or if i believe in God and then, then it was alright 
S2: <LAUGH> that's very interesting. um 
S6: and then just with bad experiences mm the one thing my cousin said that, um there was one patient who, um, just didn't like, Indian occupational therapists just because i_ well, she said that it wasn't because she had a bad experience but mostly cuz she was, like had a psychological problem i think she was schizophrenic but, that she was convinced that, she was this other therapist who, talked down to her or something like that [S2: huh ] and, she's like that's the only bad experience i've had and i don't think that has anything to do with, um, her not liking Indian people or [S2: right ] anything it was [S2: it's just ] just that you know 
S2: yeah. <LAUGH> she was crazy [S6: yeah ] um, okay. uh alright now you've also got your, guy talking about sort of commonality [S6: mhm ] right? um, between African-Americans and, um, and Indian, Americans these are my little shorthands. um, did y- did uh, you get your parents to talk at all about that? did they, [S6: um ] did you get any more info from him? 
S6: my, [S2: yeah ] no i didn't get any [S2: that's okay ] more from him but, my dad did say something like, that um, even though they're immigrants they just have, it a lot better, a lot better off than, um, most African-Americans [S2: uhuh ] and... but that they're just very different. that there's not really, many similarities, [S2: uhuh ] at all. [S2: um ] which, with like the, whole new model i wanted to talk about little bit of, how um, Indians still associate themselves so much with India too. there was one article with um, talking about community involvement, [S2: uhuh ] and how Indians just, really lack in that area and if there's, if there's a flood in India how the community'll come together and, [S2: right ] raise money for that but, [S2: right ] if it happens in the U-S that they wouldn't, do that so 
S2: right. yeah, well i mean 
S6: that kinda, contradicts the whole achieving whiteness a little bit, just with their close ties to 
S2: to, India right [S6: yeah ] and there's a, there's a very good question, um, sorry here's a separate sort of topic uh (now we got) <LAUGH> just gonna like put topics all [S6: yeah ] over here and we'll figure out something to do with them. um, okay so uh, right closeness, to India um, and what that does to the not quite white ethnic argument. to, whiteness you know whatever becoming white. [S6: mhm ] um, i mean that's a very good question i mean part, of your explanation you've already suggested is, i mean an open question of what happens with second and third generation [S6: mhm ] cuz the immigrant population you're talking about, is you know, seventies and [S6: yeah, seventies and eighties ] you know recent immigrants um, and this is you know an open question for lots of people but um, one thing to think about is that uh we're in a really different, situation, um, in terms of the proximity of countries and stuff than [S6: mhm ] we were, in the, in previous 
S6: that's true 
S2: big waves of immigration that led to, these not quite white ethnics that Sugrue was talking about. because 
S6: you can just, you know it's a lot [S2: right ] easier to call and 
S2: you can call you can be in sort of constant email contact, [S6: mhm ] you can, you know maybe some places even like watch Indian, television [S6: yeah ] i mean in, in Chicago i used to get those Indian movies on T-V all the time which are <S6 LAUGH> entirely incomprehensible both in form and language um, uh, i mean they're they're incredibly interesting. do you, did your, do your parents watch those? yeah? [S6: yep ] they're i mean they're [S6: they're just, yeah ] great but, they're so different in s- in timing in style and, like everything they're really great 
S6: like musical comedies and, yeah i have i have friends who'll never miss it it comes on like every Sunday 
S2: right so you know you can be in kind of constant contact with the [S6: yeah ] same sort of cultural forms that are developing in India, um 
S6: or even like private, um smaller businesses like with the, commu- cu- computer industry opening up that, a lot of Indian people have started their own businesses and then, go to India like every few ye- years not just for travel but for work too 
S2: right. right so like, you wanna think about all those ways um, that um, those kinds of ties and see if you can like you know, tell me those kinds of ties [S6: they're just really different. okay ] um... so the ways those kinds of ties may, mean that, maybe, we don't know. maybe second and third generation will maintain, at least some kind of closer identification with India than, um, was true of of Sugrue's not quite white ethnics. then you know like the, people who moved here from Italy always thought they were gonna go back too and, you know i mean there [S6: yeah ] there's some ways that, that it may be, similar. um, so but 
S6: or even like how um families stress going back for visits, [S2: right ] like every few years and 
S2: right, um, and even uh there're probably, um, there's probably a, big circulation of like Indian videos and stuff [S6: mhm ] back and forth from, um you can prob- i mean i- are there Indian video stores that your parents go and rent, movies? 
