<time>2_00:00:15,882 --> 00:00:16,602</time>
<s>哇这个</s>
<time>3_00:00:21,282 --> 00:00:22,362</time>
<s>很长一段时间里</s>
<time>4_00:00:22,722 --> 00:00:24,882</time>
<s>香炉山仿佛是一个巨大的轴</s>
<time>5_00:00:25,602 --> 00:00:27,402</time>
<s>回到县城往西望</s>
<time>6_00:00:27,762 --> 00:00:28,842</time>
<s>看见青青的香炉山影</s>
<time>7_00:00:29,202 --> 00:00:29,922</time>
<s>就发愁</s>
<time>8_00:00:30,642 --> 00:00:31,002</time>
<s>又要离开家</s>
<time>9_00:00:31,362 --> 00:00:31,722</time>
<s>回到村里</s>
<time>10_00:00:32,082 --> 00:00:32,442</time>
<s>去苞谷了</s>
<time>11_00:00:33,522 --> 00:00:34,602</time>
<s>到了苗寨回头望</s>
<time>12_00:00:35,322 --> 00:00:37,122</time>
<s>看见隐隐的香炉峰顶</s>
<time>13_00:00:37,482 --> 00:00:38,562</time>
<s>免不了着手指算</s>
<time>14_00:00:38,922 --> 00:00:40,002</time>
<s>可以回家的日子</s>
<time>15_00:00:41,082 --> 00:00:41,442</time>
<s>葛老师</s>
<time>16_00:00:44,682 --> 00:00:45,761</time>
<s>比你想象的冷吗</s>
<time>17_00:00:47,202 --> 00:00:47,562</time>
<s>不算冷是吧</s>
<time>18_00:00:47,922 --> 00:00:48,282</time>
<s>不冷</s>
<time>19_00:00:49,002 --> 00:00:49,722</time>
<s>以前讲这个</s>
<time>20_00:00:50,802 --> 00:00:51,162</time>
<s>不怕慢</s>
<time>21_00:00:51,882 --> 00:00:52,242</time>
<s>只怕站</s>
<time>22_00:00:54,042 --> 00:00:54,762</time>
<s>爬山就是这样</s>
<time>23_00:00:56,922 --> 00:00:57,282</time>
<s>哇</s>
<time>24_00:00:57,642 --> 00:00:58,362</time>
<s>那是县城是吧</s>
<time>25_00:00:59,802 --> 00:01:00,162</time>
<s>我现在</s>
<time>26_00:01:00,522 --> 00:01:01,962</time>
<s>上了山已经搞不清楚</s>
<time>27_00:01:02,322 --> 00:01:03,042</time>
<s>方向是（哪）</s>
<time>28_00:01:07,001 --> 00:01:07,361</time>
<s>你看我在这</s>
<time>29_00:01:08,442 --> 00:01:09,162</time>
<s>这么多年</s>
<time>30_00:01:09,882 --> 00:01:10,602</time>
<s>没上过这上面</s>
<time>31_00:01:10,962 --> 00:01:11,682</time>
<s>第一次来这山上是吧</s>
<time>32_00:01:12,042 --> 00:01:12,762</time>
<s>第一次来这山上</s>
<time>33_00:01:15,281 --> 00:01:16,001</time>
<s>心情不一样</s>
<time>34_00:01:16,361 --> 00:01:18,162</time>
<s>以前就觉得是穷山恶水</s>
<time>35_00:01:18,882 --> 00:01:20,682</time>
<s>现在觉得山明水秀</s>
<time>36_00:01:25,362 --> 00:01:26,442</time>
<s>是不是回来心情还是</s>
<time>37_00:01:26,802 --> 00:01:27,162</time>
<s>挺不一样的</s>
<time>38_00:01:28,602 --> 00:01:29,682</time>
<s>怎么说呢</s>
<time>39_00:01:30,762 --> 00:01:31,482</time>
<s>这个地方实际上是我</s>
<time>40_00:01:31,842 --> 00:01:32,562</time>
<s>爱恨交加</s>
<time>41_00:01:37,242 --> 00:01:38,322</time>
<s>苦难和思想之间</s>
<time>42_00:01:38,682 --> 00:01:40,122</time>
<s>到底有什么样的关联</s>
<time>43_00:01:40,482 --> 00:01:42,282</time>
<s>我想肯定是有正的</s>
<time>44_00:01:42,642 --> 00:01:43,722</time>
<s>也有反的</s>
<time>45_00:01:44,082 --> 00:01:44,802</time>
<s>你比如说我当年</s>
<time>46_00:01:45,162 --> 00:01:46,962</time>
<s>在苗族地区插队</s>
<time>47_00:01:47,322 --> 00:01:49,482</time>
<s>我知道底层中国社会</s>
<time>48_00:01:49,842 --> 00:01:50,562</time>
<s>边缘的文化</s>
<time>49_00:01:50,922 --> 00:01:52,362</time>
<s>以及非汉族的文化</s>
<time>50_00:01:52,722 --> 00:01:54,522</time>
<s>他们应该是怎么样的</s>
<time>51_00:01:54,882 --> 00:01:56,322</time>
<s>但是对我也有负的</s>
<time>52_00:01:56,682 --> 00:01:58,842</time>
<s>曾经在那么底线的生活过</s>
<time>53_00:01:59,202 --> 00:02:00,282</time>
<s>也许我的底线很低</s>
<time>54_00:02:02,082 --> 00:02:04,602</time>
<s>有些人曾经在苦水里面泡过</s>
<time>55_00:02:04,962 --> 00:02:06,402</time>
<s>但是他是会反过来想</s>
<time>56_00:02:06,762 --> 00:02:07,122</time>
<s>你们都应该</s>
<time>57_00:02:07,482 --> 00:02:08,562</time>
<s>受一受那样的苦难</s>
