<time>558_00:25:30,233 --> 00:25:30,567</time>
<s>所在的那个墓葬</s>
<time>559_00:25:33,033 --> 00:25:34,433</time>
<s>其实也出了一批人骨头</s>
<time>560_00:25:35,467 --> 00:25:36,167</time>
<s>这批人骨头在哪呢</s>
<time>561_00:25:37,233 --> 00:25:37,567</time>
<s>在墓道里头</s>
<time>562_00:25:38,633 --> 00:25:40,367</time>
<s>墓道里有22个人头</s>
<time>563_00:25:42,133 --> 00:25:42,833</time>
<s>你们可能会奇怪</s>
<time>564_00:25:43,533 --> 00:25:44,567</time>
<s>司母戊鼎不是1939年挖出来的吗</s>
<time>565_00:25:44,933 --> 00:25:45,967</time>
<s>你怎么又发现人头了</s>
<time>566_00:25:46,667 --> 00:25:47,033</time>
<s>它是这样的</s>
<time>567_00:25:47,733 --> 00:25:49,133</time>
<s>司母戊鼎是1939年出的</s>
<time>568_00:25:49,833 --> 00:25:50,533</time>
<s>出完以后</s>
<time>569_00:25:51,233 --> 00:25:53,333</time>
<s>1946年作为礼品</s>
<time>570_00:25:54,033 --> 00:25:55,433</time>
<s>送到南京给蒋介石祝寿</s>
<time>571_00:25:56,467 --> 00:25:57,867</time>
<s>后来就放到了南京博物院</s>
<time>572_00:25:58,233 --> 00:25:59,967</time>
<s>后来又调到了北京</s>
<time>573_00:26:00,667 --> 00:26:01,033</time>
<s>放到了国家博物馆</s>
<time>574_00:26:02,067 --> 00:26:02,767</time>
<s>这是司母戊鼎的故事</s>
<time>575_00:26:03,833 --> 00:26:04,867</time>
<s>但是司母戊鼎那个墓葬</s>
<time>576_00:26:06,633 --> 00:26:06,967</time>
<s>一直没有挖</s>
<time>577_00:26:08,033 --> 00:26:10,133</time>
<s>直到1984年</s>
<time>578_00:26:10,833 --> 00:26:13,267</time>
<s>我们考古队才重新把司母戊鼎</s>
<time>579_00:26:14,333 --> 00:26:15,367</time>
<s>所在那个墓挖开</s>
<time>580_00:26:16,067 --> 00:26:18,167</time>
<s>因为这个是当地人指认的</s>
<time>581_00:26:18,867 --> 00:26:20,267</time>
<s>说司母戊鼎当年就在这出的</s>
<time>582_00:26:22,033 --> 00:26:22,733</time>
<s>我们挖下去一看</s>
<time>583_00:26:23,433 --> 00:26:23,767</time>
<s>果然地下有一个墓葬</s>
<time>584_00:26:24,467 --> 00:26:25,533</time>
<s>还就是那个地方有个墓葬</s>
<time>585_00:26:26,567 --> 00:26:27,633</time>
<s>所以这个墓葬</s>
<time>586_00:26:28,333 --> 00:26:29,367</time>
<s>确实就应该就是司母戊鼎</s>
<time>587_00:26:30,067 --> 00:26:30,433</time>
<s>所在的这个墓葬</s>
<time>588_00:26:31,133 --> 00:26:32,533</time>
<s>这个墓的墓道里有22个人头</s>
<time>589_00:26:33,233 --> 00:26:33,933</time>
<s>我们用同样的办法</s>
<time>590_00:26:34,633 --> 00:26:36,733</time>
<s>把它提取做锶同位素</s>
<time>591_00:26:37,433 --> 00:26:39,867</time>
<s>结果发现这一座墓的墓道里头</s>
<time>592_00:26:40,233 --> 00:26:42,333</time>
<s>22个人头最少有13个</s>