S6: mhm 
S2: right so you know, and things like that that [S6: yeah ] that didn't exist before 
S6: that's true [S2: um ] or even clothing stores 
S2: right or clothing_ [S6: mm ] yeah. i mean all [S6: yeah ] sorts of ways that, those ties can be maintained. um, so, that's one thing that is undermining, or or that is, maybe maybe has shifted. so here, we've got sort of two separate things going on here. this is one thing that's maybe sort of shifted the, meaning of the, of, your sort of not quite white argument right? so, [S6: mhm ] this is one way like it needs to be revised in the current context. [S6: mkay ] right? um, uh, i have a feeling there's another way we've already talked about that it has to be revised <P :05> what just went away, in my head...? i can't re- 
S6: ties to India? no (not ties) 
S2: ties to India? no that's that category, okay um it'll come back to me. um... okay so what other themes? 
S6: um... see i don't know like what, i should put in the paper and what i just shouldn't cuz it just seems [S2: (sure) ] like really off the topic but with um, with British colonialism and English [S2: mhm ] how um Indian immigrants usually have, had exposure to English in schools [S2: right ] rather, like compared to, most other Asian immigrants [S2: immigrants right ] that don't. [S2: right ] so that almost puts them_ i mean like for English as a second language they're usually not Indian kids in that [S2: right right ] but, in one of the articles i guess that's changing [S2: uhuh ] if um, families from more rural areas in India that don't, have exposure to English then [S2: right ] the kids_ so i think in one community in New Jersey that they're having, Gujarati as one of the, [S2: right ] like they're teaching classes in it [S2: huh ] too so 
S2: well i mean there may be uh, an example of, um, the kind of changing class of Indian immigrants right [S6: yeah, it's r- ] i mean it's rural also means um [S6: yeah and my my dad was talking yeah, he's just like, yeah, ] you know not fully educated classes in India and India has its own rather intense class structure um 
S6: and that's what i thought i'd talk about cuz [S2: yeah ] when, whenever um, the subject of racism would come up in my family like my parents would always talk about, in terms of India just [S2: uhuh ] that, you know it's it's different and, somehow like it, i dunno like their exposure to it is just so, different in terms of just what they've experienced in India so 
S2: in what kinds of ways do you think? 
S6: um, i think just how intermarriage between castes is so, stigmatized [S2: uhuh ] but, like my grandparents are from different castes, so it's like a love marriage not an arranged [S2: right ] marriage and, um, i think maybe because of that they, seem a little more open-minded compared to most other Indian families [S2: huh ] that, that we interact with but 
S2: yeah well i mean it's a it's an interesting question um 
S6: so i thought background has a lot 
S2: it's too many interesting questions 
S6: yeah because even talking like um, with some family friends um, just what_ well my parents, they just seem so different, [S2: uhuh ] um like almost the exception but i think that's partially just their background 
S2: yeah that makes sense i mean yeah personal history matters 
S6: yeah or even just like, i was asking them about welfare and, medi- like how they see the, medical field and my dad wants socialized medicine, [S2: right ] which seems so different from what most doctors, [S2: uhuh ] want that i've talked to, [S2: right ] but, i think even like the way they view politics is just different from, where they came from like, the family, being, yeah i don't know 
S2: um, uh i mean India has, a tradition of sort of leftist politics i mean is your family involved in that, at all? 
