<time>1718_00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:43,920</time>
<s>不管它采用了什么技法</s>
<time>1719_00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,080</time>
<s>但它那种巨大的体量感</s>
<time>1720_00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:48,600</time>
<s>其实我觉得人是对能量有感觉</s>
<time>1721_00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:50,760</time>
<s>就像你见到一个气场很强的人</s>
<time>1722_00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:51,480</time>
<s>对</s>
<time>1723_00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:53,280</time>
<s>他整个带来的那种力量感</s>
<time>1724_00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:55,440</time>
<s>也许如果你懂道教文化</s>
<time>1725_00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:57,600</time>
<s>你可以从里面解读很多符号</s>
<time>1726_00:51:57,960 --> 00:51:58,680</time>
<s>但是那是另一回事儿</s>
<time>1727_00:51:59,040 --> 00:51:59,400</time>
<s>对</s>
<time>1728_00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:01,200</time>
<s>我相信即便我不知道</s>
<time>1729_00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:03,000</time>
<s>金字塔是干什么的</s>
<time>1730_00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:04,440</time>
<s>但是我平生头一回</s>
<time>1731_00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:05,880</time>
<s>站在金字塔面前</s>
<time>1732_00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:08,040</time>
<s>我会觉得我像站在一个</s>
<time>1733_00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:10,200</time>
<s>叫咱们就说什么脉冲星面前一样</s>
<time>1734_00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:11,280</time>
<s>或者黑洞</s>
<time>1735_00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:13,440</time>
<s>专门有个叫巨大的沉默物</s>
<time>1736_00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:15,240</time>
<s>那个对人的震撼是非常</s>
<time>1737_00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:16,680</time>
<s>那就是直面自然</s>
<time>1738_00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,560</time>
<s>我们不需要宗教</s>
<time>1739_00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:20,280</time>
<s>就是文化</s>
<time>1740_00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:22,440</time>
<s>甚至我可以不识字</s>
<time>1741_00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:23,880</time>
<s>但是有一种东西</s>
<time>1742_00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:25,320</time>
<s>甚至咱们就讲物理学</s>
<time>1743_00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:27,840</time>
<s>是不是这个能量的振动波</s>
<time>1744_00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:28,920</time>
<s>有些艺术真的</s>
<time>1745_00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:30,360</time>
<s>就能够达到这个程度</s>
<time>1746_00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:32,520</time>
<s>就是它不需要文化的装饰</s>
<time>1747_00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:34,320</time>
<s>你比如说</s>
<time>1748_00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,200</time>
<s>我就说我的审美经验</s>
<time>1749_00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:39,720</time>
<s>我小时候从来也咱们没那教育</s>
<time>1750_00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:41,160</time>
<s>也没见过青铜器</s>
<time>1751_00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:42,600</time>
<s>没有见过</s>
<time>1752_00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,120</time>
<s>头一回见到那个</s>
<time>1753_00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:46,920</time>
<s>那个很大的</s>
<time>1754_00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,160</time>
<s>那个青铜器上的那个造型</s>
<time>1755_00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:51,600</time>
<s>和那个花纹</s>
<time>1756_00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:53,040</time>
<s>你也不知道那画的</s>
<time>1757_00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:54,480</time>
<s>你也不知道那是什么</s>
<time>1758_00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:55,200</time>
<s>对</s>
<time>1759_00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:57,000</time>
<s>但是那种气息</s>
<time>1760_00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:58,080</time>
<s>你不可能不感觉到</s>
<time>1761_00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,600</time>
<s>这里面蕴含着巨大的力量</s>
<time>1762_00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:02,400</time>
<s>它有一种力量</s>
<time>1763_00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:03,120</time>
<s>它有一种</s>
<time>1764_00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:04,200</time>
<s>它就像一个能量物</s>
<time>1765_00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:04,920</time>
<s>对</s>
<time>1766_00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:05,640</time>
<s>这个我觉得</s>
<time>1767_00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:07,440</time>
<s>你说我是规训的</s>
<time>1768_00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:08,160</time>
<s>是规训的</s>
<time>1769_00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:08,880</time>
<s>也可能吧</s>
<time>1770_00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:09,960</time>
<s>这是因为我们</s>
<time>1771_00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,840</time>