<time>58_00:02:09,642 --> 00:02:10,002</time>
<s>那怎么办</s>
<time>59_00:02:12,522 --> 00:02:12,882</time>
<s>学文学的人</s>
<time>60_00:02:13,242 --> 00:02:15,042</time>
<s>很容易在正面看舞台</s>
<time>61_00:02:16,482 --> 00:02:17,201</time>
<s>英雄</s>
<time>62_00:02:17,562 --> 00:02:18,282</time>
<s>美人</s>
<time>63_00:02:18,642 --> 00:02:19,002</time>
<s>悲剧</s>
<time>64_00:02:19,362 --> 00:02:20,082</time>
<s>喜剧</s>
<time>65_00:02:20,442 --> 00:02:21,882</time>
<s>你就跟他同悲共喜</s>
<time>66_00:02:22,241 --> 00:02:24,042</time>
<s>学历史的人是转到后台去</s>
<time>67_00:02:24,762 --> 00:02:26,201</time>
<s>看你卸妆了以后是什么样的</s>
<time>68_00:02:58,242 --> 00:02:58,962</time>
<s>包插门坐崔这</s>
<time>69_00:02:59,322 --> 00:03:00,042</time>
<s>我还是想问您</s>
<time>70_00:03:00,402 --> 00:03:01,122</time>
<s>比如对一个</s>
<time>71_00:03:01,482 --> 00:03:02,202</time>
<s>中国思想史上的一个</s>
<time>72_00:03:02,562 --> 00:03:03,282</time>
<s>门外汉</s>
<time>73_00:03:03,641 --> 00:03:04,722</time>
<s>所谓中国历史的本质是什么</s>
<time>74_00:03:05,082 --> 00:03:06,522</time>
<s>中国思想的本质是什么</s>
<time>75_00:03:06,882 --> 00:03:07,962</time>
<s>因为您在写这些书的时候</s>
<time>76_00:03:08,322 --> 00:03:08,682</time>
<s>肯定也要面对</s>
<time>77_00:03:09,042 --> 00:03:10,122</time>
<s>这样的一个问题</s>
<time>78_00:03:10,482 --> 00:03:11,562</time>
<s>还是说这种问题重要吗</s>
<time>79_00:03:14,082 --> 00:03:16,242</time>
<s>我觉得我不是太</s>
<time>80_00:03:18,042 --> 00:03:18,762</time>
<s>去追</s>
<time>81_00:03:19,122 --> 00:03:19,842</time>
<s>追求那个终极答案</s>
<time>82_00:03:20,922 --> 00:03:22,002</time>
<s>你比如说我理解的</s>
<time>83_00:03:22,362 --> 00:03:24,522</time>
<s>中国历史的政治文化的核心</s>
<time>84_00:03:24,882 --> 00:03:25,962</time>
<s>也算是一个回答</s>
<time>85_00:03:26,322 --> 00:03:28,122</time>
<s>但是你要说再抽象出来</s>
<time>86_00:03:28,482 --> 00:03:29,202</time>
<s>再往上走</s>
<time>87_00:03:30,642 --> 00:03:31,002</time>
<s>好像</s>
<time>88_00:03:31,722 --> 00:03:33,522</time>
<s>我们很难有这样的一个</s>
<time>89_00:03:35,322 --> 00:03:36,402</time>
<s>终极的答案</s>
<time>90_00:03:36,762 --> 00:03:37,482</time>
<s>包括白鲁恂当年</s>
<time>91_00:03:37,842 --> 00:03:38,202</time>
<s>说中国的那句话</s>
<time>92_00:03:38,562 --> 00:03:39,282</time>
<s>一个伪装成国家的文明体</s>
<time>93_00:03:39,642 --> 00:03:40,722</time>
<s>“一个伪装成国家的文明体”影</s>
<time>94_00:03:41,082 --> 00:03:41,802</time>
<s>用来形容中国</s>
<time>95_00:03:42,162 --> 00:03:42,522</time>
<s>不是老被引用吗</s>
<time>96_00:03:42,882 --> 00:03:43,962</time>
<s>这话不是他的发明</s>
<time>97_00:03:44,322 --> 00:03:46,122</time>
<s>如果作为一个历史描述</s>
<time>98_00:03:46,482 --> 00:03:47,562</time>
<s>它有一定的正确性</s>
<time>99_00:03:48,642 --> 00:03:50,442</time>
<s>但是它被用滥掉了</s>
<time>100_00:03:50,802 --> 00:03:51,522</time>
<s>而且这一句话里面</s>
<time>101_00:03:51,882 --> 00:03:52,602</time>
<s>有很多问题</s>
<time>102_00:03:52,962 --> 00:03:54,402</time>
<s>我们首先提出是</s>
<time>103_00:03:54,762 --> 00:03:55,482</time>
<s>什么叫“中国”</s>
<time>104_00:03:55,842 --> 00:03:57,642</time>
<s>如果说现代国家是有</s>
<time>105_00:03:58,002 --> 00:03:58,362</time>
<s>主权</s>
<time>106_00:03:58,722 --> 00:03:59,442</time>
<s>领土</s>
<time>107_00:03:59,802 --> 00:04:00,162</time>
<s>人民</s>
<time>108_00:04:00,522 --> 00:04:00,882</time>
<s>政府</s>
<time>109_00:04:01,242 --> 00:04:02,322</time>
<s>那中国早就有了</s>
<time>110_00:04:02,682 --> 00:04:03,402</time>
<s>唐代的时候</s>
<time>111_00:04:03,762 --> 00:04:04,482</time>
<s>已经划了界了</s>
<time>112_00:04:05,202 --> 00:04:05,922</time>
<s>明朝</s>
<time>113_00:04:06,282 --> 00:04:07,722</time>