S6: my both grandparents were communists like very active very very active 
S2: well see there you go <LAUGH> 
S6: so, yeah but my my my yeah my [S2: (don't you think that's one connection?) ] mom's, dad was but, he um was an accountant so, but my grandfather like his whole life, worked for labor unions <LAUGH> 
S2: okay <LAUGH> right so yeah they come, yeah 
S6: yeah so it's just different, different 
S2: um, but i mean you've got an interesting question about sort of the way, um, racial_ cuz i mean, the caste structure, we can talk about it as a, racial structure in some sense i mean, uh 
S6: or even just like with, i mean i don't know about other Asian countries but, India just even state-wise it's so different so different language different culture, and even intermarriage between that is kind of [S2: right ] you know very unusual 
S2: right across religious lines [S6: yeah ] and across right 
S6: so it's like all that stuff, [S2: right ] but then when they come here they're sort of, brought together even though i don't think, religious wi- 
S2: no? not even here? 
S6: i don't think there's interaction between Hindus and Muslims here but... 
S2: um <P :05> okay. um, so you've got a kind of, big question about sort of, how experiences, or sort of experiences in, with sort of race and politics and stuff in India 
S6: kinda influenced how 
S2: right. influence interpretations here. okay. [S6: mkay ] alright other big issues... what are other ways that you think and other reasons that the not quite white ethnic, analogy, doesn't quite entirely work or doesn't, uh, work without substantial revisions? in the present [S6: um ] you've got one reason 
<P :07> 
S6: i mean i think with the whole multiculturalism, you know it's, that they don't really necessarily, feel that, they need to_ i mean it stressed on um, with second-generation Indians and, retaining the Indian culture and, so it's not like, it's all, it's stigmatized if you lose that so, it's different than the not quite white [S2: right ] ethnics who, and i don't think they could ever be categorized as being white. um [S2: why? ] but, almost on the other hand i think, in certain aspects they could. [S2: okay ] maybe in a few generations if 
S2: well right um <P :10>
S6: uh i don't know 
S2: well it's a hard question it's a [S6: yeah ] really hard question. um 
S6: um, or even like intermarriage i mean it's more common between um, an Indian person, and a white, person rather, than the other way or, i mean like, if an Indian, person was to marry a black, [S2: right ] like have a black husband or wife i don't think, that would be accepted at all. so, i don't know. [S2: right ] somehow like, marrying like ha- marrying a black person would somehow, put you in this like weird American category that, you wouldn't become like, you'd being going down rather than sort of 
S2: right right right. so there is um, uh, i'm not getting a great sense of, organization yet but, um... so there is a real sort of sense of the um, racial structures in the United States and sort of the, hierarchies and where one fits in it and, [S6: mhm ] i mean even if in a kind of, uh, even if claims aren't gonna be made to being white and, people don't wanna lose Indian identity, there may still be ways that, um, you certainly don't wanna be marked, in, non-white American, racial categories [S6: mhm ] right? so, if you can stay in the kind of unmarked, [S6: yeah ] category, that, uh, yeah that's important. so uh, mm (what do) i do with that? well that sort of goes in the, ways 
S6: the, are becoming 
S2: it works <LAUGH> [S6: right okay ] um, uh, intermarriage question. um <P :07> uh alright. <P :05> other, other ways that you think it doesn't quite work. we've got the sort of other, your one guy who thinks, there's, commonality between African-Americans and, [S6: mhm ] um, [S6: i don't ] were there_ yeah how else? how else do you think it needs to be revised from, based on your interviews and stuff? 
