<time>876_00:34:13,842 --> 00:34:14,562</time>
<s>这个事做法</s>
<time>877_00:34:14,922 --> 00:34:15,642</time>
<s>一般的人不会这样做</s>
<time>878_00:34:16,002 --> 00:34:17,442</time>
<s>但我目的是要那本书</s>
<time>879_00:34:17,802 --> 00:34:18,522</time>
<s>我还是出钱买</s>
<time>880_00:34:18,882 --> 00:34:20,322</time>
<s>我认为我这样做也无可厚非</s>
<time>881_00:34:22,122 --> 00:34:22,842</time>
<s>而且后来(上世纪八十年代)</s>
<time>882_00:34:23,202 --> 00:34:24,282</time>
<s>我拿这本书还印了</s>
<time>883_00:34:24,642 --> 00:34:25,362</time>
<s>上面不批</s>
<time>884_00:34:25,722 --> 00:34:26,801</time>
<s>说你古籍出版社</s>
<time>885_00:34:27,522 --> 00:34:27,882</time>
<s>怎么印</s>
<time>886_00:34:28,242 --> 00:34:29,321</time>
<s>怎么印翻译小说</s>
<time>887_00:34:30,042 --> 00:34:31,482</time>
<s>朱正说帮我去印</s>
<time>888_00:34:31,842 --> 00:34:32,202</time>
<s>我给他印</s>
<time>889_00:34:33,282 --> 00:34:34,722</time>
<s>我的条件就是书你拿去印</s>
<time>890_00:34:35,082 --> 00:34:36,162</time>
<s>我要100本书</s>
<time>891_00:34:37,602 --> 00:34:38,322</time>
<s>因为很多人都要</s>
<time>892_00:34:38,682 --> 00:34:39,762</time>
<s>借我这本书去看</s>
<time>893_00:34:42,281 --> 00:34:43,362</time>
<s>但后来(这本书)出了问题</s>
<time>894_00:34:43,722 --> 00:34:44,802</time>
<s>这个地方有价格</s>
<time>895_00:34:45,162 --> 00:34:45,882</time>
<s>应该有个标价的</s>
<time>896_00:34:46,242 --> 00:34:46,962</time>
<s>应该在里面应该吧</s>
<time>897_00:34:48,042 --> 00:34:49,122</time>
<s>9块多钱一本</s>
<time>898_00:34:49,482 --> 00:34:51,282</time>
<s>我说我要卖90块钱一本</s>
<time>899_00:34:52,002 --> 00:34:52,722</time>
<s>90块</s>
<time>900_00:34:53,082 --> 00:34:53,802</time>
<s>你印3万本</s>
<time>901_00:34:54,522 --> 00:34:54,882</time>
<s>会要犯错误</s>
<time>902_00:34:55,242 --> 00:34:56,322</time>
<s>我只印3千本</s>
<time>903_00:34:56,682 --> 00:34:57,762</time>
<s>我先不卖书</s>
<time>904_00:34:58,842 --> 00:35:01,002</time>
<s>我说这个书我就发函</s>
<time>905_00:35:01,362 --> 00:35:02,082</time>
<s>发给各个单位</s>
<time>906_00:35:02,801 --> 00:35:03,162</time>
<s>我说我这个书</s>
<time>907_00:35:03,522 --> 00:35:04,241</time>
<s>是印给内部参考</s>
<time>908_00:35:04,602 --> 00:35:04,962</time>
<s>是吧</s>
<time>909_00:35:05,322 --> 00:35:07,842</time>
<s>党员要是哪一级的干部才能买</s>
<time>910_00:35:08,201 --> 00:35:10,002</time>
<s>但我不管你是不是这个东西</s>
<time>911_00:35:10,362 --> 00:35:12,162</time>
<s>我叫你单位开介绍信</s>
<time>912_00:35:12,881 --> 00:35:14,682</time>
<s>我要是个正高以上的职称</s>
<time>913_00:35:15,042 --> 00:35:16,482</time>
<s>作为内部书籍发行</s>
<time>914_00:35:17,202 --> 00:35:17,562</time>
<s>都会买</s>
<time>915_00:35:18,282 --> 00:35:19,002</time>
<s>而且印的时候</s>
<time>916_00:35:19,361 --> 00:35:20,442</time>
<s>我不在一个厂里印</s>
<time>917_00:35:20,802 --> 00:35:22,602</time>
<s>把封面在另一个工厂印</s>
<time>918_00:35:22,962 --> 00:35:24,042</time>
<s>把书在这个地方印</s>
<time>919_00:35:24,402 --> 00:35:25,122</time>
<s>最后我交给一个装订厂</s>
<time>920_00:35:25,482 --> 00:35:26,201</time>
<s>装订了我就发货</s>
<time>921_00:35:26,922 --> 00:35:28,362</time>
<s>不会标明哪个出版</s>
<time>922_00:35:29,082 --> 00:35:30,522</time>
<s>最后账不会算在你头上</s>
<time>923_00:35:31,242 --> 00:35:33,402</time>
<s>而且我一次就把钱赚足了</s>
<time>924_00:35:37,362 --> 00:35:38,442</time>
<s>这一类的（调）皮</s>
<time>925_00:35:38,802 --> 00:35:39,882</time>
<s>我经常搞</s>
<time>926_00:35:41,322 --> 00:35:43,482</time>
<s>我不是一个很听话的人</s>
<time>927_00:35:44,562 --> 00:35:44,922</time>
<s>而且</s>
<time>928_00:35:45,282 --> 00:35:46,722</time>
<s>你的话对不对呢</s>
<time>929_00:35:48,162 --> 00:35:49,602</time>
<s>比如说《查泰莱夫人的情人》不是</s>