<s>为什么要修九边</s>
<time>114_00:04:08,082 --> 00:04:09,522</time>
<s>可是古代中国</s>
<time>115_00:04:09,882 --> 00:04:10,602</time>
<s>疆域动来动去</s>
<time>116_00:04:10,962 --> 00:04:11,322</time>
<s>移来移去</s>
<time>117_00:04:11,682 --> 00:04:12,402</time>
<s>你倒推</s>
<time>118_00:04:12,762 --> 00:04:14,202</time>
<s>那当然只好是文明体</s>
<time>119_00:04:15,642 --> 00:04:16,722</time>
<s>几乎就变成个狡辩嘛</s>
<time>120_00:04:18,162 --> 00:04:18,882</time>
<s>那怎么看待</s>
<time>121_00:04:19,242 --> 00:04:20,682</time>
<s>我们自己的史学传统是什么呢</s>
<time>122_00:04:22,122 --> 00:04:23,922</time>
<s>包括中国历史书写的传统</s>
<time>123_00:04:25,002 --> 00:04:25,722</time>
<s>真实的历史变化</s>
<time>124_00:04:26,082 --> 00:04:27,162</time>
<s>之间的关系是什么</s>
<time>125_00:04:54,162 --> 00:04:55,601</time>
<s>倦怠总会袭来</s>
<time>126_00:04:57,042 --> 00:04:58,122</time>
<s>你渴望新的感受</s>
<time>127_00:04:59,202 --> 00:05:00,642</time>
<s>一条从未踏足的小径</s>
<time>128_00:05:01,722 --> 00:05:02,802</time>
<s>一个突然到来的朋友</s>
<time>129_00:05:03,882 --> 00:05:04,961</time>
<s>或是一个意外的包子</s>
<time>130_00:05:08,562 --> 00:05:08,922</time>
<s>但旧与新</s>
<time>131_00:05:10,002 --> 00:05:10,722</time>
<s>从来是紧密的链条</s>
<time>132_00:05:12,522 --> 00:05:13,602</time>
<s>唯内在笃定</s>
<time>133_00:05:14,682 --> 00:05:15,762</time>
<s>才不断激发外在探索</s>
<time>134_00:05:18,642 --> 00:05:19,002</time>
<s>因为你始终知道</s>
<time>135_00:05:20,082 --> 00:05:21,162</time>
<s>爱是一切的源头</s>
<time>136_00:05:22,962 --> 00:05:23,682</time>
<s>新道路</s>
<time>137_00:05:24,402 --> 00:05:25,122</time>
<s>总因它意外浮现</s>
<time>138_00:05:27,642 --> 00:05:29,442</time>
<s>唯爱与生命不可辜负</s>
<time>139_00:05:48,882 --> 00:05:49,602</time>
<s>在东京人学做坊有一影</s>
<time>140_00:05:51,042 --> 00:05:51,401</time>
<s>我激</s>
<time>141_00:05:52,842 --> 00:05:54,282</time>
<s>我激</s>
<time>142_00:06:01,122 --> 00:06:01,842</time>
<s>不好意思葛老师</s>
<time>143_00:06:02,562 --> 00:06:02,922</time>
<s>兜了一大圈</s>
<time>144_00:06:05,082 --> 00:06:05,802</time>
<s>不过雨天还挺好的</s>
<time>145_00:06:06,162 --> 00:06:06,881</time>
<s>挺舒服的</s>
<time>146_00:06:08,322 --> 00:06:09,042</time>
<s>对文学家来说</s>
<time>147_00:06:09,402 --> 00:06:10,122</time>
<s>好像下雨</s>
<time>148_00:06:10,482 --> 00:06:11,922</time>
<s>还平添了一点情趣</s>
<time>149_00:06:12,642 --> 00:06:13,722</time>
<s>而且在不忍池畔</s>
<time>150_00:06:14,082 --> 00:06:14,802</time>
<s>名字又特别搭</s>
<time>151_00:06:16,602 --> 00:06:18,042</time>
<s>您平时每天怎么走</s>
<time>152_00:06:18,762 --> 00:06:19,842</time>
<s>从这里有一个台阶</s>
<time>153_00:06:20,202 --> 00:06:22,002</time>
<s>上到上野公园</s>
<time>154_00:06:22,362 --> 00:06:23,442</time>
<s>大概是</s>
<time>155_00:06:23,802 --> 00:06:25,242</time>
<s>6500步</s>
<time>156_00:06:26,322 --> 00:06:27,042</time>
<s>这么精确算的</s>
<time>157_00:06:30,282 --> 00:06:32,082</time>
<s>我们在这先是看了枯叶</s>
<time>158_00:06:32,442 --> 00:06:33,522</time>
<s>然后看樱花</s>
<time>159_00:06:34,602 --> 00:06:36,042</time>
<s>樱花谢了以后是杜鹃花</s>
<time>160_00:06:36,402 --> 00:06:38,202</time>
<s>再过一段时间就看荷花</s>
<time>161_00:06:38,562 --> 00:06:39,282</time>
<s>半年的时间</s>
<time>162_00:06:39,642 --> 00:06:40,362</time>
<s>困在这个</s>
<time>163_00:06:41,082 --> 00:06:42,162</time>
<s>城里面</s>
<time>164_00:06:42,522 --> 00:06:43,962</time>
<s>您有没有</s>
<time>165_00:06:44,322 --> 00:06:46,842</time>
<s>内心恐惧的那个时候</s>
<time>166_00:06:47,562 --> 00:06:49,002</time>
<s>我好像不太恐惧这个</s>
<time>167_00:06:49,362 --> 00:06:51,522</time>
<s>没有这种感觉</s>
<time>168_00:06:51,882 --> 00:06:52,602</time>