<s>和青铜器时代的中国人</s>
<time>1772_00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:13,920</time>
<s>和梵高</s>
<time>1773_00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:15,720</time>
<s>依然属于在不同意义上</s>
<time>1774_00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:17,520</time>
<s>依然属于同一个文化共同体</s>
<time>1775_00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:19,320</time>
<s>山顶洞人</s>
<time>1776_00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:20,400</time>
<s>或者尼安德特人</s>
<time>1777_00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:22,200</time>
<s>肯定不会觉得梵高美</s>
<time>1778_00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:22,920</time>
<s>对</s>
<time>1779_00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:25,080</time>
<s>但是我老觉得这种一个艺术品</s>
<time>1780_00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:26,880</time>
<s>它所形成的气场</s>
<time>1781_00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:28,680</time>
<s>能够和这个观看者之间</s>
<time>1782_00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:30,120</time>
<s>形成共鸣</s>
<time>1783_00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:32,280</time>
<s>这个是有脑神经机制</s>
<time>1784_00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:34,800</time>
<s>有纯粹的视觉规律</s>
<time>1785_00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:35,880</time>
<s>两个人之间</s>
<time>1786_00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:36,600</time>
<s>那么也有文化的规律</s>
<time>1787_00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:38,040</time>
<s>心有灵犀</s>
<time>1788_00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,200</time>
<s>突然间就共振了</s>
<time>1789_00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:41,640</time>
<s>那个东西不也是</s>
<time>1790_00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:43,080</time>
<s>两个能量体的这种</s>
<time>1791_00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:44,880</time>
<s>量子力学</s>
<time>1792_00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:46,680</time>
<s>刚才邱老师讲了</s>
<time>1793_00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,280</time>
<s>它毕竟是有某些机制</s>
<time>1794_00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,520</time>
<s>在大脑里面发生了作用</s>
<time>1795_00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:55,680</time>
<s>我们讲艺术家的表现力</s>
<time>1796_00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:57,480</time>
<s>其实就是这件事情</s>
<time>1797_00:53:57,840 --> 00:53:58,920</time>
<s>就是他知道</s>
<time>1798_00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:00,360</time>
<s>你看到这个艺术作品之后</s>
<time>1799_00:54:00,720 --> 00:54:01,080</time>
<s>他能操控你</s>
<time>1800_00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:02,880</time>
<s>对他这个表现力</s>
<time>1801_00:54:03,240 --> 00:54:03,960</time>
<s>给你能带来</s>
<time>1802_00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:05,040</time>
<s>那么一般艺术家</s>
<time>1803_00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:06,120</time>
<s>带不来这个表现力</s>
<time>1804_00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:07,560</time>
<s>他能够带来</s>
<time>1805_00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:09,720</time>
<s>所以还是和你的</s>
<time>1806_00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:10,800</time>
<s>日常生活经验有关</s>
<time>1807_00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,680</time>
<s>而他能够理解你的</s>
<time>1808_00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:15,840</time>
<s>一般人的日常生活经验里面</s>
<time>1809_00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:18,000</time>
<s>是缺少这一部分</s>
<time>1810_00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,160</time>
<s>不常见</s>
<time>1811_00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:20,880</time>
<s>它给你带来</s>
<time>1812_00:54:21,240 --> 00:54:21,960</time>
<s>可接受不常见</s>
<time>1813_00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:23,400</time>
<s>所以咱们刚才讲就是说</s>
<time>1814_00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:25,560</time>
<s>○他做这个审美的测试的时候</s>
<time>1815_00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:27,720</time>
<s>同时问你一个问题</s>
<time>1816_00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:32,040</time>
<s>你回答了美不美丑之后</s>
<time>1817_00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:32,760</time>
<s>他问你</s>
<time>1818_00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:35,640</time>
<s>你理解不理解这个审美对象</s>
<time>1819_00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:37,800</time>
<s>结果是什么呢</s>
<time>1820_00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:40,680</time>
<s>美的那一部分</s>
<time>1821_00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:42,120</time>
<s>基本上都是理解的</s>
<time>1822_00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:46,080</time>
<s>丑和一般的</s>
<time>1823_00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:47,520</time>
<s>就是说不出来什么的</s>
<time>1824_00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:48,240</time>
<s>可以是理解的</s>
<time>1825_00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:50,040</time>
<s>可以是不理解的都是</s>
