<time>433_00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:03,240</time>
<s>在一些文化核心区</s>
<time>434_00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,040</time>
<s>它就以一种为主</s>
<time>435_00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:06,120</time>
<s>它肯定是这种状态</s>
<time>436_00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:07,200</time>
<s>一我觉得你是一个学者的态度</s>
<time>437_00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,720</time>
<s>但我们现在从长时间段来</s>
<time>438_00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:10,800</time>
<s>我们就会意识到</s>
<time>439_00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,040</time>
<s>在那个非洲土著</s>
<time>440_00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:15,480</time>
<s>他们有他们的美</s>
<time>441_00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,000</time>
<s>然后我们有我们的美</s>
<time>442_00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:19,800</time>
<s>那你拿现在一个</s>
<time>443_00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:21,960</time>
<s>你就是找一个什么奥黛丽·赫本</s>
<time>444_00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:23,040</time>
<s>拿到唐朝去</s>
<time>445_00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:24,120</time>
<s>肯定也不成</s>
<time>446_00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:24,840</time>
<s>人家要胖的</s>
<time>447_00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:27,360</time>
<s>某种程度上讲</s>
<time>448_00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,600</time>
<s>你像我们算是比较观察社会的</s>
<time>449_00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:32,760</time>
<s>那可能我们自居于</s>
<time>450_00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:34,920</time>
<s>我们似乎懂得一些什么</s>
<time>451_00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:36,720</time>
<s>但实际也没有什么自信</s>
<time>452_00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:38,520</time>
<s>但是为什么我们本能地</s>
<time>453_00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:40,680</time>
<s>有时候就会抱怨</s>
<time>454_00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:42,480</time>
<s>这个社会里有相当一部分人</s>
<time>455_00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:44,280</time>
<s>就是说太需要美育了</s>
<time>456_00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:46,080</time>
<s>因为不懂欣赏对吧</s>
<time>457_00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,320</time>
<s>好的电影看不出好来</s>
<time>458_00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,200</time>
<s>好的画不能辨辩别</s>
<time>459_00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,440</time>
<s>然后把粪土卖成黄金对不对</s>
<time>460_00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:56,880</time>
<s>这好像是崔健的名言</s>
<time>461_00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,040</time>
<s>就是说乱七八糟的东西</s>
<time>462_00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:00,480</time>
<s>视若拱璧</s>
<time>463_00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,360</time>
<s>那么当我们在这样说的时候</s>
<time>464_00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:04,440</time>
<s>我们是不是</s>
<time>465_00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:07,680</time>
<s>我们的这种优越感靠得住吗</s>
<time>466_00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:08,400</time>
<s>还是说</s>
<time>467_00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:10,920</time>
<s>如果按照您的那个说法</s>
<time>468_00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,440</time>
<s>那意思咱们不必评价了</s>
<time>469_00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:15,240</time>
<s>不我觉得靠得住</s>
<time>470_00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:16,320</time>
<s>它这个就</s>
<time>471_00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,480</time>
<s>你在特定时代有稳定的</s>
<time>472_00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,080</time>
<s>并且具有公共性的审美</s>
<time>473_00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:23,520</time>
<s>这个是没有问题的</s>
<time>474_00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,480</time>
<s>这个跟审美在不同时代中</s>
<time>475_00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:29,640</time>
<s>是有所变迁的并不矛盾</s>
<time>476_00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:32,160</time>
<s>好那你觉得现在我们的</s>
<time>477_00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,320</time>
<s>这个时代风景里边</s>
<time>478_00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:35,760</time>
<s>这个公共性</s>
<time>479_00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,920</time>
<s>你觉得有什么遗憾的地方</s>
<time>480_00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,800</time>
<s>所以有什么需要改进</s>
<time>481_00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:41,880</time>
<s>有点多</s>
<time>482_00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:43,320</time>
<s>什么有点多</s>
<time>483_00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:44,760</time>
<s>到处遗憾的地方</s>
<time>484_00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:46,920</time>
<s>你可以说一两个</s>
<time>485_00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,440</time>
<s>刚才您还提倡美是兼容并包的</s>