<time>930_00:35:51,402 --> 00:35:52,482</time>
<s>不能够定位为淫书</s>
<time>931_00:35:52,842 --> 00:35:53,922</time>
<s>是世界名著</s>
<time>932_00:35:55,002 --> 00:35:56,802</time>
<s>我们经常有一种误差</s>
<time>933_00:35:57,522 --> 00:36:00,042</time>
<s>我们有很多误区</s>
<time>934_00:36:01,842 --> 00:36:04,002</time>
<s>当然真理有可能早过时代</s>
<time>935_00:36:04,721 --> 00:36:05,082</time>
<s>但是</s>
<time>936_00:36:05,442 --> 00:36:06,162</time>
<s>寻找真理</s>
<time>937_00:36:06,882 --> 00:36:07,602</time>
<s>与时代（限制）无关</s>
<time>938_00:36:10,122 --> 00:36:11,562</time>
<s>这是套《四部丛刊》</s>
<time>939_00:36:11,922 --> 00:36:12,281</time>
<s>中华书局</s>
<time>940_00:36:13,002 --> 00:36:14,082</time>
<s>解放后印的</s>
<time>941_00:36:15,522 --> 00:36:15,882</time>
<s>它的内容就是</s>
<time>942_00:36:16,242 --> 00:36:16,602</time>
<s>中国的</s>
<time>943_00:36:16,962 --> 00:36:18,402</time>
<s>古代的经史子集</s>
<time>944_00:36:19,122 --> 00:36:19,842</time>
<s>这是《清实录》</s>
<time>945_00:36:20,202 --> 00:36:20,922</time>
<s>《清实录》</s>
<time>946_00:36:21,281 --> 00:36:22,002</time>
<s>这个您翻看过吗</s>
<time>947_00:36:22,362 --> 00:36:22,722</time>
<s>我以前翻过</s>
<time>948_00:36:23,082 --> 00:36:23,442</time>
<s>我就读不进去</s>
<time>949_00:36:23,802 --> 00:36:24,882</time>
<s>通读没有读的</s>
<time>950_00:36:25,241 --> 00:36:25,602</time>
<s>读不下去的</s>
<time>951_00:36:27,042 --> 00:36:28,842</time>
<s>大量都是原始文件</s>
<time>952_00:36:29,922 --> 00:36:31,002</time>
<s>鲁迅和周作人的</s>
<time>953_00:36:31,362 --> 00:36:32,082</time>
<s>祖父的判刑</s>
<time>954_00:36:32,442 --> 00:36:33,882</time>
<s>材料档案都在里面</s>
<time>955_00:36:34,242 --> 00:36:34,602</time>
<s>这么细</s>
<time>956_00:36:34,962 --> 00:36:36,402</time>
<s>他祖父这么小的案子也有</s>
<time>957_00:36:37,122 --> 00:36:38,201</time>
<s>有科场案</s>
<time>958_00:36:40,002 --> 00:36:40,722</time>
<s>判得很重</s>
<time>959_00:36:41,082 --> 00:36:41,802</time>
<s>斩监候</s>
<time>960_00:36:42,882 --> 00:36:43,962</time>
<s>《春风沉醉的晚上》</s>
<time>961_00:36:44,322 --> 00:36:45,761</time>
<s>特别那个年代的感觉</s>
<time>962_00:36:48,642 --> 00:36:49,362</time>
<s>特别少年时代的感觉</s>
<time>963_00:36:49,722 --> 00:36:51,522</time>
<s>这些书就是后来乱放的</s>
<time>964_00:36:51,881 --> 00:36:52,962</time>
<s>我并不藏书</s>
<time>965_00:36:53,322 --> 00:36:54,761</time>
<s>我都是必须要用的书</s>
<time>966_00:36:55,122 --> 00:36:56,922</time>
<s>但是您也读很多西洋小说</s>
<time>967_00:36:57,281 --> 00:36:59,082</time>
<s>那些自己就没有保留</s>
<time>968_00:36:59,442 --> 00:36:59,802</time>
<s>没留下来</s>
<time>969_00:37:00,162 --> 00:37:01,241</time>
<s>主要读书的时候是</s>
<time>970_00:37:01,602 --> 00:37:02,322</time>
<s>解放以前</s>
<time>971_00:37:02,682 --> 00:37:04,122</time>
<s>在读高中的时候</s>
<time>972_00:37:04,482 --> 00:37:05,562</time>
<s>当学生的时候读的书</s>
<time>973_00:37:07,721 --> 00:37:08,082</time>
<s>这个是</s>
<time>974_00:37:08,442 --> 00:37:09,162</time>
<s>他这写的是什么</s>
<time>975_00:37:10,962 --> 00:37:12,402</time>
<s>这是钱锺书先生写给我的</s>
<time>976_00:37:13,482 --> 00:37:14,922</time>
<s>这是他在湖南作的诗</s>
<time>977_00:37:15,642 --> 00:37:16,361</time>
<s>他在蓝田</s>
<time>978_00:37:16,722 --> 00:37:17,802</time>
<s>国立师范学院</s>
<time>979_00:37:18,161 --> 00:37:19,602</time>
<s>也就是他写的三间大学</s>
<time>980_00:37:20,682 --> 00:37:22,122</time>
<s>那时候我在读初中</s>
<time>981_00:37:22,482 --> 00:37:23,922</time>
<s>我的英语老师就是他的学生</s>
<time>982_00:37:24,282 --> 00:37:25,002</time>
<s>是这样</s>
<time>983_00:37:26,442 --> 00:37:27,522</time>
<s>等于您是三间大学</s>
<time>984_00:37:27,882 --> 00:37:28,962</time>
<s>教授的学生的学生</s>