<time>1826_00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,200</time>
<s>所以你理解了也可以说它丑</s>
<time>1827_00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:52,920</time>
<s>不理解也可以说它丑</s>
<time>1828_00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:54,720</time>
<s>但是美这一部分</s>
<time>1829_00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:56,880</time>
<s>一般你都能说出个道道儿来</s>
<time>1830_00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:59,400</time>
<s>所以这就是说</s>
<time>1831_00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:01,920</time>
<s>一定要和你的价值观产生共鸣</s>
<time>1832_00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,520</time>
<s>否则你不会完全无缘无故地</s>
<time>1833_00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:06,240</time>
<s>感觉到美</s>
<time>1834_00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:07,320</time>
<s>这就是邱老师讲的</s>
<time>1835_00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,560</time>
<s>还是和这种教规是有关系的</s>
<time>1836_00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:11,640</time>
<s>还是和规训有关</s>
<time>1837_00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:13,080</time>
<s>还有一个</s>
<time>1838_00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:15,240</time>
<s>反正我对艺术这件事情</s>
<time>1839_00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:17,760</time>
<s>一贯是比较喜欢祛魅的</s>
<time>1840_00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:20,280</time>
<s>就是用科学眼光来看待</s>
<time>1841_00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,880</time>
<s>对那么因为大家会把艺术经验</s>
<time>1842_00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:24,960</time>
<s>描述得很神秘</s>
<time>1843_00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:25,680</time>
<s>对</s>
<time>1844_00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:27,840</time>
<s>我们文艺复兴的时候</s>
<time>1845_00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:29,280</time>
<s>达·芬奇用他那种方式</s>
<time>1846_00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:30,720</time>
<s>才能为当时的人类</s>
<time>1847_00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:32,520</time>
<s>带来惊奇感</s>
<time>1848_00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:33,240</time>
<s>到了毕加索时代</s>
<time>1849_00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:35,040</time>
<s>毕加索只有用这种方式</s>
<time>1850_00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:37,560</time>
<s>才能为那个时代的人类</s>
<time>1851_00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:38,280</time>
<s>带来惊奇感</s>
<time>1852_00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:40,800</time>
<s>所以艺术家功能不变</s>
<time>1853_00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:42,240</time>
<s>都是为了制造这些感觉</s>
<time>1854_00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:44,040</time>
<s>但是为了达到同样的效果</s>
<time>1855_00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,200</time>
<s>他必须不断地翻新他的手法</s>
<time>1856_00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:46,920</time>
<s>对</s>
<time>1857_00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:49,080</time>
<s>才能避免审美疲劳的发生</s>
<time>1858_00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:50,520</time>
<s>我们因为做艺术</s>
<time>1859_00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:51,240</time>
<s>我们太知道了</s>
<time>1860_00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:53,040</time>
<s>这就是一个手艺活儿</s>
<time>1861_00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:54,840</time>
<s>然后我们有一整套的秘密</s>
<time>1862_00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:56,640</time>
<s>知道怎么让你产生那些感觉</s>
<time>1863_00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:57,360</time>
<s>那些感觉</s>
<time>1864_00:55:57,720 --> 00:55:58,080</time>
<s>我们教学生</s>
<time>1865_00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:00,240</time>
<s>不就是教这些手艺吗</s>
<time>1866_00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:00,960</time>
<s>对对对</s>
<time>1867_00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:02,760</time>
<s>因为我是闽南人嘛</s>
<time>1868_00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:03,480</time>
<s>我从小学书法</s>
<time>1869_00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:05,640</time>
<s>是弘一法师这个系统</s>
<time>1870_00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:06,360</time>
<s>很多人就说</s>
<time>1871_00:56:06,720 --> 00:56:07,800</time>
<s>弘一法师因为是高僧</s>
<time>1872_00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:09,960</time>
<s>道德高尚心平气和</s>
<time>1873_00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,120</time>
<s>所以写出来的字没有烟火气</s>
<time>1874_00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:13,200</time>
<s>你怎么解释呢</s>
<time>1875_00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:14,640</time>
<s>你挂那每天就觉得</s>
<time>1876_00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:16,440</time>
<s>这张字好心平气和</s>
<time>1877_00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:18,960</time>
<s>突然间今天邱老师来了是吧</s>
<time>1878_00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:20,760</time>
<s>我告诉你这张是品</s>
<time>1879_00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:22,920</time>