<time>593_00:26:43,367 --> 00:26:44,433</time>
<s>或者14个数据</s>
<time>594_00:26:45,133 --> 00:26:48,633</time>
<s>是跟西北边的是一样的</s>
<time>595_00:26:49,333 --> 00:26:49,667</time>
<s>也就是说</s>
<time>596_00:26:50,733 --> 00:26:51,067</time>
<s>司母戊鼎的墓里头</s>
<time>597_00:26:51,767 --> 00:26:52,467</time>
<s>也用了很多的羌人祭祀</s>
<time>598_00:26:53,167 --> 00:26:54,233</time>
<s>但是反过来讲</s>
<time>599_00:26:54,567 --> 00:26:55,967</time>
<s>为什么只有13个或者14个呢</s>
<time>600_00:26:56,333 --> 00:26:57,367</time>
<s>因为有一个稍微近一点</s>
<time>601_00:26:57,733 --> 00:26:58,067</time>
<s>还不敢判断</s>
<time>602_00:26:59,467 --> 00:27:02,967</time>
<s>另外有6个是南部的</s>
<time>603_00:27:04,367 --> 00:27:05,767</time>
<s>商朝的人除了杀羌人</s>
<time>604_00:27:06,133 --> 00:27:06,467</time>
<s>还杀其他地方的人</s>
<time>605_00:27:07,533 --> 00:27:09,267</time>
<s>三千年前杀人这个事</s>
<time>606_00:27:10,667 --> 00:27:12,433</time>
<s>是一个普遍的现象</s>
<time>607_00:27:13,133 --> 00:27:14,533</time>
<s>因为除了王陵区之外</s>
<time>608_00:27:15,567 --> 00:27:18,033</time>
<s>像这样的普通的墓地</s>
<time>609_00:27:18,367 --> 00:27:20,467</time>
<s>就是非王族的墓地里面的墓道</s>
<time>610_00:27:21,533 --> 00:27:22,567</time>
<s>也经常出人骨头</s>
<time>611_00:27:22,933 --> 00:27:23,267</time>
<s>成批地杀</s>
<time>612_00:27:23,633 --> 00:27:26,067</time>
<s>其他地方也成坑成坑地发现人骨头</s>
<time>613_00:27:26,767 --> 00:27:29,233</time>
<s>比方说墓葬的二层台上</s>
<time>614_00:27:29,567 --> 00:27:30,967</time>
<s>经常会出现人骨头</s>
<time>615_00:27:31,667 --> 00:27:33,433</time>
<s>甚至路边还有杀祭</s>
<time>616_00:27:34,133 --> 00:27:35,867</time>
<s>把人杀掉以后放到那</s>
<time>617_00:27:36,567 --> 00:27:37,967</time>
<s>就说那确实是一个</s>
<time>618_00:27:39,033 --> 00:27:41,133</time>
<s>杀人习以为常的时代</s>
<time>619_00:27:42,533 --> 00:27:42,867</time>
<s>杀人有目的</s>
<time>620_00:27:43,233 --> 00:27:43,567</time>
<s>有什么目的呢</s>
<time>621_00:27:44,633 --> 00:27:46,033</time>
<s>祭祀祖先</s>
<time>622_00:27:47,067 --> 00:27:47,767</time>
<s>让祖先高兴</s>
<time>623_00:27:50,233 --> 00:27:50,933</time>
<s>带血祭祀</s>
<time>624_00:27:51,633 --> 00:27:51,967</time>
<s>比方说</s>
<time>625_00:27:54,067 --> 00:27:54,767</time>
<s>人去世以后</s>
<time>626_00:27:55,467 --> 00:27:57,933</time>
<s>杀人放到主人的棺材的边上</s>
<time>627_00:27:59,667 --> 00:28:01,433</time>
<s>让这个祖先在另一个世界</s>
<time>628_00:28:02,467 --> 00:28:03,167</time>
<s>也有人伺候</s>