<time>985_00:37:30,042 --> 00:37:31,482</time>
<s>那时候我听到英语老师在家里</s>
<time>986_00:37:31,842 --> 00:37:32,922</time>
<s>谈他的故事</s>
<time>987_00:37:33,282 --> 00:37:34,002</time>
<s>但是那时候</s>
<time>988_00:37:34,361 --> 00:37:35,802</time>
<s>他也许讲了名字</s>
<time>989_00:37:36,161 --> 00:37:36,882</time>
<s>但是我们小孩子</s>
<time>990_00:37:37,242 --> 00:37:38,682</time>
<s>根本不记得什么钱锺书</s>
<time>991_00:37:39,042 --> 00:37:39,402</time>
<s>钱基博</s>
<time>992_00:37:40,482 --> 00:37:41,562</time>
<s>只知道他讲过</s>
<time>993_00:37:41,922 --> 00:37:44,442</time>
<s>老师的导师是一对父子</s>
<time>994_00:37:45,161 --> 00:37:47,322</time>
<s>父子在讲台上互相贬低</s>
<time>995_00:37:47,682 --> 00:37:48,042</time>
<s>互相贬低</s>
<time>996_00:37:48,402 --> 00:37:50,201</time>
<s>他的儿子就说老先生的东西</s>
<time>997_00:37:50,562 --> 00:37:51,282</time>
<s>学问是有</s>
<time>998_00:37:51,642 --> 00:37:52,721</time>
<s>观点很陈旧</s>
<time>999_00:37:54,162 --> 00:37:55,602</time>
<s>老先生就说钱锺书是</s>
<time>1000_00:37:55,962 --> 00:37:57,762</time>
<s>“野狐禅”</s>
<time>1001_00:37:59,202 --> 00:38:00,282</time>
<s>当然那是开玩笑</s>
<time>1002_00:38:00,642 --> 00:38:01,722</time>
<s>但是就说明个问题</s>
<time>1003_00:38:02,082 --> 00:38:03,162</time>
<s>要有自己的观点嘛</s>
<time>1004_00:38:04,241 --> 00:38:05,682</time>
<s>我虽然对钱先生非常尊敬</s>
<time>1005_00:38:06,402 --> 00:38:07,482</time>
<s>但是我并不认为</s>
<time>1006_00:38:07,842 --> 00:38:09,282</time>
<s>《围城》有很高的水平</s>
<time>1007_00:38:10,721 --> 00:38:11,442</time>
<s>讲自己的话</s>
<time>1008_00:38:12,162 --> 00:38:13,242</time>
<s>才能够自由地想</s>
<time>1009_00:38:13,962 --> 00:38:15,042</time>
<s>才能够接近事实</s>
<time>1010_00:38:18,642 --> 00:38:21,162</time>
<s>他考取了留日留英的</s>
<time>1011_00:38:21,521 --> 00:38:22,602</time>
<s>留学生都考取了</s>
<time>1012_00:38:23,322 --> 00:38:24,761</time>
<s>但是我觉得他对真实</s>
<time>1013_00:38:25,122 --> 00:38:26,201</time>
<s>很不敏感</s>
<time>1014_00:38:26,562 --> 00:38:27,642</time>
<s>家里有一个故事</s>
<time>1015_00:38:28,002 --> 00:38:30,162</time>
<s>日本人侵略是从北方来的</s>
<time>1016_00:38:31,602 --> 00:38:33,042</time>
<s>他却要把我往北边送（逃难）</s>
<time>1017_00:38:33,402 --> 00:38:34,482</time>
<s>报纸上登了标题这么大</s>
<time>1018_00:38:34,842 --> 00:38:35,922</time>
<s>我军湘北</s>
<time>1019_00:38:36,281 --> 00:38:38,082</time>
<s>就是湖南北部大捷</s>
<time>1020_00:38:38,442 --> 00:38:40,241</time>
<s>但是国民党的报纸能信吗</s>
<time>1021_00:38:41,322 --> 00:38:42,042</time>
<s>我都知道不可信</s>
<time>1022_00:38:42,402 --> 00:38:42,762</time>
<s>小孩子</s>
<time>1023_00:38:43,122 --> 00:38:44,201</time>
<s>所以他是一个书呆子</s>
<time>1024_00:38:46,722 --> 00:38:47,442</time>
<s>所以还是要有</s>
<time>1025_00:38:47,802 --> 00:38:49,602</time>
<s>追究真实的态度</s>
<time>1026_00:38:50,322 --> 00:38:52,482</time>
<s>大家才能够摸索一些事情</s>
<time>1027_00:38:52,842 --> 00:38:53,562</time>
<s>你好比说</s>
<time>1028_00:38:55,002 --> 00:38:56,802</time>
<s>我们中国古代的文化</s>
<time>1029_00:38:57,162 --> 00:38:58,242</time>
<s>我认为是两个特点</s>
<time>1030_00:38:58,961 --> 00:39:00,402</time>
<s>一个它是乡土的</s>
<time>1031_00:39:02,202 --> 00:39:04,362</time>
<s>另外一个它是宗族的</s>
<time>1032_00:39:05,082 --> 00:39:05,442</time>
<s>农业社会</s>
<time>1033_00:39:05,802 --> 00:39:07,962</time>
<s>不可能远离这一亩三分地</s>
<time>1034_00:39:08,321 --> 00:39:09,762</time>
<s>《庄子》里讲的</s>
<time>1035_00:39:10,122 --> 00:39:12,282</time>
<s>适百里者宿春粮</s>
<time>1036_00:39:12,642 --> 00:39:15,162</time>
<s>适千里者三月聚粮</s>
<time>1037_00:39:15,522 --> 00:39:16,241</time>
<s>是什么意思</s>
<time>1038_00:39:16,962 --> 00:39:17,682</time>
<s>要走一百里</s>