<s>它们并没有妨碍你</s>
<time>1880_00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:25,080</time>
<s>过去那二十年一直被它打动</s>
<time>1881_00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:27,600</time>
<s>为什么品照样能打动人呢</s>
<time>1882_00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,840</time>
<s>我觉得这才是最解构那个</s>
<time>1883_00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:31,560</time>
<s>最祛魅的</s>
<time>1884_00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:34,080</time>
<s>但是容我愚味</s>
<time>1885_00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:35,520</time>
<s>就是这个</s>
<time>1886_00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:36,600</time>
<s>比如说我刚才讲的这个</s>
<time>1887_00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:38,400</time>
<s>《溪山行旅图》是吧</s>
<time>1888_00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:40,920</time>
<s>它即便不是范宽画的</s>
<time>1889_00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:41,640</time>
<s>对它照样能打动人</s>
<time>1890_00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:43,080</time>
<s>它即便是品</s>
<time>1891_00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:44,520</time>
<s>它一样能打动我</s>
<time>1892_00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:46,320</time>
<s>而且在展的时候</s>
<time>1893_00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,200</time>
<s>实际上后来历朝历代都有仿的</s>
<time>1894_00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:50,640</time>
<s>这个故宫一起都展出的</s>
<time>1895_00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:51,360</time>
<s>对</s>
<time>1896_00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:52,800</time>
<s>没有一个比得上</s>
<time>1897_00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:55,320</time>
<s>不仅没有一个比得上</s>
<time>1898_00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:57,120</time>
<s>你说到今天为止</s>
<time>1899_00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:58,560</time>
<s>你说这是你们的手艺</s>
<time>1900_00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:00,000</time>
<s>这是你们的法术</s>
<time>1901_00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:00,720</time>
<s>可是</s>
<time>1902_00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:03,240</time>
<s>将近一千年来</s>
<time>1903_00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:04,320</time>
<s>我没有见过</s>
<time>1904_00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:06,120</time>
<s>我这么说话有点儿大吗</s>
<time>1905_00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:10,800</time>
<s>我没有见过第二张中国画</s>
<time>1906_00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:13,680</time>
<s>能让我产生类似于面对</s>
<time>1907_00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:15,840</time>
<s>《溪山行旅图》那样的</s>
<time>1908_00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,000</time>
<s>能量感和冲击感</s>
<time>1909_00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:20,880</time>
<s>和境界的东西</s>
<time>1910_00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:21,960</time>
<s>那么你说如果这是</s>
<time>1911_00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:23,040</time>
<s>你们玩儿熟了的技术</s>
<time>1912_00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,560</time>
<s>能达到必然性的艺术作品少之又少</s>
<time>1913_00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:27,000</time>
<s>还是说你们对我规训不足</s>
<time>1914_00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:27,720</time>
<s>不是</s>
<time>1915_00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:29,880</time>
<s>导致我欣赏不了你们的法术</s>
<time>1916_00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:30,960</time>
<s>我觉得艺术家可以做这个实验</s>
<time>1917_00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:33,480</time>
<s>就把品和真品放在一起</s>
<time>1918_00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:34,200</time>
<s>我其实我们现在在做</s>
<time>1919_00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:36,360</time>
<s>我期待你们做出一个这样的来</s>
<time>1920_00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:37,440</time>
<s>对能不能区分出来</s>
<time>1921_00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:38,880</time>
<s>我把那张画</s>
<time>1922_00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,040</time>
<s>买了那个高仿的复制品</s>
<time>1923_00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:42,840</time>
<s>就挂在我的小阁楼里</s>
<time>1924_00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:44,640</time>
<s>我天天都看</s>
<time>1925_00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:46,440</time>
<s>我每次看我都觉得</s>
<time>1926_00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:47,520</time>
<s>都好牛</s>
<time>1927_00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:48,240</time>
<s>太棒了</s>
<time>1928_00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:49,320</time>
<s>那你是艺术家气质</s>
<time>1929_00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:51,840</time>
<s>那就是你跟那张画有缘分嘛</s>
<time>1930_00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:53,280</time>
<s>不还有很多</s>
<time>1931_00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:54,720</time>
<s>就为什么艺术品</s>