<s>我们觉得</s>
<time>169_00:06:52,962 --> 00:06:55,122</time>
<s>自然灾害要比人祸</s>
<time>170_00:06:56,562 --> 00:06:57,282</time>
<s>要好对付得多</s>
<time>171_00:06:58,722 --> 00:07:00,522</time>
<s>再说我已经活到七十岁了</s>
<time>172_00:07:02,682 --> 00:07:04,842</time>
<s>人生七十古来稀</s>
<time>173_00:07:07,002 --> 00:07:08,082</time>
<s>只是觉得</s>
<time>174_00:07:09,522 --> 00:07:10,602</time>
<s>被封锁在城里面</s>
<time>175_00:07:10,962 --> 00:07:11,682</time>
<s>好像觉得很闷</s>
<time>176_00:07:12,762 --> 00:07:14,202</time>
<s>我有一次在那拍了</s>
<time>177_00:07:14,562 --> 00:07:16,002</time>
<s>很多鲤鱼张开嘴巴那个</s>
<time>178_00:07:16,722 --> 00:07:18,162</time>
<s>国内人说这是灾异</s>
<time>179_00:07:19,602 --> 00:07:20,322</time>
<s>就是这个地方</s>
<time>180_00:07:21,042 --> 00:07:22,842</time>
<s>这个地方这个鱼</s>
<time>181_00:07:23,922 --> 00:07:25,002</time>
<s>确实太可怕了</s>
<time>182_00:07:26,802 --> 00:07:27,162</time>
<s>这这这</s>
<time>183_00:07:27,522 --> 00:07:28,602</time>
<s>哇真是啊</s>
<time>184_00:07:28,962 --> 00:07:29,682</time>
<s>这是灾异的感觉</s>
<time>185_00:07:30,042 --> 00:07:32,922</time>
<s>像日本的志怪小说里</s>
<time>186_00:07:33,282 --> 00:07:34,362</time>
<s>描述的感觉</s>
<time>187_00:07:34,722 --> 00:07:35,082</time>
<s>因为从来没见过</s>
<time>188_00:07:35,442 --> 00:07:36,522</time>
<s>说这个春天</s>
<time>189_00:07:36,882 --> 00:07:38,682</time>
<s>不应该是鱼张开嘴</s>
<time>190_00:07:39,042 --> 00:07:40,842</time>
<s>好像水下无氧气</s>
<time>191_00:07:41,562 --> 00:07:42,642</time>
<s>那种感觉</s>
<time>192_00:07:43,002 --> 00:07:43,722</time>
<s>非常怪异</s>
<time>193_00:07:44,442 --> 00:07:45,522</time>
<s>真是怪异</s>
<time>194_00:07:45,882 --> 00:07:47,322</time>
<s>它是个很让人不安的</s>
<time>195_00:07:47,682 --> 00:07:48,762</time>
<s>一个景象我也觉得是</s>
<time>196_00:07:49,122 --> 00:07:49,482</time>
<s>对很让人不安</s>
<time>197_00:07:50,562 --> 00:07:52,362</time>
<s>但你忍不住去窥探它</s>
<time>198_00:07:55,962 --> 00:07:57,042</time>
<s>哎呦很</s>
<time>199_00:07:58,842 --> 00:07:59,562</time>
<s>这个鱼为今天的感觉</s>
<time>200_00:07:59,922 --> 00:08:00,282</time>
<s>定了调子</s>
<time>201_00:08:02,802 --> 00:08:04,602</time>
<s>历史之口张开了</s>
<time>202_00:08:05,682 --> 00:08:07,482</time>
<s>我以前老是说形势比人强</s>
<time>203_00:08:08,562 --> 00:08:10,722</time>
<s>我是从七岁上小学的时候</s>
<time>204_00:08:11,082 --> 00:08:11,802</time>
<s>就反右了</s>
<time>205_00:08:12,162 --> 00:08:13,962</time>
<s>后来四清文革</s>
<time>206_00:08:15,042 --> 00:08:16,842</time>
<s>个人好像是不太</s>
<time>207_00:08:17,922 --> 00:08:18,282</time>
<s>你很仿禮</s>
<time>208_00:08:19,002 --> 00:08:19,722</time>
<s>可控性很少</s>
<time>209_00:08:20,082 --> 00:08:20,442</time>
<s>对</s>
<time>210_00:08:21,522 --> 00:08:22,242</time>
<s>有时候你也觉得</s>
<time>211_00:08:22,602 --> 00:08:23,322</time>
<s>这个思想能力</s>
<time>212_00:08:24,402 --> 00:08:24,762</time>
<s>蛮脆弱</s>
<time>213_00:08:25,482 --> 00:08:26,202</time>
<s>蛮无力感</s>
<time>214_00:08:26,562 --> 00:08:27,282</time>
<s>无力感很强</s>
<time>215_00:08:27,642 --> 00:08:28,002</time>
<s>是啊</s>
<time>216_00:08:28,722 --> 00:08:30,162</time>
<s>对于一个做思想史的人来讲</s>
<time>217_00:08:30,522 --> 00:08:31,242</time>
<s>意识到这种</s>
<time>218_00:08:31,602 --> 00:08:32,682</time>
<s>思想经常是这样无力的</s>
<time>219_00:08:33,762 --> 00:08:34,841</time>
<s>这是什么样一种特别的感觉</s>
<time>220_00:08:35,202 --> 00:08:36,642</time>
<s>我总是想把它往</s>
<time>221_00:08:37,002 --> 00:08:38,082</time>
<s>远处推一下</s>
<time>222_00:08:38,442 --> 00:08:38,801</time>
<s>把它放在一个</s>
<time>223_00:08:39,162 --> 00:08:40,242</time>
<s>更大的坐标里面去看</s>