<time>486_00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:50,880</time>
<s>那您现在</s>
<time>487_00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:52,680</time>
<s>您看您这洁癖也发作了</s>
<time>488_00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:54,480</time>
<s>您可以举例子</s>
<time>489_00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,280</time>
<s>我发现具体大家就明白了</s>
<time>490_00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,440</time>
<s>他我发现这个真是到处跑</s>
<time>491_00:16:58,800 --> 00:16:59,520</time>
<s>精力无穷</s>
<time>492_00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,680</time>
<s>很多城镇乡村你都参与建设了</s>
<time>493_00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,920</time>
<s>我比较大的遗憾</s>
<time>494_00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,080</time>
<s>其实我对建筑反倒没那么多意见</s>
<time>495_00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:07,800</time>
<s>我比较大的遗憾</s>
<time>496_00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,320</time>
<s>是我们现在这个电脑美术字太多</s>
<time>497_00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:12,120</time>
<s>经常一个店铺</s>
<time>498_00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:13,920</time>
<s>过去的中国城市</s>
<time>499_00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:16,800</time>
<s>那就是它才真正的多样</s>
<time>500_00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:17,520</time>
<s>过去的中国城市</s>
<time>501_00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,040</time>
<s>几乎就是那个城市的书法家们的</s>
<time>502_00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:20,760</time>
<s>一个群展</s>
<time>503_00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,000</time>
<s>酒旗招牌店铺</s>
<time>504_00:17:24,360 --> 00:17:25,800</time>
<s>竖的横的牌匾</s>
<time>505_00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:26,880</time>
<s>就是每个城市</s>
<time>506_00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:27,960</time>
<s>所以他在三源里菜市场</s>
<time>507_00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:28,680</time>
<s>他搞这个</s>
<time>508_00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:30,120</time>
<s>包括这个城市</s>
<time>509_00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,640</time>
<s>我记得有一年我去曲阜</s>
<time>510_00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,520</time>
<s>然后就发觉曲阜的普通人家</s>
<time>511_00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:36,600</time>
<s>贴的那个春联的</s>
<time>512_00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:38,760</time>
<s>隶书的水平都非常高</s>
<time>513_00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:40,200</time>
<s>我仔细一想那也是</s>
<time>514_00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:40,920</time>
<s>人家《礼器碑》</s>
<time>515_00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,080</time>
<s>就搁在他们那个孔庙里边</s>
<time>516_00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:44,880</time>
<s>他这里的中学老师</s>
<time>517_00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:46,320</time>
<s>帮大家写写春联</s>
<time>518_00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:48,480</time>
<s>就是过去的城市</s>
<time>519_00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,360</time>
<s>整座城市就是一座天然的书法馆</s>
<time>520_00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:53,160</time>
<s>或者美术馆</s>
<time>521_00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:54,240</time>
<s>我们今天的城市</s>
<time>522_00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:56,040</time>
<s>拼命修很多美术馆</s>
<time>523_00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,200</time>
<s>把艺术去收在美术馆里面</s>
<time>524_00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,080</time>
<s>但是街上的这个字非常丑</s>
<time>525_00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:02,520</time>
<s>就是经常出现</s>
<time>526_00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:03,600</time>
<s>一些非常丑的美术字</s>
<time>527_00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:04,320</time>
<s>对了</s>
<time>528_00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,200</time>
<s>它这个丑本来可能不丑</s>
<time>529_00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,360</time>
<s>比如说那个隶书的字体</s>
<time>530_00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,520</time>
<s>可能是以前老北京的老书法家</s>
<time>531_00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,400</time>
<s>刘炳森先生的隶书的字体</s>
<time>532_00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:17,640</time>
<s>从乙瑛碑里面发展出来的</s>
<time>533_00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:20,880</time>
<s>可是如果他专门为这家店铺写</s>
<time>534_00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,400</time>
<s>旁边另外一家店是请徐累写</s>
<time>535_00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:24,840</time>
<s>隔壁那家店请我写</s>
<time>536_00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:26,640</time>
<s>这座城市就会好看</s>
<time>537_00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:28,080</time>
<s>关键是他一整条街</s>
<time>538_00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:29,880</time>
<s>全是刘炳森的隶书</s>
<time>539_00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:31,680</time>
<s>那再好看的隶书也会变丑的</s>