<time>1932_00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,240</time>
<s>照你的理论讲是保鲜期对吧</s>
<time>1933_00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,840</time>
<s>那我有很多保鲜期长的复制品</s>
<time>1934_00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:03,000</time>
<s>就是工作繁忙</s>
<time>1935_00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:04,800</time>
<s>一看每次展卷</s>
<time>1936_00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:06,960</time>
<s>你就哪怕是《兰亭集序》</s>
<time>1937_00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:08,760</time>
<s>每次看确实觉得好</s>
<time>1938_00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:12,000</time>
<s>就是谈艺术跟谈美是两回事</s>
<time>1939_00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:14,520</time>
<s>就美学和艺术哲学是两回事</s>
<time>1940_00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,120</time>
<s>比如说涛哥看王羲之</s>
<time>1941_00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:18,840</time>
<s>还是觉得美</s>
<time>1942_00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:21,000</time>
<s>看《溪山行旅图》还是觉得美</s>
<time>1943_00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:22,440</time>
<s>那是因为</s>
<time>1944_00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:24,240</time>
<s>就是因为它不是</s>
<time>1945_00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,040</time>
<s>他在看《溪山行旅图》的时候</s>
<time>1946_00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:27,480</time>
<s>不是把它当作</s>
<time>1947_00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:29,280</time>
<s>像我们在搞艺术的人</s>
<time>1948_00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:30,360</time>
<s>这样的状态</s>
<time>1949_00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:31,440</time>
<s>我们搞艺术的人</s>
<time>1950_00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:35,400</time>
<s>就不能再觉得王羲之美了</s>
<time>1951_00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:37,200</time>
<s>否则你就没有创新能力了</s>
<time>1952_00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:38,280</time>
<s>对你明白吗</s>
<time>1953_00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:39,720</time>
<s>我们像是</s>
<time>1954_00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:42,240</time>
<s>就好像说您是科学家</s>
<time>1955_00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:43,680</time>
<s>我们是科学的消费者</s>
<time>1956_00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:45,480</time>
<s>他是艺术家</s>
<time>1957_00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:47,280</time>
<s>我们是艺术的消费者</s>
<time>1958_00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:48,000</time>
<s>对</s>
<time>1959_00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:49,080</time>
<s>它是这个区别</s>
<time>1960_00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:50,880</time>
<s>所以刚才邱老师讲</s>
<time>1961_00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,480</time>
<s>这个艺术和美不是一回事儿</s>
<time>1962_00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,000</time>
<s>我认为科学艺术然后美</s>
<time>1963_00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:58,440</time>
<s>这是三件不同的事情</s>
<time>1964_00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:00,600</time>
<s>所以科学有美的地方</s>
<time>1965_00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:02,760</time>
<s>但科学本质上不是这个</s>
<time>1966_00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:03,480</time>
<s>它还是别的</s>
<time>1967_00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:04,920</time>
<s>艺术里面也有美的地方</s>
<time>1968_00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:07,800</time>
<s>但艺术本质上不完全是为了美</s>
<time>1969_00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:08,880</time>
<s>您给我们讲讲</s>
<time>1970_00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:10,320</time>
<s>什么是科学的美</s>
<time>1971_00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:11,760</time>
<s>我一直不太理解</s>
<time>1972_00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:14,280</time>
<s>对这个当然也就涉及到</s>
<time>1973_00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,080</time>
<s>科学的审美观</s>
<time>1974_00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:17,520</time>
<s>所以你比如说</s>
<time>1975_00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:20,040</time>
<s>我在书里面也举了例子对吧</s>
<time>1976_00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:21,120</time>
<s>我说这不断地</s>
<time>1977_00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:22,920</time>
<s>我们会看到文章列出来</s>
<time>1978_00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:25,800</time>
<s>这个十大最美数学公式</s>
<time>1979_00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:26,880</time>
<s>过一段又来</s>
<time>1980_00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:28,320</time>
<s>十大物理最美公式</s>
<time>1981_00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:30,480</time>
<s>又来个十大数学最美公式</s>
<time>1982_00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:32,280</time>
<s>你发现这里面的十大之间</s>
<time>1983_00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:33,360</time>
<s>没有共性</s>
<time>1984_00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:35,160</time>