<time>224_00:08:41,682 --> 00:08:42,762</time>
<s>我想这次疫情</s>
<time>225_00:08:43,122 --> 00:08:43,482</time>
<s>大概对</s>
<time>226_00:08:44,202 --> 00:08:44,562</time>
<s>中国</s>
<time>227_00:08:44,922 --> 00:08:46,362</time>
<s>至少对中国</s>
<time>228_00:08:46,721 --> 00:08:47,442</time>
<s>可能是一个节点</s>
<time>229_00:08:48,522 --> 00:08:48,882</time>
<s>它怎么变</s>
<time>230_00:08:49,601 --> 00:08:50,682</time>
<s>但是看不到的是说</s>
<time>231_00:08:51,402 --> 00:08:52,842</time>
<s>这种情况会刺激</s>
<time>232_00:08:53,202 --> 00:08:54,642</time>
<s>往哪个方向转</s>
<time>233_00:08:55,721 --> 00:08:57,162</time>
<s>还不是看得很清楚</s>
<time>234_00:08:57,522 --> 00:08:58,601</time>
<s>好像整个世界都</s>
<time>235_00:08:59,682 --> 00:09:01,482</time>
<s>到底将来往哪个方向走</s>
<time>236_00:09:02,202 --> 00:09:03,282</time>
<s>你不大看得清楚</s>
<time>237_00:09:04,002 --> 00:09:05,082</time>
<s>任何预言对于我们这些</s>
<time>238_00:09:05,442 --> 00:09:06,522</time>
<s>搞历史的人来说</s>
<time>239_00:09:07,962 --> 00:09:09,402</time>
<s>都不大</s>
<time>240_00:09:10,482 --> 00:09:11,562</time>
<s>不大靠得住</s>
<time>241_00:09:14,442 --> 00:09:16,601</time>
<s>但是这个疫情确实让你</s>
<time>242_00:09:16,962 --> 00:09:18,402</time>
<s>想得非常非常多</s>
<time>243_00:09:21,642 --> 00:09:22,721</time>
<s>作为一个历史学家</s>
<time>244_00:09:23,082 --> 00:09:24,522</time>
<s>当真的身经历史的时候</s>
<time>245_00:09:24,882 --> 00:09:27,042</time>
<s>感受力怎么调动起来呢</s>
<time>246_00:09:27,402 --> 00:09:28,842</time>
<s>其实亲历历史的人</s>
<time>247_00:09:29,202 --> 00:09:29,562</time>
<s>不一定比</s>
<time>248_00:09:29,922 --> 00:09:31,362</time>
<s>在远处看历史的人</s>
<time>249_00:09:31,722 --> 00:09:33,162</time>
<s>感受更强</s>
<time>250_00:09:33,522 --> 00:09:35,322</time>
<s>以前李鸿章讲</s>
<time>251_00:09:36,042 --> 00:09:37,482</time>
<s>数千年未有之大变局</s>
<time>252_00:09:37,841 --> 00:09:39,641</time>
<s>可是身处那个时代的人</s>
<time>253_00:09:40,002 --> 00:09:40,722</time>
<s>他可不一定</s>
<time>254_00:09:41,082 --> 00:09:41,442</time>
<s>体会那么深</s>
<time>255_00:09:42,522 --> 00:09:43,242</time>
<s>所以我们</s>
<time>256_00:09:43,601 --> 00:09:45,042</time>
<s>倒是有一个好处就是</s>
<time>257_00:09:45,402 --> 00:09:46,842</time>
<s>推开了一段距离</s>
<time>258_00:09:47,202 --> 00:09:49,362</time>
<s>再来反过来看这个疫情</s>
<time>259_00:09:50,082 --> 00:09:51,522</time>
<s>而发生历史的那个地方</s>
<time>260_00:09:51,882 --> 00:09:52,962</time>
<s>是我们特别熟悉的</s>
<time>261_00:09:53,322 --> 00:09:54,042</time>
<s>真实感受</s>
<time>262_00:09:54,402 --> 00:09:55,842</time>
<s>可能跟在国内不一样</s>
<time>263_00:09:56,202 --> 00:09:56,922</time>
<s>这给我们带来一个</s>
<time>264_00:09:57,282 --> 00:09:57,642</time>
<s>很好的机会</s>
<time>265_00:09:58,362 --> 00:09:59,442</time>
<s>所以我一直在</s>
<time>266_00:10:00,522 --> 00:10:00,882</time>
<s>在做一个</s>
<time>267_00:10:01,242 --> 00:10:02,322</time>
<s>每天做笔记</s>
<time>268_00:10:03,042 --> 00:10:04,482</time>
<s>来不断地跟我国对比</s>
<time>269_00:10:04,842 --> 00:10:05,561</time>
<s>我们就感到真的是</s>
<time>270_00:10:05,921 --> 00:10:07,721</time>
<s>中国和日本差别太大了</s>
<time>271_00:10:08,442 --> 00:10:09,882</time>
<s>我们有时候也会不理解</s>
<time>272_00:10:10,242 --> 00:10:12,042</time>
<s>说日本为什么会是这样</s>
<time>273_00:10:12,761 --> 00:10:13,122</time>
<s>你发现没有</s>
<time>274_00:10:13,482 --> 00:10:14,202</time>
<s>中国这些年</s>
<time>275_00:10:14,562 --> 00:10:16,362</time>
<s>日本史的书翻译得很多</s>
<time>276_00:10:17,442 --> 00:10:17,801</time>
<s>对</s>
<time>277_00:10:18,162 --> 00:10:18,522</time>
<s>为什么讨论</s>
<time>278_00:10:18,882 --> 00:10:19,602</time>