<time>540_00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:34,200</time>
<s>它美跟繁还是有关的</s>
<time>541_00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:34,920</time>
<s>这个邱老师</s>
<time>542_00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:36,360</time>
<s>我要刺破你一个气球</s>
<time>543_00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:38,160</time>
<s>我现在发现这个人们上节目</s>
<time>544_00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:39,600</time>
<s>都越来越会说话了</s>
<time>545_00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:41,400</time>
<s>说了半天不知道</s>
<time>546_00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,200</time>
<s>老邱今天让我们也是大开眼界</s>
<time>547_00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:44,280</time>
<s>大开眼界对</s>
<time>548_00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:45,000</time>
<s>我跟你说</s>
<time>549_00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:46,080</time>
<s>我找了你一点儿黑材料</s>
<time>550_00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:47,880</time>
<s>你自己写的文章</s>
<time>551_00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:49,680</time>
<s>你才能在他写的文章里</s>
<time>552_00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:50,760</time>
<s>你才能够感觉到</s>
<time>553_00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:54,000</time>
<s>他是怎样一个性情的人</s>
<time>554_00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:56,160</time>
<s>你想他的这个观点</s>
<time>555_00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:57,600</time>
<s>他反对二次元</s>
<time>556_00:18:58,680 --> 00:18:59,040</time>
<s>对吧</s>
<time>557_00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,920</time>
<s>然后他说这个为了卖漫画</s>
<time>558_00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,080</time>
<s>不惜把一代青年变成御宅族</s>
<time>559_00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:05,160</time>
<s>为二次元文化</s>
<time>560_00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:06,960</time>
<s>推波助澜的不良商家</s>
<time>561_00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:08,760</time>
<s>以及今天还在不断推动</s>
<time>562_00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:10,560</time>
<s>网红经济的投机者</s>
<time>563_00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:12,720</time>
<s>放弃了批判的知识分子</s>
<time>564_00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,240</time>
<s>都将是民族的罪人和文明的罪人</s>
<time>565_00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,040</time>
<s>这都是您说的话</s>
<time>566_00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:18,480</time>
<s>然后这个</s>
<time>567_00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,360</time>
<s>你看因为他是教孩子们的老师</s>
<time>568_00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:22,800</time>
<s>他说孩子们很欢乐</s>
<time>569_00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:23,520</time>
<s>他们恶搞的片子</s>
<time>570_00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,320</time>
<s>剪得很熟练很逗</s>
<time>571_00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:26,760</time>
<s>但是里边没有一秒钟</s>
<time>572_00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:29,280</time>
<s>尝试引人尊重或者深思</s>
<time>573_00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:30,360</time>
<s>时间将被消费</s>
<time>574_00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:32,160</time>
<s>时间被笑声填充</s>
<time>575_00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:33,600</time>
<s>这个世界里没有非洲</s>
<time>576_00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:35,040</time>
<s>中东和印度的苦难</s>
<time>577_00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:36,480</time>
<s>没有祖辈的饥饿</s>
<time>578_00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:38,280</time>
<s>和父辈的贫困与无奈</s>
<time>579_00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:39,720</time>
<s>他们在以青春的名义</s>
<time>580_00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:41,160</time>
<s>尽情地遗忘和拒绝</s>
<time>581_00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:41,880</time>
<s>拒绝严肃</s>
<time>582_00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:42,600</time>
<s>拒绝成长</s>
<time>583_00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:43,320</time>
<s>拒绝重量</s>
<time>584_00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,120</time>
<s>拒绝成为男人和女人</s>
<time>585_00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,640</time>
<s>他们将放弃故乡</s>
<time>586_00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:49,800</time>
<s>他们将任祖坟荒芜涯灭</s>
<time>587_00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:51,960</time>
<s>用惯了电脑字库的他们</s>
<time>588_00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:53,400</time>
<s>将不再能也不再愿意</s>
<time>589_00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:55,200</time>
<s>三门分辨辩《礼器碑严和《张迁碑》二</s>
<time>590_00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,000</time>
<s>喝惯了可乐的舌头</s>
<time>591_00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:57,720</time>
<s>将没有能力瓣别清明前后的龙井</s>
<time>592_00:19:59,160 --> 00:19:59,880</time>
<s>将没有能力辩别清明前后的龙井</s>
<time>593_00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:01,320</time>
<s>浅薄庸俗的人</s>