<s>共性非常少</s>
<time>1985_00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:35,880</time>
<s>换句话说</s>
<time>1986_00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:38,400</time>
<s>不同的数学家</s>
<time>1987_00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:40,200</time>
<s>不同的科学家挑出来这个单子</s>
<time>1988_00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:42,720</time>
<s>它是不一样的</s>
<time>1989_00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:44,160</time>
<s>但是你又不能说</s>
<time>1990_00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:46,680</time>
<s>这个物理学家眼瞎了</s>
<time>1991_00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:48,120</time>
<s>他认为的美不该美</s>
<time>1992_00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:50,280</time>
<s>他认为的美他觉得美</s>
<time>1993_00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:52,800</time>
<s>另外一个物理学家认为的美</s>
<time>1994_00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:54,600</time>
<s>是这个物理学家觉得美</s>
<time>1995_00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:57,120</time>
<s>比如说最美的物理方程是哪个</s>
<time>1996_00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:58,920</time>
<s>我跟我一个同事</s>
<time>1997_01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,520</time>
<s>我说这个E=mc2</s>
<time>1998_01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:03,240</time>
<s>这个是最美</s>
<time>1999_01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:05,040</time>
<s>他说麦克斯韦方程是最美的</s>
<time>2000_01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:06,840</time>
<s>我说咱们两个说的</s>
<time>2001_01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:07,920</time>
<s>都是我们认为的美</s>
<time>2002_01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:10,080</time>
<s>但是我们把这两个公式</s>
<time>2003_01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:12,240</time>
<s>拿去咱们到工地上去</s>
<time>2004_01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:14,040</time>
<s>请这个工地上的</s>
<time>2005_01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:15,840</time>
<s>这个兄弟看看哪个美的时候</s>
<time>2006_01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:16,920</time>
<s>你们俩待一边儿去</s>
<time>2007_01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:18,000</time>
<s>哪个都不美对不对</s>
<time>2008_01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:21,600</time>
<s>我这旁边这个美女的照片更美</s>
<time>2009_01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:23,040</time>
<s>所以就是说</s>
<time>2010_01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:25,920</time>
<s>你首先这个价值观层面上</s>
<time>2011_01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:28,440</time>
<s>你怎么认识这个方程对吧</s>
<time>2012_01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:30,960</time>
<s>这是你的审美观来决定的</s>
<time>2013_01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:33,120</time>
<s>麦克斯韦方程他觉得美</s>
<time>2014_01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:34,560</time>
<s>那个方程的对称性</s>
<time>2015_01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:37,800</time>
<s>绝对地非常地妙</s>
<time>2016_01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,320</time>
<s>而且那么简单的方程</s>
<time>2017_01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:42,120</time>
<s>在当时看来就把当时非常</s>
<time>2018_01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:43,560</time>
<s>什么方程是不对称的</s>
<time>2019_01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:46,800</time>
<s>E=mc2就完全不对称</s>
<time>2020_01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:48,240</time>
<s>这边是E能量</s>
<time>2021_01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:49,320</time>
<s>那边是mc2</s>
<time>2022_01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:50,400</time>
<s>完全不对称对不对</s>
<time>2023_01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:51,840</time>
<s>字母得一样多</s>
<time>2024_01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:52,920</time>
<s>对呀它数也不一样</s>
<time>2025_01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:53,640</time>
<s>符号也不一样</s>
<time>2026_01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:54,360</time>
<s>这头上有平方</s>
<time>2027_01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:55,440</time>
<s>那个没平方</s>
<time>2028_01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:56,160</time>
<s>它怎么看也不对称</s>
<time>2029_01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:58,320</time>
<s>但是我觉得这个是最美的</s>
<time>2030_01:00:58,680 --> 01:00:59,040</time>
<s>因为为什么</s>
<time>2031_01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:00,480</time>
<s>但这个有简洁的美</s>
<time>2032_01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:01,560</time>
<s>它有简洁</s>
<time>2033_01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:02,640</time>
<s>但还有比这简洁的</s>
<time>2034_01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,160</time>
<s>但是我认为这个方程</s>
<time>2035_01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:06,240</time>
<s>我认为它美</s>
<time>2036_01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:07,680</time>
<s>是我的这个价值观</s>
<time>2037_01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:08,400</time>