<time>1039_00:39:19,122 --> 00:39:22,002</time>
<s>头天晚上要准备吃的饭</s>
<time>1040_00:39:22,362 --> 00:39:23,442</time>
<s>如果要走一千里</s>
<time>1041_00:39:23,802 --> 00:39:25,962</time>
<s>就要用三个月的时间准备粮食</s>
<time>1042_00:39:27,042 --> 00:39:27,402</time>
<s>农民的话</s>
<time>1043_00:39:28,122 --> 00:39:29,202</time>
<s>他活动的范围</s>
<time>1044_00:39:29,562 --> 00:39:30,642</time>
<s>就是这个半径</s>
<time>1045_00:39:31,362 --> 00:39:32,442</time>
<s>就是一个人</s>
<time>1046_00:39:32,802 --> 00:39:34,242</time>
<s>要当天能够赶回家</s>
<time>1047_00:39:34,602 --> 00:39:36,042</time>
<s>再远的地方他就不会去了</s>
<time>1048_00:39:37,482 --> 00:39:38,562</time>
<s>就是在外面做官</s>
<time>1049_00:39:38,922 --> 00:39:40,722</time>
<s>几十年以后回去</s>
<time>1050_00:39:41,082 --> 00:39:43,962</time>
<s>老家的开小店的父亲死了</s>
<time>1051_00:39:44,322 --> 00:39:45,762</time>
<s>儿子要（继承）开店</s>
<time>1052_00:39:46,122 --> 00:39:47,562</time>
<s>那个门面铺面板子</s>
<time>1053_00:39:47,922 --> 00:39:48,642</time>
<s>都没有换的</s>
<time>1054_00:39:49,002 --> 00:39:50,082</time>
<s>没有变的</s>
<time>1055_00:39:50,442 --> 00:39:52,602</time>
<s>但是中国历史又充满了破坏力</s>
<time>1056_00:39:52,962 --> 00:39:54,402</time>
<s>比如说朝代一更迭</s>
<time>1057_00:39:55,122 --> 00:39:56,202</time>
<s>破坏力是破坏力</s>
<time>1058_00:39:56,562 --> 00:39:57,642</time>
<s>但是观念没有变</s>
<time>1059_00:39:58,722 --> 00:40:00,522</time>
<s>就是他的天地观</s>
<time>1060_00:40:00,882 --> 00:40:01,242</time>
<s>他的宇宙观</s>
<time>1061_00:40:01,602 --> 00:40:03,402</time>
<s>和他的人生观都没有变的</s>
<time>1062_00:40:03,762 --> 00:40:06,642</time>
<s>还是相信这个菩萨</s>
<time>1063_00:40:07,002 --> 00:40:07,722</time>
<s>那您说现在是不是</s>
<time>1064_00:40:08,082 --> 00:40:08,442</time>
<s>真的变了</s>
<time>1065_00:40:08,802 --> 00:40:09,882</time>
<s>那是现在变了</s>
<time>1066_00:40:10,241 --> 00:40:12,042</time>
<s>其实中国内在的变</s>
<time>1067_00:40:12,402 --> 00:40:15,281</time>
<s>我认为中国传统社会在变</s>
<time>1068_00:40:15,642 --> 00:40:17,802</time>
<s>是在晚明就开始了</s>
<time>1069_00:40:18,162 --> 00:40:19,241</time>
<s>自从有了工商业</s>
<time>1070_00:40:19,962 --> 00:40:21,042</time>
<s>有了市民</s>
<time>1071_00:40:21,762 --> 00:40:23,202</time>
<s>就是有了市民的那些小说</s>
<time>1072_00:40:24,642 --> 00:40:26,442</time>
<s>有了小说里面的那种生活</s>
<time>1073_00:40:27,162 --> 00:40:28,962</time>
<s>卖油郎也可以去独占花魁</s>
<time>1074_00:40:29,682 --> 00:40:31,482</time>
<s>有了这个市井的生活</s>
<time>1075_00:40:31,842 --> 00:40:32,201</time>
<s>它就慢慢地</s>
<time>1076_00:40:32,562 --> 00:40:34,722</time>
<s>慢慢地传统社会就在崩坏了</s>
<time>1077_00:40:35,082 --> 00:40:36,522</time>
<s>但是这个变化很慢</s>
<time>1078_00:40:38,322 --> 00:40:39,042</time>
<s>再加上一点</s>
<time>1079_00:40:39,401 --> 00:40:40,842</time>
<s>就是最后一个王朝</s>
<time>1080_00:40:41,202 --> 00:40:41,922</time>
<s>是少数民族</s>
<time>1081_00:40:43,002 --> 00:40:44,082</time>
<s>于是只有两条办法</s>
<time>1082_00:40:44,442 --> 00:40:45,522</time>
<s>一条是赶快汉化</s>
<time>1083_00:40:45,882 --> 00:40:47,322</time>
<s>自己要掌握文化</s>
<time>1084_00:40:48,042 --> 00:40:48,402</time>
<s>第二条</s>
<time>1085_00:40:48,762 --> 00:40:51,282</time>
<s>不能够引入其它的竞争者</s>
<time>1086_00:40:53,082 --> 00:40:53,802</time>
<s>所以海禁</s>
<time>1087_00:40:54,162 --> 00:40:55,602</time>
<s>锁国</s>
<time>1088_00:40:55,962 --> 00:40:57,402</time>
<s>这样又把中国的历史进程</s>
<time>1089_00:40:57,761 --> 00:40:59,922</time>
<s>又推迟了几百年</s>
<time>1090_00:41:01,002 --> 00:41:01,362</time>
<s>不然的话</s>
<time>1091_00:41:01,722 --> 00:41:03,522</time>
<s>最后中国也许会接受</s>
<time>1092_00:41:03,882 --> 00:41:05,682</time>