<time>594_00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:02,760</time>
<s>将理直气壮地认为</s>
<time>595_00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:05,280</time>
<s>雅致的文明碍手碍脚应该Pass（淘汰）</s>
<time>596_00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,440</time>
<s>二维码将概括祖宗牌位</s>
<time>597_00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:08,880</time>
<s>老鼠将爬上供锅</s>
<time>598_00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,040</time>
<s>老鼠将爬上供桌供锅</s>
<time>599_00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:11,760</time>
<s>供桌</s>
<time>600_00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:13,200</time>
<s>对你看</s>
<time>601_00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:13,920</time>
<s>教育</s>
<time>602_00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:15,000</time>
<s>这是一个教育工作者</s>
<time>603_00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:16,800</time>
<s>他说教育已经成为</s>
<time>604_00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,320</time>
<s>一场争夺下一代的文化战争</s>
<time>605_00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,920</time>
<s>我教书是担心未来不再有清明节</s>
<time>606_00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:24,720</time>
<s>是担心老师们的坟墓</s>
<time>607_00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:26,160</time>
<s>将来没人打扫</s>
<time>608_00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,040</time>
<s>主要担心自己将来没人扫坟</s>
<time>609_00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:31,560</time>
<s>你说今天这个</s>
<time>610_00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:33,720</time>
<s>跟刚才讲的是不是判若两人</s>
<time>611_00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:34,440</time>
<s>我先欢迎收看</s>
<time>612_00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:35,160</time>
<s>这不是同一个人吗</s>
<time>613_00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:36,600</time>
<s>“圆桌派话剧表演</s>
<time>614_00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:39,480</time>
<s>这不是同一个人吗</s>
<time>615_00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,000</time>
<s>我在这里反对电脑字库</s>
<time>616_00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:43,440</time>
<s>是吧这是同一个人</s>
<time>617_00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:44,520</time>
<s>所以这里面</s>
<time>618_00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:45,960</time>
<s>但是你们俩刚才一说就是</s>
<time>619_00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:47,760</time>
<s>这也行那也行</s>
<time>620_00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:49,200</time>
<s>对我们一说要宽容</s>
<time>621_00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:50,280</time>
<s>就是《礼器碑》</s>
<time>622_00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:51,720</time>
<s>有《礼器碑》的美</s>
<time>623_00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:53,160</time>
<s>《张迁碑》有《张迁碑》的美</s>
<time>624_00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:54,600</time>
<s>《曹全碑》有《曹全碑》的美</s>
<time>625_00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:56,760</time>
<s>这《礼器碑》大概就是典雅</s>
<time>626_00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:58,560</time>
<s>张迁大概就是雄浑</s>
<time>627_00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,080</time>
<s>曹全大概就是婉约是吧</s>
<time>628_00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,680</time>
<s>那么我们要同时兼容这多种美</s>
<time>629_00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:06,480</time>
<s>那电脑字库的那种</s>
<time>630_00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:07,920</time>
<s>那就是不美</s>
<time>631_00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:09,720</time>
<s>因为它是格式化掉</s>
<time>632_00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:11,160</time>
<s>所有的这种东西</s>
<time>633_00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,320</time>
<s>这恰恰就是跟我刚才说的那个话</s>
<time>634_00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:15,120</time>
<s>是完全接在一起的</s>
<time>635_00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:16,200</time>
<s>不过那会儿他还年轻</s>
<time>636_00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:17,640</time>
<s>那会儿说得火气更大</s>
<time>637_00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,440</time>
<s>不也就是说多样性</s>
<time>638_00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,040</time>
<s>通常来说是更倾向于美的</s>
<time>639_00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:26,280</time>
<s>细腻通常来说是更倾向于美的</s>
<time>640_00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,800</time>
<s>那么可是多样细腻走过头了</s>
<time>641_00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:30,600</time>
<s>就变成繁琐是吧</s>
<time>642_00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:32,760</time>
<s>变成满雕工的木床</s>
<time>643_00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:34,920</time>
<s>我们回头还是更喜欢</s>
<time>644_00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:36,360</time>
<s>简洁的明式家具</s>
<time>645_00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,240</time>
<s>他有一个观点挺值得一谈</s>
<time>646_00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:40,680</time>
<s>他就提出美是启蒙</s>