<s>科学价值观</s>
<time>2038_01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:10,920</time>
<s>我认为一个科学的</s>
<time>2039_01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:13,440</time>
<s>一个定理也好公式也好</s>
<time>2040_01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:14,520</time>
<s>一个原理也好</s>
<time>2041_01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:16,680</time>
<s>它越深刻</s>
<time>2042_01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,200</time>
<s>适用的范围越广它越美</s>
<time>2043_01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:20,640</time>
<s>这是我认为的</s>
<time>2044_01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:21,720</time>
<s>这样因为它深刻</s>
<time>2045_01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:24,240</time>
<s>首先科学就是干这个事情的</s>
<time>2046_01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,120</time>
<s>就是遵从最底层的逻辑的原理的</s>
<time>2047_01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:28,200</time>
<s>这是我认为的</s>
<time>2048_01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:30,000</time>
<s>所以这是符合我的科学价值观</s>
<time>2049_01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:31,440</time>
<s>我认为它没缺陷</s>
<time>2050_01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:32,880</time>
<s>然后应用的范围</s>
<time>2051_01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:34,680</time>
<s>特别广的科学定律</s>
<time>2052_01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:37,200</time>
<s>又没有那么多对吧</s>
<time>2053_01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:38,280</time>
<s>你比如说麦克斯韦方程</s>
<time>2054_01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:40,800</time>
<s>它只适用于电学和磁学</s>
<time>2055_01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:42,960</time>
<s>它不能研究别的东西</s>
<time>2056_01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:45,480</time>
<s>但是E=mc2</s>
<time>2057_01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:47,640</time>
<s>宇宙当中所有的物质能量转换</s>
<time>2058_01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:49,800</time>
<s>声光电热全管</s>
<time>2059_01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:50,520</time>
<s>全部都管</s>
<time>2060_01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:53,760</time>
<s>至今为止没有发现违反的</s>
<time>2061_01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:54,840</time>
<s>它是个非常奇妙</s>
<time>2062_01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,360</time>
<s>在我看来这就是神一样的公式</s>
<time>2063_01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:00,600</time>
<s>因为这是从狭义相对论推出来的</s>
<time>2064_01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:02,040</time>
<s>跟量子力学没有任何关系</s>
<time>2065_01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:03,840</time>
<s>跟核物理没有任何关系</s>
<time>2066_01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:05,640</time>
<s>和其他任何事情都没有任何关系</s>
<time>2067_01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:07,800</time>
<s>然而现在所有的地方</s>
<time>2068_01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:09,600</time>
<s>全部它都能用</s>
<time>2069_01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:10,320</time>
<s>它也不违反</s>
<time>2070_01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:12,480</time>
<s>○所以这就是神一样的</s>
<time>2071_01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:13,920</time>
<s>所以我觉得这个东西很美</s>
<time>2072_01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:15,720</time>
<s>但是我那位朋友</s>
<time>2073_01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:16,800</time>
<s>是一位院士</s>
<time>2074_01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:19,320</time>
<s>他是研究等离子体的专家</s>
<time>2075_01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:21,480</time>
<s>他整天用的是麦克斯韦方程</s>
<time>2076_01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:22,200</time>
<s>用得滚瓜烂熟</s>
<time>2077_01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:24,000</time>
<s>他觉得这个方程太厉害了</s>
<time>2078_01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,960</time>
<s>不管多复杂的电现象</s>
<time>2079_01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:29,760</time>
<s>磁现象等离子体</s>
<time>2080_01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:32,280</time>
<s>它全都能够用来描述</s>
<time>2081_01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:33,360</time>
<s>用它写出来做计算</s>
<time>2082_01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:35,160</time>
<s>准得一塌糊涂</s>
<time>2083_01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:36,600</time>
<s>所以他觉得这个方程式</s>
<time>2084_01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:37,320</time>
<s>没缺陷</s>
<time>2085_01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:38,400</time>
<s>没缺陷不常见</s>
<time>2086_01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:39,840</time>
<s>再找不到这么厉害的方程</s>
<time>2087_01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:41,640</time>
<s>就是说所以这是我们两个的</s>
<time>2088_01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:43,800</time>
<s>价值观的不同所带来的</s>
<time>2089_01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:45,240</time>
<s>但是科学家的审美观</s>