S6: um i had an uncle who actually always used to say that but i think that's [S2: say what? ] partially_ that there's very, like common links between African-Americans and [S2: (maybe to) ] Indians but i think, i mean he was raised in in Africa but, the structure there was so different because, i mean at that time, um, Indians were, owning a bunch of, land i guess [S2: uhuh ] and, they were really really wealthy and all their servants were, black [S2: uhuh ] but, that whole structure changed because maybe like fifty years_ i think they came to build railroads so... [S2: huh ] but he used to always say that too. [S2: huh ] um 
S2: yeah well i mean, i, w- we can't, without talking to more people we can't [S6: yeah ] know this for sure but i'm pretty sure that the- it's gotta be some kind of reference to, India's colonial position. right so like making a parallel not necessarily in sort of culture or like, life in the United States but, making a broader parallel in sort of [S6: yeah ] the positioning of like those, nations or whatever. um 
S6: yeah that'd probably 
S2: uh, and you know given the things that you said about sort of, um, what like Britain_ i mean sort of, moving to Britain would mean <LAUGH> [S6: yeah ] for your parents i mean i think that's something that must be sort of, [S6: yeah ] maybe the U-S gets to be out of that to some degree but, it's like a conscious 
S6: yeah i asked my dad that like why most people_ but he said something that um the U-S was looked at as a better place to go to that it was harder to get here, something like that but [S2: huh ] he s- said also that he wouldn't ever want to live there either so 
S2: right. um, i mean you've got two things i mean you've got that sort of question of commonality you also have like the fact that compared to, you know, white Americans your parents and these other Indian-Americans that, work in these places, um, have probably more contact [S6: mhm ] with black folks than like, [S6: yeah ] um you know? than, is certainly common, um among white people right? [S6: yeah ] um 
S6: but i think that, i mean after iviner- interviewing some people at my mom's clinic i think they're the exception, [S2: mhm ] um compared to most Indian people that they, they don't work in areas like [S2: right ] that i mean 
S2: right. what do you think that uh, what do you think about sort of those close, working relationships, do to your parents' understandings of sort of race and the way they position themselves as Indian-Americans etcetera? <P :08> 
S6: um even with when i was talking to my cousin, somehow they put themselves like in between, [S2: mhm ] black and white that um my cousin said something like, you know um, oh no actually my dad said something like that he's like you know like white, white Americans hate black Americans but somehow like we fit somewhere in the middle and um, like both don't hate us <LAUGH> so, that somehow they [S2: right ] position themselves in in the middle... 
S2: middle, yeah i think that's important. i mean somewhere in the middle and i would maybe add like, i mean outside of like, in some sense then outside of the racial structure. i mean, whether or not that's, actually true, um but in some sense like, [S6: yeah ] um outside of the, racial categories that, mean a a whole lot in this country you know...? um, yeah i think that's important. <P :07> um, okay other, [S6: mm ] other ways that you think the um <P :14> other major sort of categories that come out of the interview that you, the interviews that you think are relevant to this not quite white, argument and its revisions? 
S6: mm <P :06> um, sort of like how my parents have moved, [S2: mhm ] um, they kind of followed all their other Indian friends, so they, it seems like most Indian, people move out where there is already a somewhat established [S2: right ] Indian community. um 
S2: i think this goes with your multiculturalism argument right like in some sense (you get) 
S6: yeah but then also apart from, a predominantly black area 
S2: okay, okay, right. so, they move into white suburbs but where there's 
S6: a somewhat estab- yeah 
S2: there's a sort of Indian community. and um, even if they, their neighbors are white, see and i think it's important to sort of think about, suburbs as spaces that neighborhoods don't actually make community at all [S6: mhm ] we've talked about this before. [S6: yeah ] um and so people, construct their communities by driving different places and stuff and so, um your parents social scene is, predominantly, Indian. um, right but the ways it works down here to um, move to sort of white suburbs as they gain sort of status. <P :09> mm, okay. now um <P :05> i'm getting to start to sense a structure here. [S6: yeah ] here's my [S6: mm ] sort of, well go ahead 
S6: the whole_ yeah for, like going along with that and then 
S2: yeah like in a way i mean you could start with, laying out, i mean in some sense you've got to lay out what the not quite white argument is [S6: mhm ] and what it says about the relationships of, race and class right? so that would be your sort of section one. [S6: okay. ] and um... 