<time>647_00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:41,760</time>
<s>美不是愉悦</s>
<time>648_00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:42,480</time>
<s>咱们原来觉得</s>
<time>649_00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,000</time>
<s>我觉得好看总是因为让我舒服</s>
<time>650_00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:47,520</time>
<s>那中国人老早讲了这个羊大为美</s>
<time>651_00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:49,320</time>
<s>就是其实这个也是</s>
<time>652_00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:50,760</time>
<s>我觉得也是偏狭的</s>
<time>653_00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:52,560</time>
<s>但是他说的美是启蒙</s>
<time>654_00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:53,280</time>
<s>你给解释解释</s>
<time>655_00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:54,720</time>
<s>艺术哲学跟美学</s>
<time>656_00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:56,520</time>
<s>就经常混在一起</s>
<time>657_00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,680</time>
<s>那美学这个词严格来说</s>
<time>658_00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:00,480</time>
<s>应该译成感受学</s>
<time>659_00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,000</time>
<s>并不是译成美学</s>
<time>660_00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:04,440</time>
<s>那么由于译成了美学</s>
<time>661_00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,320</time>
<s>就感觉有一种叫作美的东西</s>
<time>662_00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:08,040</time>
<s>它像味精一样</s>
<time>663_00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:09,840</time>
<s>它可以调料一样</s>
<time>664_00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:11,280</time>
<s>只要倒一点美进来</s>
<time>665_00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:12,720</time>
<s>这个事情变美</s>
<time>666_00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:13,800</time>
<s>但其实不是</s>
<time>667_00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:15,600</time>
<s>美是我们的一个体验</s>
<time>668_00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:17,040</time>
<s>我看到这件事情</s>
<time>669_00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:18,840</time>
<s>我感觉到了美</s>
<time>670_00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,640</time>
<s>我听到那个声音</s>
<time>671_00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:21,720</time>
<s>我感觉到了美</s>
<time>672_00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:23,520</time>
<s>所以它一定跟和谐有关</s>
<time>673_00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:24,600</time>
<s>跟韵律有关</s>
<time>674_00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,560</time>
<s>但是这个体验</s>
<time>675_00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,160</time>
<s>慢慢地跟艺术体验就开始合一了</s>
<time>676_00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,320</time>
<s>本来基本上我觉得</s>
<time>677_00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,840</time>
<s>就是说我们觉得什么样的风景美</s>
<time>678_00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:38,280</time>
<s>共性还比较大</s>
<time>679_00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:39,720</time>
<s>但觉得什么样的艺术美</s>
<time>680_00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:41,160</time>
<s>共性就没那么大了</s>
<time>681_00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:42,960</time>
<s>就差别就很大了</s>
<time>682_00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,120</time>
<s>所以有时候我们是在谈美</s>
<time>683_00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,800</time>
<s>有时候我们是在谈艺术</s>
<time>684_00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,320</time>
<s>那么我们的艺术经验</s>
<time>685_00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,480</time>
<s>其实往往不是舒服的</s>
<time>686_00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:56,640</time>
<s>就是我们其实</s>
<time>687_00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:58,800</time>
<s>我仔细地研究过</s>
<time>688_00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:00,240</time>
<s>就是让大家课堂上</s>
<time>689_00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:01,680</time>
<s>组织学生做工作坊</s>
<time>690_00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:03,120</time>
<s>描述你的艺术经验</s>
<time>691_00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,640</time>
<s>有的人说好像被闹钟叫醒一样</s>
<time>692_00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,520</time>
<s>有的人说好像洗了个澡一样</s>
<time>693_00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,480</time>
<s>所以这里面艺术作用你的方式</s>
<time>694_00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,000</time>
<s>分层次的</s>
<time>695_00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:16,080</time>
<s>有很猛的</s>
<time>696_00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:16,800</time>
<s>那个叫震撼</s>
<time>697_00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,400</time>
<s>有触动像打你一下的</s>
<time>698_00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,200</time>
<s>也有非常轻微的</s>
<time>699_00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:23,640</time>
<s>润物细无声的</s>
<time>700_00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,520</time>