<s>从上而下地进行改革</s>
<time>1093_00:41:08,201 --> 00:41:08,922</time>
<s>您觉得这个选择</s>
<time>1094_00:41:09,282 --> 00:41:10,362</time>
<s>现在想起来这个是个选择吗</s>
<time>1095_00:41:10,722 --> 00:41:11,442</time>
<s>这是一个选择</s>
<time>1096_00:41:11,802 --> 00:41:13,242</time>
<s>但是在中国行不通</s>
<time>1097_00:41:13,602 --> 00:41:14,322</time>
<s>为什么</s>
<time>1098_00:41:14,682 --> 00:41:15,402</time>
<s>孙中山提出</s>
<time>1099_00:41:15,761 --> 00:41:16,842</time>
<s>驱除虏</s>
<time>1100_00:41:17,201 --> 00:41:17,922</time>
<s>恢复中华</s>
<time>1101_00:41:18,282 --> 00:41:19,002</time>
<s>建立民国</s>
<time>1102_00:41:19,362 --> 00:41:20,441</time>
<s>平均地权</s>
<time>1103_00:41:21,522 --> 00:41:23,322</time>
<s>当时参加孙中山革命的人</s>
<time>1104_00:41:23,682 --> 00:41:27,282</time>
<s>百分之九十都赞成前两条</s>
<time>1105_00:41:27,642 --> 00:41:29,441</time>
<s>天下是我们汉人的天下</s>
<time>1106_00:41:30,161 --> 00:41:31,602</time>
<s>长沙推翻了清朝</s>
<time>1107_00:41:31,962 --> 00:41:33,402</time>
<s>就把大清门改为</s>
<time>1108_00:41:33,762 --> 00:41:34,482</time>
<s>兴汉门</s>
<time>1109_00:41:34,842 --> 00:41:35,562</time>
<s>现在还叫做兴汉门</s>
<time>1110_00:41:35,922 --> 00:41:36,281</time>
<s>兴汉门</s>
<time>1111_00:41:37,002 --> 00:41:38,082</time>
<s>就是那时候参加孙中山</s>
<time>1112_00:41:38,442 --> 00:41:39,162</time>
<s>推翻满清的人</s>
<time>1113_00:41:39,522 --> 00:41:40,241</time>
<s>百分之八十至百分之九十</s>
<time>1114_00:41:40,602 --> 00:41:42,762</time>
<s>是接受前两句</s>
<time>1115_00:41:43,842 --> 00:41:45,642</time>
<s>至于接受建立民国的</s>
<time>1116_00:41:46,002 --> 00:41:48,522</time>
<s>（我认为只有百分之十到二十</s>
<time>1117_00:41:49,962 --> 00:41:51,402</time>
<s>就因为要推翻帝制</s>
<time>1118_00:41:52,842 --> 00:41:54,642</time>
<s>如果中国把皇帝推翻了</s>
<time>1119_00:41:55,002 --> 00:41:56,442</time>
<s>就是很多个小皇帝</s>
<time>1120_00:41:56,802 --> 00:41:57,882</time>
<s>和野皇帝</s>
<time>1121_00:41:58,241 --> 00:41:59,322</time>
<s>这个康有为讲对了</s>
<time>1122_00:42:00,762 --> 00:42:01,122</time>
<s>很多军阀</s>
<time>1123_00:42:02,562 --> 00:42:03,642</time>
<s>大家都要做皇帝</s>
<time>1124_00:42:04,362 --> 00:42:05,802</time>
<s>至于平均地权</s>
<time>1125_00:42:06,162 --> 00:42:07,962</time>
<s>那就没有百分之一同意了</s>
<time>1126_00:42:09,402 --> 00:42:10,122</time>
<s>就正好说明</s>
<time>1127_00:42:10,482 --> 00:42:12,282</time>
<s>刚才你提出来的一个问题</s>
<time>1128_00:42:12,642 --> 00:42:14,082</time>
<s>我编“走向世界丛书”</s>
<time>1129_00:42:15,882 --> 00:42:17,322</time>
<s>是因为我要记录下</s>
<time>1130_00:42:17,682 --> 00:42:19,482</time>
<s>中国人走向世界的脚步</s>
<time>1131_00:42:20,562 --> 00:42:21,282</time>
<s>我认为这个脚步</s>
<time>1132_00:42:21,642 --> 00:42:23,802</time>
<s>是特别迟缓</s>
<time>1133_00:42:24,162 --> 00:42:24,882</time>
<s>曲折</s>
<time>1134_00:42:25,241 --> 00:42:25,962</time>
<s>迁回</s>
<time>1135_00:42:26,322 --> 00:42:27,402</time>
<s>和艰难的</s>
<time>1136_00:42:27,762 --> 00:42:29,922</time>
<s>因为中国的传统</s>
<time>1137_00:42:31,361 --> 00:42:33,882</time>
<s>重担是特别的沉重</s>
<time>1138_00:42:37,122 --> 00:42:39,282</time>
<s>因为中国有悠久的传统文明</s>
<time>1139_00:42:40,362 --> 00:42:41,442</time>
<s>这一点是我们应该</s>
<time>1140_00:42:41,802 --> 00:42:42,881</time>
<s>用骄傲的口气来说的</s>
<time>1141_00:42:43,602 --> 00:42:45,042</time>
<s>但是正因为是这样</s>
<time>1142_00:42:45,762 --> 00:42:47,201</time>
<s>正因为我们是大家子弟</s>
<time>1143_00:42:48,281 --> 00:42:49,002</time>
<s>所以这种</s>
<time>1144_00:42:50,802 --> 00:42:51,162</time>
<s>文化</s>
<time>1145_00:42:52,241 --> 00:42:54,761</time>
<s>它自我复制的能力特别强</s>