<s>大正民主</s>
<time>279_00:10:20,322 --> 00:10:21,402</time>
<s>为什么会走向战争</s>
<time>280_00:10:21,762 --> 00:10:22,842</time>
<s>你想它是在讨论日本吗</s>
<time>281_00:10:23,922 --> 00:10:25,002</time>
<s>其实它是中国问题意识</s>
<time>282_00:10:25,362 --> 00:10:26,082</time>
<s>在起作用</s>
<time>283_00:10:27,882 --> 00:10:28,962</time>
<s>但是我们过去</s>
<time>284_00:10:29,322 --> 00:10:30,402</time>
<s>太多地强调</s>
<time>285_00:10:30,762 --> 00:10:31,482</time>
<s>中国和日本</s>
<time>286_00:10:31,842 --> 00:10:32,202</time>
<s>同文同种</s>
<time>287_00:10:32,562 --> 00:10:33,282</time>
<s>一衣带水</s>
<time>288_00:10:34,002 --> 00:10:35,082</time>
<s>其实我觉得</s>
<time>289_00:10:35,442 --> 00:10:37,242</time>
<s>现在更应该强调的是</s>
<time>290_00:10:37,601 --> 00:10:38,681</time>
<s>中国和日本</s>
<time>291_00:10:39,402 --> 00:10:41,562</time>
<s>它有什么样的结构性差异</s>
<time>292_00:10:42,282 --> 00:10:45,162</time>
<s>而且导致了后来的路径不同</s>
<time>293_00:10:46,242 --> 00:10:46,601</time>
<s>对您来说这种</s>
<time>294_00:10:46,962 --> 00:10:49,122</time>
<s>最结构性的差异是什么呢</s>
<time>295_00:10:49,482 --> 00:10:51,282</time>
<s>我们从政治文化角度讲</s>
<time>296_00:10:52,002 --> 00:10:53,082</time>
<s>我们一直在讨论说</s>
<time>297_00:10:53,802 --> 00:10:54,522</time>
<s>中国古代</s>
<time>298_00:10:54,882 --> 00:10:55,962</time>
<s>政权的合法性</s>
<time>299_00:10:56,322 --> 00:10:56,682</time>
<s>是所谓</s>
<time>300_00:10:57,042 --> 00:10:58,482</time>
<s>神授王权</s>
<time>301_00:10:58,842 --> 00:10:59,562</time>
<s>这一方面呢</s>
<time>302_00:10:59,922 --> 00:11:00,641</time>
<s>日本有的</s>
<time>303_00:11:01,002 --> 00:11:03,522</time>
<s>除了极少极少的</s>
<time>304_00:11:03,882 --> 00:11:05,322</time>
<s>比如说足利义满</s>
<time>305_00:11:05,682 --> 00:11:06,042</time>
<s>这个时代以外</s>
<time>306_00:11:06,762 --> 00:11:08,922</time>
<s>日本从来不是中国的朝贡圈</s>
<time>307_00:11:09,282 --> 00:11:11,082</time>
<s>没有这个贡奉关系</s>
<time>308_00:11:11,442 --> 00:11:13,242</time>
<s>它文化上虽然接受也很多</s>
<time>309_00:11:13,602 --> 00:11:14,682</time>
<s>但是它一直有一种</s>
<time>310_00:11:15,762 --> 00:11:16,841</time>
<s>疏离的意识</s>
<time>311_00:11:17,562 --> 00:11:19,721</time>
<s>尤其是在十三世纪</s>
<time>312_00:11:20,082 --> 00:11:21,522</time>
<s>蒙古袭来刺激了它</s>
<time>313_00:11:22,602 --> 00:11:23,322</time>
<s>所谓神国的观念</s>
<time>314_00:11:24,042 --> 00:11:26,202</time>
<s>蒙古连汉族中国都灭掉了</s>
<time>315_00:11:26,561 --> 00:11:27,282</time>
<s>还灭不掉我</s>
<time>316_00:11:28,002 --> 00:11:29,442</time>
<s>但是有一个东西日本没有</s>
<time>317_00:11:29,802 --> 00:11:30,882</time>
<s>中国人认为呢</s>
<time>318_00:11:31,242 --> 00:11:31,602</time>
<s>合法性要</s>
<time>319_00:11:31,962 --> 00:11:33,402</time>
<s>以德配之</s>
<time>320_00:11:33,762 --> 00:11:34,122</time>
<s>要有德</s>
<time>321_00:11:35,202 --> 00:11:35,562</time>
<s>没有德</s>
<time>322_00:11:36,642 --> 00:11:37,002</time>
<s>我推翻你</s>
<time>323_00:11:38,442 --> 00:11:40,962</time>
<s>所以中国是承认汤武革命的</s>
<time>324_00:11:42,402 --> 00:11:44,202</time>
<s>所以中国就不断地朝代变更</s>
<time>325_00:11:44,562 --> 00:11:46,362</time>
<s>而且凡是朝代变更</s>
<time>326_00:11:46,722 --> 00:11:47,442</time>
<s>就包装自己说</s>
<time>327_00:11:47,802 --> 00:11:48,882</time>
<s>我是有德</s>
<time>328_00:11:49,242 --> 00:11:50,322</time>
<s>我才得到你这个位置</s>
<time>329_00:11:51,042 --> 00:11:51,762</time>
<s>日本没有的</s>
<time>330_00:11:52,842 --> 00:11:53,561</time>
<s>天皇永远是天皇</s>
<time>331_00:11:53,922 --> 00:11:55,002</time>
<s>只要有点血统就行</s>
<time>332_00:11:55,362 --> 00:11:55,721</time>
<s>万世一系</s>
<time>333_00:11:56,802 --> 00:11:57,162</time>