<s>熏陶陶冶</s>
<time>701_00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:28,320</time>
<s>就是你一张书法挂在那儿</s>
<time>702_00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,480</time>
<s>你从来不会拿一个射灯打着它</s>
<time>703_00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:32,280</time>
<s>也不会站在前面认真地看它</s>
<time>704_00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:33,720</time>
<s>但挂它三十年</s>
<time>705_00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,320</time>
<s>渗透进你这个人里面</s>
<time>706_00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:38,400</time>
<s>它那个润物细无声的</s>
<time>707_00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:39,480</time>
<s>不见得比</s>
<time>708_00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:42,360</time>
<s>不见得没那个震撼高级</s>
<time>709_00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:43,440</time>
<s>老想震撼人的</s>
<time>710_00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,240</time>
<s>反倒很贱是吧</s>
<time>711_00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:46,320</time>
<s>老想扑到你面前</s>
<time>712_00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,200</time>
<s>跟你互动的那种艺术</s>
<time>713_00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:50,280</time>
<s>反而很贱</s>
<time>714_00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,440</time>
<s>所以它本身从作用方式上</s>
<time>715_00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,680</time>
<s>有轻到重的很多种档次</s>
<time>716_00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,560</time>
<s>你刚开始碰到艺术的时候</s>
<time>717_00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,000</time>
<s>感觉往往是怎么可以这样</s>
<time>718_00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:00,720</time>
<s>怎么会这样</s>
<time>719_00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,600</time>
<s>怎么会有人这样写字</s>
<time>720_00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,400</time>
<s>往往是不舒服的感觉</s>
<time>721_00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,280</time>
<s>然后紧接着</s>
<time>722_00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,080</time>
<s>其实这样也行</s>
<time>723_00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:11,160</time>
<s>还有点意思</s>
<time>724_00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:12,240</time>
<s>你接受了</s>
<time>725_00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,400</time>
<s>所以一开始往往是焦虑</s>
<time>726_00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:15,120</time>
<s>首先它不一样</s>
<time>727_00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:16,200</time>
<s>跟别的东西不一样</s>
<time>728_00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,440</time>
<s>有差异首先是有差异</s>
<time>729_00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:20,880</time>
<s>然后接着你焦虑不舒服</s>
<time>730_00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:22,680</time>
<s>先焦虑再愉悦</s>
<time>731_00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,640</time>
<s>对接着你觉得原来还可以这样</s>
<time>732_00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,800</time>
<s>你有一种恍然大悟的感觉</s>
<time>733_00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:30,600</time>
<s>这个时候这种感觉叫什么呢</s>
<time>734_00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:32,760</time>
<s>叫解放感</s>
<time>735_00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:33,840</time>
<s>你觉得自己以前</s>
<time>736_00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:34,920</time>
<s>被一个套路绑住了</s>
<time>737_00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,800</time>
<s>现在松绑了自由了</s>
<time>738_00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:38,880</time>
<s>解放了解放感</s>
<time>739_00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,040</time>
<s>比解放感再往前一步</s>
<time>740_00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,640</time>
<s>就是那种说像被闹钟叫醒的感觉</s>
<time>741_00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:45,720</time>
<s>是苏醒感</s>
<time>742_00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:47,160</time>
<s>你觉得自己过去一直在睡觉</s>
<time>743_00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:48,960</time>
<s>此刻被叫醒了</s>
<time>744_00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:51,120</time>
<s>这个被叫醒的感觉</s>
<time>745_00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:52,560</time>
<s>就是我说的启蒙</s>
<time>746_00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,440</time>
<s>启蒙不就是一个人眼前</s>
<time>747_00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:56,520</time>
<s>以前蒙着一块布</s>
<time>748_00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:57,960</time>
<s>现在把这块布给你掀掉了</s>
<time>749_00:24:58,320 --> 00:24:59,040</time>
<s>唤醒人是吧</s>
<time>750_00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,200</time>
<s>这个邱老师</s>
<time>751_00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:01,920</time>
<s>你不要忘了</s>
<time>752_00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,800</time>
<s>他是实验艺术学院的院长</s>
<time>753_00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,760</time>
<s>所以我听他的很多这个讲述</s>
<time>754_00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:10,200</time>