<time>2090_01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:46,680</time>
<s>有时候会不会造成</s>
<time>2091_01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:48,120</time>
<s>甚至走火入魔的问题</s>
<time>2092_01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:49,200</time>
<s>会</s>
<time>2093_01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:51,720</time>
<s>有时候这是好的走火入魔</s>
<time>2094_01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:52,800</time>
<s>有时候是不好的</s>
<time>2095_01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:53,880</time>
<s>您讲讲不好的</s>
<time>2096_01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:56,400</time>
<s>这个不好的都存不下来</s>
<time>2097_01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:58,200</time>
<s>存下来的都是好的</s>
<time>2098_01:02:58,920 --> 01:02:59,280</time>
<s>都被淘汰了</s>
<time>2099_01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:00,360</time>
<s>咱像你比如说</s>
<time>2100_01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:02,160</time>
<s>我记得您讲过一个好的</s>
<time>2101_01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:03,600</time>
<s>就是说这个</s>
<time>2102_01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:04,320</time>
<s>杨振宁</s>
<time>2103_01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:06,120</time>
<s>杨振宁先生</s>
<time>2104_01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:09,000</time>
<s>这个杨-米尔斯理论</s>
<time>2105_01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:11,160</time>
<s>就是说他对这个</s>
<time>2106_01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:12,960</time>
<s>对称美的苛求</s>
<time>2107_01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:15,120</time>
<s>对杨先生特别强调</s>
<time>2108_01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:17,640</time>
<s>对他简直认为宇宙是对称的</s>
<time>2109_01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:19,080</time>
<s>对称才是美的</s>
<time>2110_01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:20,880</time>
<s>这是他深刻认识这个东西</s>
<time>2111_01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:22,320</time>
<s>他觉得别的都不算</s>
<time>2112_01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:24,840</time>
<s>所以他一生追求的就是</s>
<time>2113_01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:26,280</time>
<s>方程的对称美</s>
<time>2114_01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:27,720</time>
<s>当然非常有成就</s>
<time>2115_01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:28,440</time>
<s>也拿了诺奖什么</s>
<time>2116_01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:29,520</time>
<s>都是这个追求的结果</s>
<time>2117_01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:30,600</time>
<s>所以这是非常好的</s>
<time>2118_01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:32,400</time>
<s>那他甚至可以假设</s>
<time>2119_01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:33,840</time>
<s>所以杨-米尔斯方程</s>
<time>2120_01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:36,000</time>
<s>应该说比他拿诺奖的成就</s>
<time>2121_01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:37,800</time>
<s>那个成果还要更重大</s>
<time>2122_01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:39,240</time>
<s>是现代我们的</s>
<time>2123_01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:41,400</time>
<s>现代物理理论框架的</s>
<time>2124_01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:43,200</time>
<s>最底层的东西</s>
<time>2125_01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:45,000</time>
<s>是它杨-米尔斯方程</s>
<time>2126_01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:46,800</time>
<s>但他不能因为这个拿诺奖</s>
<time>2127_01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:47,520</time>
<s>为什么</s>
<time>2128_01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:49,320</time>
<s>这个方程太深刻了</s>
<time>2129_01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:50,400</time>
<s>你就没法</s>
<time>2130_01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:51,840</time>
<s>爱因斯坦也是靠光电效应也不是靠相对论</s>
<time>2131_01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:52,920</time>
<s>对太深了</s>
<time>2132_01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:55,080</time>
<s>所以这个东西他是先做的</s>
<time>2133_01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:56,160</time>
<s>不是靠这个拿诺奖</s>
<time>2134_01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:57,960</time>
<s>这个东西太深刻了</s>
<time>2135_01:03:58,320 --> 01:03:59,040</time>
<s>所以一直到今天</s>
<time>2136_01:03:59,400 --> 01:03:59,760</time>
<s>就是它深刻到</s>
<time>2137_01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:01,200</time>
<s>诺奖都不配给他发奖</s>
<time>2138_01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,440</time>
<s>对所以我说有些人的学术成就</s>
<time>2139_01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:05,880</time>
<s>有些人的水平</s>
<time>2140_01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:07,320</time>
<s>远远高于诺奖</s>
<time>2141_01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:09,120</time>
<s>爱因斯坦</s>
<time>2142_01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:10,920</time>
<s>霍金杨振宁先生</s>
<time>2143_01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:11,640</time>
<s>都属于这个</s>