S6: does Sugrue write any more about it besides, the one section in, is that from a book? [S2: about ] the the not quite white ethnic? 
S2: it is from a book 
S6: it was like, okay [S2: um ] i should probably look at that, look for that 
S2: it's uh... um... it's called um, The Origins of the Urban Crisis. [S6: mhm ] um, we read, cumulatively three chapters of it. uh, the homeowners chapter, the, economic change in Detroit chapter, [S6: okay ] the deindustrialization of Detroit, [S6: oh okay ] and the conclusion. um, um, i mean i don't think you need to go and read a bunch more. [S6: okay ] um, i mean you've done substantial work in that other paper, kind [S6: oh yeah ] of laying out the argument. um, and what you need to do is you know make that more succinct in some sense and, and make the point you wanna make about sort of race and class in some sense. um, and then, your second section would be, the way that, that this maybe still does work, to explain some things [S6: mkay ] right? so you've got the move to the suburbs you've got kind of a real internalization in some sense of the class structure, with like fears of intermarriage and stuff like that and, um, and you know some of this ways they view African-Americans would fit into that too [S6: okay ] like an awareness of the, spaces that Sugrue talks about of the sort of, dangerous, black spaces [S6: yeah ] maybe and the safe white spaces in the suburbs, um, um but then, but then there're all sorts of ways that it, that it needs to be revised. um, and some are that you know, um, might be that there's some kind of awareness of commonality because of colonialism for some people [S6: oh okay ] um, so here um, you know your parents make, class distinctions among African-Americans because they i mean they work closely with African-Americans [S6: mhm ] so they, they don't have a just very simple like black equals dangerous, street person, because [S6: yeah ] they have more daily contact than 
S6: that's true 
S2: um, uh, and, then you have your kind of um, bigger sort of also reasons that it might not, entirely work. you know? where the, [S6: er- ] the situation may have changed enough. um... and then you've got, i dunno exactly where this goes um, this probably goes in a way in the, the ways it works in some sense i mean you need to deal with the question of sort of what the class is of, Indians coming i don't_ it may fit in that section it may fit somewhere else i don't know it fits fairly central and early in, structuring in your [S6: mkay ] argument um, 
S6: so how class also has a role? 
S2: right i mean if if, um Indian-Americans are coming over as educated professionals, or getting their education here, then they're kind of in the... you know upper middle-class, [S6: mkay ] um, which may shape their, um <P :05> you know i mean it i- e- it could make them, in Sugrue's argument be able to become white [S6: okay ] um, but of course as you have found in this those other art- newspaper articles that um, there are also new immigrants coming that maybe aren't so upper middle-class um that may, i mean [S6: challenge that, yeah ] they may have really different experiences. uhuh. they may feel themselves much more racialized, um, uh and so, oh and your your little, we fit, in the middle <LAUGH> belongs [S6: mhm ] up here too with the, kind of way that, maybe it it looks different now or, maybe Indian-Americans are a- both actively positioning themselves, um, not as white or as [S6: mhm ] black but as something else um, and may also be positioned that way um, since there's an i mean, for, i mean there's a, there's a huge history in California or someplace like that of sort of, incredible hostility to, i mean long history of hostility to, Chinese-Americans and Japanese and um Latino. um, so, um, at least there there's kind of_ and and in some other places in the U-S, there's, a really long history of, um East-Asian immigrants that have been, um treated very badly and and, as you know that, a- a- s- it's kind of foundational parts of making a racial hierarchy in the [S6: mhm ] United States um, but, people from India, weren't [S6: yeah ] around then here 
S6: i think it seems just [S2: um ] like Sikhs who were in California [S2: yeah exactly that's true some yeah, um ] and Canada like they're the only ones, but, yeah i think as a whole like 
S2: yeah not very many um, [S6: 'm'm ] uh, so. so does that help? 