<s>也帮助我能够理解一点儿</s>
<time>755_00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:11,280</time>
<s>咱们现在看不懂的</s>
<time>756_00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,440</time>
<s>这种所谓的当代的艺术</s>
<time>757_00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,320</time>
<s>我觉得当代艺术更好懂</s>
<time>758_00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,120</time>
<s>对我们平常生活</s>
<time>759_00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,000</time>
<s>可能都是循规蹈矩的一个套子</s>
<time>760_00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:22,080</time>
<s>好比说我们要住在</s>
<time>761_00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:23,520</time>
<s>这样一个房子里</s>
<time>762_00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:24,960</time>
<s>我们要这样一个生活方式</s>
<time>763_00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:26,040</time>
<s>但有些时候你看到</s>
<time>764_00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:26,760</time>
<s>一个当代的</s>
<time>765_00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:28,920</time>
<s>一个装置的一个艺术</s>
<time>766_00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:30,000</time>
<s>它的意思</s>
<time>767_00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:31,800</time>
<s>它的启蒙这个点在哪儿</s>
<time>768_00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:32,520</time>
<s>就比如说</s>
<time>769_00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:34,320</time>
<s>一件事情原来可以</s>
<time>770_00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,480</time>
<s>不循我们过去的套路来</s>
<time>771_00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:37,920</time>
<s>它给一个启发</s>
<time>772_00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,160</time>
<s>就是我们可以自由地想对吧</s>
<time>773_00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,040</time>
<s>你不一定这个先吃饭再睡觉</s>
<time>774_00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:45,840</time>
<s>你也可以先睡觉再吃饭</s>
<time>775_00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,640</time>
<s>就是改变一些（惯性思维）</s>
<time>776_00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:49,800</time>
<s>是原来世界是这样的</s>
<time>777_00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:51,240</time>
<s>原来世界还可以这样</s>
<time>778_00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:52,320</time>
<s>还可以这样</s>
<time>779_00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:53,400</time>
<s>所以你比如说我就很感兴趣</s>
<time>780_00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,920</time>
<s>他教他女儿</s>
<time>781_00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:57,000</time>
<s>他做一种</s>
<time>782_00:25:57,360 --> 00:25:58,800</time>
<s>这个训练</s>
<time>783_00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,680</time>
<s>就比如说这个桃子是飞机</s>
<time>784_00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:03,120</time>
<s>对</s>
<time>785_00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:05,640</time>
<s>我用飞机刮胡子</s>
<time>786_00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,080</time>
<s>六哥是马桶不是</s>
<time>787_00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,040</time>
<s>六哥是冰箱对吧</s>
<time>788_00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:12,480</time>
<s>我还是更喜欢马桶这个定位</s>
<time>789_00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:14,280</time>
<s>马桶盖</s>
<time>790_00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,240</time>
<s>比如说灯光是外星人是吧</s>
<time>791_00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,400</time>
<s>这个王羲之是块石头</s>
<time>792_00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:21,120</time>
<s>是块砖头</s>
<time>793_00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:22,560</time>
<s>我用灯光来扫地</s>
<time>794_00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:24,000</time>
<s>这是在干什么</s>
<time>795_00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,960</time>
<s>这个其实是在制造隐喻</s>
<time>796_00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:28,680</time>
<s>那么制造隐喻</s>
<time>797_00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:30,480</time>
<s>就是在无关的事物之间</s>
<time>798_00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:31,920</time>
<s>去搭建联想</s>
<time>799_00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:32,640</time>
<s>但这个联想</s>
<time>800_00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,800</time>
<s>有一些联想是胡说</s>
<time>801_00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,400</time>
<s>但有一些联想就能够接通某种</s>
<time>802_00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,640</time>
<s>某种像是真相一样的东西</s>
<time>803_00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:43,800</time>
<s>其实我们今天的日常语言</s>
<time>804_00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,600</time>
<s>都是古代的诗歌</s>
<time>805_00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:47,760</time>
<s>我们说这个</s>
<time>806_00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,240</time>
<s>涛哥是个成功的这个</s>
<time>807_00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:56,400</time>
<s>风流调悦</s>
<time>808_00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,560</time>