<time>1146_00:42:56,922 --> 00:42:58,722</time>
<s>它的惯性特别大</s>
<time>1147_00:42:59,442 --> 00:43:00,522</time>
<s>物理学上讲的</s>
<time>1148_00:43:00,882 --> 00:43:03,042</time>
<s>体量越大的东西惯性越大</s>
<time>1149_00:43:03,402 --> 00:43:05,562</time>
<s>我们几亿人口摆在这个地方</s>
<time>1150_00:43:06,642 --> 00:43:08,442</time>
<s>那么多典籍摆在这个地方</s>
<time>1151_00:43:08,802 --> 00:43:09,522</time>
<s>这个体量够大的了</s>
<time>1152_00:43:10,962 --> 00:43:12,762</time>
<s>所以这种国家的</s>
<time>1153_00:43:13,842 --> 00:43:14,562</time>
<s>更新</s>
<time>1154_00:43:15,642 --> 00:43:16,002</time>
<s>革新</s>
<time>1155_00:43:17,082 --> 00:43:17,442</time>
<s>改革</s>
<time>1156_00:43:19,962 --> 00:43:21,402</time>
<s>会是特别艰难的</s>
<time>1157_00:43:21,762 --> 00:43:23,922</time>
<s>它不会在一两代人之间</s>
<time>1158_00:43:24,282 --> 00:43:25,362</time>
<s>就很轻易地完成</s>
<time>1159_00:43:27,161 --> 00:43:28,962</time>
<s>所以我觉得这些书</s>
<time>1160_00:43:29,322 --> 00:43:31,842</time>
<s>虽然是百年前的作品</s>
<time>1161_00:43:32,202 --> 00:43:32,562</time>
<s>但是</s>
<time>1162_00:43:32,922 --> 00:43:34,362</time>
<s>我们现在也还是</s>
<time>1163_00:43:35,442 --> 00:43:36,882</time>
<s>他们所摸索的</s>
<time>1164_00:43:37,242 --> 00:43:39,042</time>
<s>进程的继续</s>
<time>1165_00:43:39,762 --> 00:43:41,922</time>
<s>那个过程并没有终止</s>
<time>1166_00:43:43,362 --> 00:43:46,241</time>
<s>也并没有圆满地到达终点</s>
<time>1167_00:43:47,682 --> 00:43:48,762</time>
<s>它也不会有终点</s>
<time>1168_00:43:50,202 --> 00:43:51,642</time>
<s>他们有时候的一些苦恼</s>
<time>1169_00:43:52,002 --> 00:43:55,241</time>
<s>他们的一些摸索</s>
<time>1170_00:43:55,602 --> 00:43:57,042</time>
<s>对于我们现代的人</s>
<time>1171_00:43:57,402 --> 00:43:59,202</time>
<s>还有直接的意义</s>
<time>1172_00:44:01,002 --> 00:44:02,442</time>
<s>我认为我们现在很多的人</s>
<time>1173_00:44:02,802 --> 00:44:03,882</time>
<s>包括我自己</s>
<time>1174_00:44:04,241 --> 00:44:06,762</time>
<s>还没有达到他们最高的水平</s>
<time>1175_00:44:07,482 --> 00:44:08,922</time>
<s>那您会有某种</s>
<time>1176_00:44:10,722 --> 00:44:11,082</time>
<s>挫败感吗</s>
<time>1177_00:44:11,802 --> 00:44:12,882</time>
<s>就比如说我们一直在摸索</s>
<time>1178_00:44:13,241 --> 00:44:13,962</time>
<s>但是结果我们</s>
<time>1179_00:44:14,322 --> 00:44:14,681</time>
<s>一个多世纪之后</s>
<time>1180_00:44:15,042 --> 00:44:16,482</time>
<s>我们也没有提高太多</s>
<time>1181_00:44:16,842 --> 00:44:17,922</time>
<s>也没有</s>
<time>1182_00:44:18,282 --> 00:44:20,442</time>
<s>我们一个人一生算得了什么</s>
<time>1183_00:44:22,602 --> 00:44:23,682</time>
<s>我父亲就是讲</s>
<time>1184_00:44:24,042 --> 00:44:26,202</time>
<s>他讲他自己不努力</s>
<time>1185_00:44:27,282 --> 00:44:28,721</time>
<s>这一点他在我面前讲</s>
<time>1186_00:44:30,161 --> 00:44:30,882</time>
<s>一是不努力</s>
<time>1187_00:44:31,962 --> 00:44:32,681</time>
<s>不刻苦</s>
<time>1188_00:44:33,401 --> 00:44:34,122</time>
<s>好比我的同学</s>
<time>1189_00:44:35,202 --> 00:44:35,562</time>
<s>他这一点</s>
<time>1190_00:44:35,922 --> 00:44:36,642</time>
<s>是用一种</s>
<time>1191_00:44:37,002 --> 00:44:38,082</time>
<s>骄傲的口气讲的</s>
<time>1192_00:44:38,442 --> 00:44:40,241</time>
<s>武如蔡良寅（蔡号）</s>
<time>1193_00:44:40,962 --> 00:44:42,042</time>
<s>文就是范源濂</s>
<time>1194_00:44:42,762 --> 00:44:43,122</time>
<s>范源</s>
<time>1195_00:44:43,482 --> 00:44:44,562</time>
<s>他当了教育总部长</s>
<time>1196_00:44:45,642 --> 00:44:47,802</time>
<s>做学问就如杨树达</s>
<time>1197_00:44:48,882 --> 00:44:50,322</time>
<s>搞政法如章士钊</s>
<time>1198_00:44:50,681 --> 00:44:51,401</time>
<s>章士钊</s>
<time>1199_00:44:51,762 --> 00:44:52,482</time>
<s>都很成功</s>