S6: a lot. 
S2: okay. um, 
S6: yeah <S2 LAUGH> i mean i was sitting down yesterday and i was trying to and and, it, it just 
S2: you've got a lot of stuff (so right i mean it would be,) so what i recommend doing is with this like basic structure, [S6: mhm ] now look back through your notes and try to see, quotes and, arguments and maybe things that we've missed here, [S6: mkay ] that belong in some of these categories. 
S6: okay. whoa. <SS LAUGH> yeah. 
S2: hard kind of paper to write 
S6: it's just yeah it's just hard, starting 
S2: yeah it's very hard starting. so go home [S6: that's okay ] and this is what i told Ryan go home and start right now, <S6 LAUGH> while it's fresh in your mind, [S6: yeah <LAUGH> ] while you're thinking about it so you don't have to start all over and, i mean it's the same for me like when i put my work away for a day or two and, i start [S6: then it goes ] back up like the just the 
S6: yeah [S2: that hurdle ] it's it's the starting part that's just so hard for me 
S2: it can make you ill 
S6: yeah. and i'm starting to, pack cuz i'm leaving in a week from, for Japan so, that seems like even more attractive than starting this <LAUGH> and i hate packing. i hate like 
S2: wow. wow that's so exciting though 
S6: yeah. i'm excited now. i think the day after i get there though i have to take a test, to, like placement exams 
S2: wait so you do speak some, Japanese? 
S6: yeah 
S2: how much? 
S6: um, i've taken three years 
S2: oh that's a lot (so you're fluent) 
S6: see i don't know exactly like what fluent means though, i mean i know i still can't read like half of the 
S2: well no, but reading is just is just such a different ball game that it doesn't [S6: yeah ] have a lot to do with, your speaking ability 
S6: it'll be nice to actually be there and then like, just be surrounded by it and, [S2: (that's so great) ] maybe it can soak in a little more 
S2: i used to speak Japanese 
S6: you did? 
S2: when i was a kid [S6: really? ] just a baby kid yeah. when i was two and three i sort of spoke Japanese as well as i spoke English. um [S6: wow <LAUGH> ] um, but i don't i don't know anything now. cuz my parents' really good friends, who lived next door were Japanese and they had a kid my age who was my best friend. and i stayed with them during the day cuz she didn't work um 
S6: so you probably picked up so much 
S2: i did it was great i mean, i think it probably actually, helped i mean i don't know anything about any Japanese now i know idaki maso maso sumai and i know how to be polite sort of in a meal that's <S6 LAUGH> just about it, um, but i think it helped my ability to learn languages 
S6: cuz you pick up so much then too 
S2: yeah. oh a lot yeah 
S6: cuz i- even sometimes i, um i wish when i was little like they'd write like Japanese characters <SS LAUGH> i could like, get a head start on like (reading) 
S2: well i mean you, learned enough languages when you were young so that you, um 
S6: i don't know how much i retained (of them) so 
S2: no right well, you don't necessarily but, well have a really good time. sounds like a really 
S6: hey i i loved the class i just wanted to tell you. [S2: good, i'm glad ] i thought at first like just driving that far, i'm like oh i hope the class is good <S2 LAUGH> and now it's like, and everyone's like wow you must really like that class to drive that far i'm like no it's like it_ the drive doesn't even seem that bad anymore and 
S2: that's great. it's 
S6: good class [S2: good ] i really enjoyed it 
S2: alright well i enjoyed you in it as well and uh, do keep in touch if you you know, need anything from me [S6: okay ] if you ever want a recommendation or anything like that. um, and uh 
S6: have a safe trip 
S2: i will, and have a safe trip to Japan that's a (xx) 
<SS LAUGH> 
S6: oh thanks 
S2: i'll tell my_ i have a good friend who's um, fluent in Japanese in San Francisco and he'd be very jealous... alright bye 
S6: bye 
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