<s>好</s>
<time>334_00:11:57,522 --> 00:11:58,962</time>
<s>这里面又带来第二个问题</s>
<time>335_00:11:59,322 --> 00:12:01,122</time>
<s>日本天皇没有绝对的权力</s>
<time>336_00:12:01,482 --> 00:12:02,922</time>
<s>对于国家的控制</s>
<time>337_00:12:03,282 --> 00:12:05,082</time>
<s>不是严丝合缝</s>
<time>338_00:12:05,442 --> 00:12:06,162</time>
<s>滴水不漏的</s>
<time>339_00:12:06,522 --> 00:12:07,962</time>
<s>日本不可能推行</s>
<time>340_00:12:08,322 --> 00:12:09,762</time>
<s>像中国那样的郡县制</s>
<time>341_00:12:10,842 --> 00:12:11,922</time>
<s>反而日本是封建制</s>
<time>342_00:12:12,282 --> 00:12:12,642</time>
<s>中国呢</s>
<time>343_00:12:13,001 --> 00:12:15,521</time>
<s>书同文行同伦车同轨</s>
<time>344_00:12:16,242 --> 00:12:17,322</time>
<s>都得一模一样</s>
<time>345_00:12:18,042 --> 00:12:18,402</time>
<s>好</s>
<time>346_00:12:18,762 --> 00:12:20,202</time>
<s>那这个带来一个什么问题呢</s>
<time>347_00:12:20,561 --> 00:12:21,282</time>
<s>要颠覆</s>
<time>348_00:12:21,642 --> 00:12:22,722</time>
<s>整体的颠覆</s>
<time>349_00:12:23,082 --> 00:12:23,442</time>
<s>所以总是革命</s>
<time>350_00:12:24,162 --> 00:12:24,882</time>
<s>不断革命</s>
<time>351_00:12:25,242 --> 00:12:26,322</time>
<s>再往下想</s>
<time>352_00:12:26,682 --> 00:12:27,762</time>
<s>第三个差别就来了</s>
<time>353_00:12:28,122 --> 00:12:28,842</time>
<s>咱们中国是</s>
<time>354_00:12:29,202 --> 00:12:30,282</time>
<s>文化从上到下</s>
<time>355_00:12:30,642 --> 00:12:33,162</time>
<s>政治管理组织从上到下</s>
<time>356_00:12:33,522 --> 00:12:35,322</time>
<s>长沙走马楼出土“吴简”</s>
<time>357_00:12:35,682 --> 00:12:36,042</time>
<s>你就看到</s>
<time>358_00:12:36,402 --> 00:12:38,922</time>
<s>最底下最底下的户</s>
<time>359_00:12:39,282 --> 00:12:40,722</time>
<s>劳动力人口</s>
<time>360_00:12:41,082 --> 00:12:41,442</time>
<s>它都登记着</s>
<time>361_00:12:41,802 --> 00:12:42,522</time>
<s>收你的税</s>
<time>362_00:12:43,242 --> 00:12:45,762</time>
<s>像我过去在贵州的苗族地区</s>
<time>363_00:12:46,122 --> 00:12:46,842</time>
<s>过去是土司管着</s>
<time>364_00:12:47,202 --> 00:12:49,002</time>
<s>就跟那个封建大名管着一样</s>
<time>365_00:12:50,442 --> 00:12:50,802</time>
<s>改土归流</s>
<time>366_00:12:51,162 --> 00:12:52,602</time>
<s>成为编户齐民</s>
<time>367_00:12:52,962 --> 00:12:55,122</time>
<s>再加上中国儒家教育</s>
<time>368_00:12:55,482 --> 00:12:55,842</time>
<s>非常发达</s>
<time>369_00:12:56,562 --> 00:12:57,642</time>
<s>所以一直渗透到底下</s>
<time>370_00:12:58,002 --> 00:12:58,722</time>
<s>可是日本呢</s>
<time>371_00:12:59,082 --> 00:13:00,882</time>
<s>底下都是大名管着呢</s>
<time>372_00:13:01,242 --> 00:13:02,682</time>
<s>老百姓根本就不听你的</s>
<time>373_00:13:03,042 --> 00:13:04,122</time>
<s>所以日本能保留文化</s>
<time>374_00:13:04,482 --> 00:13:05,922</time>
<s>它的很多文化的象征物</s>
<time>375_00:13:07,362 --> 00:13:08,802</time>
<s>都是从很早很早保留下来的</s>
<time>376_00:13:09,162 --> 00:13:10,602</time>
<s>不像我们破四旧破掉了</s>
<time>377_00:13:11,682 --> 00:13:13,482</time>
<s>这就变成了一个中国的传统</s>
<time>378_00:13:13,842 --> 00:13:14,922</time>
<s>和日本的传统的不一样</s>
<time>379_00:13:16,002 --> 00:13:17,082</time>
<s>接下来还有一个问题</s>
<time>380_00:13:18,522 --> 00:13:18,882</time>
<s>宗教</s>
<time>381_00:13:20,322 --> 00:13:22,122</time>
<s>日本思想史的主轴</s>
<time>382_00:13:22,482 --> 00:13:24,282</time>
<s>是王权</s>
<time>383_00:13:24,642 --> 00:13:25,722</time>
<s>对神佛</s>
<time>384_00:13:26,082 --> 00:13:26,802</time>
<s>是两极</s>
<time>385_00:13:27,882 --> 00:13:28,242</time>
<s>中国不是的</s>
<time>386_00:13:28,602 --> 00:13:29,682</time>
<s>中国王权和神佛是</s>
<time>387_00:13:30,042 --> 00:13:30,762</time>
<s>垂直关系</s>
<time>388_00:13:32,202 --> 00:13:33,282</time>