<time>1200_00:44:52,842 --> 00:44:54,281</time>
<s>他说我是碌碌无为</s>
<time>1201_00:44:54,642 --> 00:44:56,442</time>
<s>就说你们不要学我的样</s>
<time>1202_00:44:57,882 --> 00:44:58,602</time>
<s>你要以我为诚</s>
<time>1203_00:44:58,962 --> 00:45:00,042</time>
<s>自己要搞一门学问</s>
<time>1204_00:45:00,402 --> 00:45:01,122</time>
<s>不管怎么样</s>
<time>1205_00:45:01,482 --> 00:45:04,002</time>
<s>要做出一点东西流传后世</s>
<time>1206_00:45:05,082 --> 00:45:05,802</time>
<s>他是这样讲的</s>
<time>1207_00:45:06,882 --> 00:45:09,042</time>
<s>我们其实</s>
<time>1208_00:45:09,402 --> 00:45:10,482</time>
<s>像我这样的人</s>
<time>1209_00:45:10,842 --> 00:45:13,362</time>
<s>我自己没有什么显赫的家世</s>
<time>1210_00:45:13,722 --> 00:45:15,162</time>
<s>我从来就对自己已没有什么</s>
<time>1211_00:45:15,522 --> 00:45:17,322</time>
<s>很大的理想</s>
<time>1212_00:45:17,682 --> 00:45:18,762</time>
<s>就叫人生无大志</s>
<time>1213_00:45:19,122 --> 00:45:20,562</time>
<s>只求六十分</s>
<time>1214_00:45:21,282 --> 00:45:22,002</time>
<s>我很喜欢这句话</s>
<time>1215_00:45:23,442 --> 00:45:24,162</time>
<s>但是我有一点</s>
<time>1216_00:45:25,962 --> 00:45:26,322</time>
<s>就是我希望</s>
<time>1217_00:45:26,682 --> 00:45:27,762</time>
<s>能够自由地看书</s>
<time>1218_00:45:28,122 --> 00:45:29,562</time>
<s>看我想看什么书</s>
<time>1219_00:45:30,282 --> 00:45:30,642</time>
<s>不久以前</s>
<time>1220_00:45:31,002 --> 00:45:32,802</time>
<s>我在找这些老照片</s>
<time>1221_00:45:33,522 --> 00:45:34,602</time>
<s>找出一本就在</s>
<time>1222_00:45:36,042 --> 00:45:37,122</time>
<s>就在我写信给周作人</s>
<time>1223_00:45:37,482 --> 00:45:38,562</time>
<s>之后不久的事</s>
<time>1224_00:45:38,922 --> 00:45:40,722</time>
<s>就是我被抓去坐牢以前</s>
<time>1225_00:45:41,442 --> 00:45:42,522</time>
<s>我们那四个人</s>
<time>1226_00:45:42,882 --> 00:45:43,962</time>
<s>包括朱正在内的四个人</s>
<time>1227_00:45:44,322 --> 00:45:45,042</time>
<s>有个小集团</s>
<time>1228_00:45:47,202 --> 00:45:48,282</time>
<s>有个叫张志浩的</s>
<time>1229_00:45:48,642 --> 00:45:49,002</time>
<s>找到了一本</s>
<time>1230_00:45:50,442 --> 00:45:51,522</time>
<s>郁达夫的诗集</s>
<time>1231_00:45:52,602 --> 00:45:53,681</time>
<s>又有个人叫俞润泉</s>
<time>1232_00:45:54,042 --> 00:45:55,482</time>
<s>一个通宵还是两个通宵</s>
<time>1233_00:45:55,842 --> 00:45:57,281</time>
<s>白天要干活了</s>
<time>1234_00:45:57,642 --> 00:45:59,082</time>
<s>他就复写了四份</s>
<time>1235_00:46:02,322 --> 00:46:03,042</time>
<s>有这么厚一本</s>
<time>1236_00:46:05,562 --> 00:46:05,922</time>
<s>我记得当时</s>
<time>1237_00:46:06,281 --> 00:46:07,721</time>
<s>这四份给我们四个人</s>
<time>1238_00:46:08,082 --> 00:46:09,522</time>
<s>拿在一起也是很高兴的</s>
<time>1239_00:46:10,241 --> 00:46:11,322</time>
<s>俞润泉还在我书上面</s>
<time>1240_00:46:11,682 --> 00:46:12,762</time>
<s>写了几句题跋</s>
<time>1241_00:46:13,842 --> 00:46:16,002</time>
<s>锺生日行于市</s>
<time>1242_00:46:16,361 --> 00:46:17,082</time>
<s>欲霓（寻找）奇书</s>
<time>1243_00:46:17,442 --> 00:46:19,962</time>
<s>虽大饼之堆于前</s>
<time>1244_00:46:20,322 --> 00:46:22,122</time>
<s>虽然大饼堆在面前</s>
<time>1245_00:46:22,482 --> 00:46:23,562</time>
<s>粮票之堆于侧</s>
<time>1246_00:46:23,922 --> 00:46:25,002</time>
<s>而亦无此乐</s>
<time>1247_00:46:26,802 --> 00:46:28,241</time>
<s>所以当了右派</s>
<time>1248_00:46:28,602 --> 00:46:30,761</time>
<s>也并不是说天天愁眉苦脸</s>
<time>1249_00:46:31,122 --> 00:46:31,842</time>
<s>等着死</s>
<time>1250_00:46:32,202 --> 00:46:32,922</time>
<s>不是很那样的</s>
<time>1251_00:46:33,282 --> 00:46:33,642</time>
<s>那活不到现在的</s>
<time>1252_00:46:35,442 --> 00:46:36,881</time>
<s>原来我跟朱纯（妻子）说</s>
<time>1253_00:46:38,322 --> 00:46:39,762</time>
<s>饭还是要吃的</s>