<s>登峰造极的艺人</s>
<time>809_00:26:58,920 --> 00:26:59,640</time>
<s>主要是风流是吗</s>
<time>810_00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,520</time>
<s>我们登峰造极就默认等于成功</s>
<time>811_00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,680</time>
<s>就其实它是个隐喻</s>
<time>812_00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,120</time>
<s>像是一个爬到了山顶</s>
<time>813_00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:07,560</time>
<s>我们说我这里有个伤口</s>
<time>814_00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,080</time>
<s>受伤的地方像一张嘴</s>
<time>815_00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,240</time>
<s>这其实都是曾经是诗歌</s>
<time>816_00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:13,680</time>
<s>但是它今天沉淀进</s>
<time>817_00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:14,760</time>
<s>我们的日常语言</s>
<time>818_00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:16,560</time>
<s>我们不再觉得它是诗歌</s>
<time>819_00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:17,640</time>
<s>你说我有个伤口</s>
<time>820_00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,800</time>
<s>大家不觉得这么说美了</s>
<time>821_00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:21,240</time>
<s>你说我随入情网</s>
<time>822_00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,040</time>
<s>大家不觉得你这句话美</s>
<time>823_00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,560</time>
<s>这个时候你就得创造新的隐喻</s>
<time>824_00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,080</time>
<s>说我这几天喜欢一个女孩子</s>
<time>825_00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:30,960</time>
<s>好像一直在雾里边走一样</s>
<time>826_00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:32,400</time>
<s>以后可能慢慢地</s>
<time>827_00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:33,480</time>
<s>这个词就被接受了</s>
<time>828_00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,360</time>
<s>大家说这几天他陷入了情雾</s>
<time>829_00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:38,880</time>
<s>大家得去造新的东西</s>
<time>830_00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:40,320</time>
<s>才会感觉到美</s>
<time>831_00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,200</time>
<s>这时候这个东西才能启示你</s>
<time>832_00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,360</time>
<s>就是因为那种感觉</s>
<time>833_00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,880</time>
<s>是过去所有的词都描述不了的</s>
<time>834_00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,400</time>
<s>所以要去创造一个词来描述</s>
<time>835_00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:51,480</time>
<s>对他说的好像</s>
<time>836_00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,360</time>
<s>就是当代艺术的另一种功能</s>
<time>837_00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,160</time>
<s>就是启发人异想天开</s>
<time>838_00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:57,960</time>
<s>你看现在做任何工作</s>
<time>839_00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,120</time>
<s>创意都非常地重要</s>
<time>840_00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:01,560</time>
<s>可是我们现在会感觉到</s>
<time>841_00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,440</time>
<s>有些时候哪怕是年轻人</s>
<time>842_00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,960</time>
<s>好像也是生活在一百年前</s>
<time>843_00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:08,400</time>
<s>就它也是一个套子</s>
<time>844_00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:10,920</time>
<s>所以你特别希望有一些方法</s>
<time>845_00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:11,640</time>
<s>能够让他就是说</s>
<time>846_00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:13,440</time>
<s>一个事也可以那么做</s>
<time>847_00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,240</time>
<s>这样就有助于激发创意</s>
<time>848_00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,040</time>
<s>这算是个社会功能吧</s>
<time>849_00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,200</time>
<s>但是实际上就是你们刚才</s>
<time>850_00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,360</time>
<s>我就说回到你们刚才两个讲的</s>
<time>851_00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,520</time>
<s>咱们本来不是说这个审美吗</s>
<time>852_00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:26,400</time>
<s>我们不要说得那么玄</s>
<time>853_00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:28,200</time>
<s>可是为什么我们觉得</s>
<time>854_00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,000</time>
<s>我们身边很多东西不美</s>
<time>855_00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,240</time>
<s>为什么我们觉得我们很需要美育</s>
<time>856_00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,040</time>
<s>或甚至就作为一个民族</s>
<time>857_00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:36,480</time>
<s>现在很需要美育</s>
<time>858_00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:37,920</time>
<s>为什么我们心里就觉得</s>
<time>859_00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,440</time>
<s>很多人不知道什么叫好看难看</s>
<time>860_00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:41,520</time>
<s>但这种感觉</s>
<time>861_00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:42,960</time>
<s>我不知道是不是正确的</s>