<s>中国历史上有</s>
<time>389_00:13:33,642 --> 00:13:35,082</time>
<s>僧总统道总统</s>
<time>390_00:13:35,442 --> 00:13:36,882</time>
<s>或者说叫僧统道统</s>
<time>391_00:13:37,242 --> 00:13:39,042</time>
<s>政府任命的和尚道士</s>
<time>392_00:13:39,402 --> 00:13:40,122</time>
<s>来管这些人</s>
<time>393_00:13:40,482 --> 00:13:41,562</time>
<s>这个是咱们中国的传统</s>
<time>394_00:13:42,282 --> 00:13:42,642</time>
<s>一直到现在</s>
<time>395_00:13:43,002 --> 00:13:44,442</time>
<s>你看我认识一些和尚</s>
<time>396_00:13:44,802 --> 00:13:45,882</time>
<s>拿着名片出来</s>
<time>397_00:13:46,242 --> 00:13:48,042</time>
<s>处级正处级和尚</s>
<time>398_00:13:50,562 --> 00:13:51,282</time>
<s>日本的僧人</s>
<time>399_00:13:51,642 --> 00:13:52,002</time>
<s>神职人员</s>
<time>400_00:13:52,722 --> 00:13:53,082</time>
<s>你去看</s>
<time>401_00:13:53,442 --> 00:13:54,162</time>
<s>他不归政府管</s>
<time>402_00:13:54,522 --> 00:13:56,682</time>
<s>过去比睿山的延历寺</s>
<time>403_00:13:57,042 --> 00:13:59,562</time>
<s>是有兵的有军队的</s>
<time>404_00:13:59,922 --> 00:14:02,442</time>
<s>我们除了历史上传说的</s>
<time>405_00:14:02,802 --> 00:14:04,962</time>
<s>少林十八棍僧之外</s>
<time>406_00:14:05,322 --> 00:14:07,122</time>
<s>哪里看到和尚庙里面</s>
<time>407_00:14:07,482 --> 00:14:08,922</time>
<s>有军队啊</s>
<time>408_00:14:09,282 --> 00:14:10,722</time>
<s>连刀枪都不敢藏一个</s>
<time>409_00:14:11,082 --> 00:14:11,442</time>
<s>而且呢</s>
<time>410_00:14:11,802 --> 00:14:13,962</time>
<s>日本人对宗教信仰的虔诚</s>
<time>411_00:14:14,322 --> 00:14:14,682</time>
<s>跟中国是不一样</s>
<time>412_00:14:15,042 --> 00:14:15,762</time>
<s>中国宗教</s>
<time>413_00:14:16,122 --> 00:14:17,562</time>
<s>因为没有神圣权力</s>
<time>414_00:14:17,922 --> 00:14:19,002</time>
<s>没有绝对性</s>
<time>415_00:14:19,362 --> 00:14:21,522</time>
<s>所以信仰者也不那么虔诚</s>
<time>416_00:14:21,882 --> 00:14:22,602</time>
<s>鲁迅讲得最好了</s>
<time>417_00:14:23,682 --> 00:14:26,202</time>
<s>中国的佛教信仰道教信仰</s>
<time>418_00:14:26,562 --> 00:14:28,002</time>
<s>就等于是买股票</s>
<time>419_00:14:28,362 --> 00:14:30,522</time>
<s>是希望将来的股票升值</s>
<time>420_00:14:30,882 --> 00:14:31,602</time>
<s>赚大钱的</s>
<time>421_00:14:32,322 --> 00:14:33,402</time>
<s>所以宗教不一样</s>
<time>422_00:14:34,122 --> 00:14:35,202</time>
<s>所以日本过去有一个</s>
<time>423_00:14:35,562 --> 00:14:37,362</time>
<s>非常非常有名的学者</s>
<time>424_00:14:37,722 --> 00:14:38,802</time>
<s>叫做黑田俊雄</s>
<time>425_00:14:39,162 --> 00:14:40,602</time>
<s>他其实也是讲的</s>
<time>426_00:14:40,962 --> 00:14:41,682</time>
<s>王权</s>
<time>427_00:14:42,042 --> 00:14:42,402</time>
<s>神佛</s>
<time>428_00:14:42,762 --> 00:14:44,202</time>
<s>他认为日本思想史</s>
<time>429_00:14:44,562 --> 00:14:47,082</time>
<s>就围绕着这两极</s>
<time>430_00:14:47,442 --> 00:14:47,802</time>
<s>摆动</s>
<time>431_00:14:48,162 --> 00:14:49,962</time>
<s>影响到各种文化</s>
<time>432_00:14:50,322 --> 00:14:51,402</time>
<s>我觉得这个总结</s>
<time>433_00:14:51,762 --> 00:14:52,482</time>
<s>应该是比较可靠的</s>
<time>434_00:14:54,282 --> 00:14:55,722</time>
<s>你搞哲学的搞文学的</s>
<time>435_00:14:56,442 --> 00:14:58,242</time>
<s>为了提倡人类之爱啊</s>
<time>436_00:14:58,602 --> 00:14:59,682</time>
<s>你应该讲</s>
<time>437_00:15:00,042 --> 00:15:01,842</time>
<s>这个文化和那个文化很像</s>
<time>438_00:15:02,202 --> 00:15:03,282</time>
<s>和大家都有共同性</s>
<time>439_00:15:04,362 --> 00:15:05,802</time>
<s>但是作为研究历史的人呢</s>
<time>440_00:15:06,162 --> 00:15:09,042</time>
<s>可能更多的是讲它不一样</s>
<time>441_00:15:09,402 --> 00:15:11,562</time>
<s>如果你太多地强调一样</s>
<time>442_00:15:11,922 --> 00:15:13,002</time>
<s>你没法解释</s>