<time>1254_00:46:40,842 --> 00:46:41,562</time>
<s>书还是要读的</s>
<time>1255_00:46:42,282 --> 00:46:44,082</time>
<s>要我们死我们是不得死的</s>
<time>1256_00:46:46,242 --> 00:46:47,322</time>
<s>这是我的原话</s>
<time>1257_00:46:48,402 --> 00:46:49,482</time>
<s>确实我是这么想的</s>
<time>1258_00:46:52,362 --> 00:46:53,801</time>
<s>也还是蛮愉快的</s>
<time>1259_00:46:55,962 --> 00:46:56,322</time>
<s>但您经历过的</s>
<time>1260_00:46:56,682 --> 00:46:57,762</time>
<s>人生的一大部分</s>
<time>1261_00:46:58,122 --> 00:46:59,562</time>
<s>就是最受限的时候</s>
<time>1262_00:47:00,642 --> 00:47:01,362</time>
<s>那是很强大的</s>
<time>1263_00:47:02,802 --> 00:47:03,162</time>
<s>但是</s>
<time>1264_00:47:04,242 --> 00:47:06,042</time>
<s>我还没把自已看得那么小</s>
<time>1265_00:47:10,002 --> 00:47:11,082</time>
<s>这两个是吧</s>
<time>1266_00:47:16,482 --> 00:47:17,202</time>
<s>太巧了</s>
<time>1267_00:47:19,722 --> 00:47:20,802</time>
<s>这有东西</s>
<time>1268_00:47:21,162 --> 00:47:22,962</time>
<s>这都是我自己手作的</s>
<time>1269_00:47:24,042 --> 00:47:24,762</time>
<s>我来帮您拿吧</s>
<time>1270_00:47:26,922 --> 00:47:28,002</time>
<s>这不要掉在地下</s>
<time>1271_00:47:28,722 --> 00:47:29,082</time>
<s>我来我来</s>
<time>1272_00:47:29,442 --> 00:47:31,602</time>
<s>竹筒掉在地下就会破</s>
<time>1273_00:47:33,402 --> 00:47:35,202</time>
<s>这是我在劳改队做的</s>
<time>1274_00:47:35,922 --> 00:47:36,642</time>
<s>带给朱纯的</s>
<time>1275_00:47:37,362 --> 00:47:38,442</time>
<s>写了朱纯的地址和名字</s>
<time>1276_00:47:38,802 --> 00:47:39,522</time>
<s>这上面还有</s>
<time>1277_00:47:40,241 --> 00:47:43,122</time>
<s>教育街十七号朱纯收</s>
<time>1278_00:47:43,482 --> 00:47:44,562</time>
<s>应该是1975年</s>
<time>1279_00:47:44,922 --> 00:47:46,362</time>
<s>1974年左右做的</s>
<time>1280_00:47:46,722 --> 00:47:48,162</time>
<s>字也是我刻的</s>
<time>1281_00:47:48,522 --> 00:47:49,602</time>
<s>斑竹一枝千滴泪</s>
<time>1282_00:47:50,322 --> 00:47:51,402</time>
<s>也正好是我的心情</s>
<time>1283_00:47:51,762 --> 00:47:52,842</time>
<s>斑竹一枝千滴泪</s>
<time>1284_00:47:53,202 --> 00:47:54,282</time>
<s>这是我吃饭的</s>
<time>1285_00:47:54,642 --> 00:47:55,722</time>
<s>这一边装饭一边打菜</s>
<time>1286_00:47:56,082 --> 00:47:57,882</time>
<s>里面放一副筷子</s>
<time>1287_00:47:58,242 --> 00:47:59,322</time>
<s>这竹子怎么找来的</s>
<time>1288_00:48:00,042 --> 00:48:01,122</time>
<s>劳改队什么东西都有</s>
<time>1289_00:48:02,562 --> 00:48:05,442</time>
<s>有竹匠有篦匠有木匠</s>
<time>1290_00:48:08,322 --> 00:48:08,682</time>
<s>这怎么用啊</s>
<time>1291_00:48:09,042 --> 00:48:10,482</time>
<s>这个不是凭空做的</s>
<time>1292_00:48:11,562 --> 00:48:13,362</time>
<s>欧洲的刨子木刨</s>
<time>1293_00:48:13,721 --> 00:48:14,801</time>
<s>都是这样的</s>
<time>1294_00:48:15,522 --> 00:48:16,962</time>
<s>中国是这里搞一个手柄</s>
<time>1295_00:48:17,322 --> 00:48:17,682</time>
<s>这样搞的</s>
<time>1296_00:48:18,762 --> 00:48:20,201</time>
<s>我认为欧洲的创子</s>
<time>1297_00:48:20,562 --> 00:48:20,921</time>
<s>好一些</s>
<time>1298_00:48:21,282 --> 00:48:22,002</time>
<s>合理一些</s>
<time>1299_00:48:22,722 --> 00:48:23,442</time>
<s>这个拿的手势</s>
<time>1300_00:48:23,802 --> 00:48:25,962</time>
<s>就是钳工拿锉刀的手势</s>
<time>1301_00:48:26,322 --> 00:48:27,402</time>
<s>这样容易平衡一些</s>
<time>1302_00:48:28,482 --> 00:48:28,842</time>
<s>中国的创</s>
<time>1303_00:48:29,202 --> 00:48:30,282</time>
<s>有个很大的缺点</s>
<time>1304_00:48:31,722 --> 00:48:32,802</time>
<s>这个创口在这里</s>
<time>1305_00:48:33,162 --> 00:48:34,962</time>
<s>如果这个板子要刨平</s>
<time>1306_00:48:35,322 --> 00:48:37,842</time>
<s>要把它刀口推到头</s>
<time>1307_00:48:39,282 --> 00:48:40,722</time>
<s>它才能够刨到这里来</s>