<time>629_00:28:03,533 --> 00:28:04,233</time>
<s>也有人保卫</s>
<time>630_00:28:04,933 --> 00:28:07,367</time>
<s>所以有的时候我们挖开</s>
<time>631_00:28:07,733 --> 00:28:08,767</time>
<s>稍微大一点的墓葬</s>
<time>632_00:28:09,467 --> 00:28:10,533</time>
<s>墓葬的棺材底下还有腰坑</s>
<time>633_00:28:11,233 --> 00:28:11,567</time>
<s>腰坑里还埋着人</s>
<time>634_00:28:12,967 --> 00:28:14,033</time>
<s>这个人还拿着一把铜戈</s>
<time>635_00:28:15,433 --> 00:28:15,767</time>
<s>防卫的</s>
<time>636_00:28:16,467 --> 00:28:17,533</time>
<s>有的腰坑里埋一条狗</s>
<time>637_00:28:17,867 --> 00:28:19,967</time>
<s>当然狗是所谓的</s>
<time>638_00:28:20,333 --> 00:28:21,733</time>
<s>不让鬼神滋扰这个主人</s>
<time>639_00:28:22,433 --> 00:28:23,467</time>
<s>这样的话</s>
<time>640_00:28:24,867 --> 00:28:28,033</time>
<s>我们从考古的材料里头</s>
<time>641_00:28:28,733 --> 00:28:29,067</time>
<s>得到了一个</s>
<time>642_00:28:29,767 --> 00:28:30,833</time>
<s>让我们很吃惊的一个时代</s>
<time>643_00:28:32,233 --> 00:28:33,267</time>
<s>我们绕不开的一个时代</s>
<time>644_00:28:33,967 --> 00:28:34,667</time>
<s>就是杀人的时代</s>
<time>645_00:28:35,733 --> 00:28:37,133</time>
<s>过去我跟人讲商王朝</s>
<time>646_00:28:37,467 --> 00:28:37,833</time>
<s>讲到杀人的时候</s>
<time>647_00:28:38,867 --> 00:28:39,233</time>
<s>很多人告诉我说</s>
<time>648_00:28:39,933 --> 00:28:40,267</time>
<s>不用讲这些东西</s>
<time>649_00:28:40,967 --> 00:28:42,733</time>
<s>你讲的中国文明的阴暗面</s>
<time>650_00:28:43,067 --> 00:28:43,433</time>
<s>你讲它干吗</s>
<time>651_00:28:46,567 --> 00:28:48,333</time>
<s>你要说它是中国文明的阴暗面</s>
<time>652_00:28:49,367 --> 00:28:50,433</time>
<s>但是它确实存在过啊</s>
<time>653_00:28:52,533 --> 00:28:53,933</time>
<s>我们也不能回避这个事情</s>
<time>654_00:28:55,333 --> 00:28:57,067</time>
<s>当我们把这段特定的历史</s>
<time>655_00:28:57,433 --> 00:28:59,167</time>
<s>放到整个中国历史几千年来看</s>
<time>656_00:29:01,967 --> 00:29:03,733</time>
<s>我们会想到一个什么事呢</s>
<time>657_00:29:05,133 --> 00:29:05,467</time>
<s>孔子</s>
<time>658_00:29:06,867 --> 00:29:11,767</time>
<s>孔子作为我们国家历史上的一个文化符号</s>
<time>659_00:29:12,833 --> 00:29:14,567</time>
<s>他曾经提出过要仁政</s>
<time>660_00:29:14,933 --> 00:29:15,633</time>
<s>孔子复礼呀</s>
<time>661_00:29:15,967 --> 00:29:16,333</time>
<s>克己复礼</s>
<time>662_00:29:17,033 --> 00:29:18,433</time>
<s>孔子克己复礼复什么</s>
<time>663_00:29:19,833 --> 00:29:20,867</time>
<s>他说我复周礼</s>
<time>664_00:29:21,233 --> 00:29:21,933</time>
<s>吾从周</s>
<time>665_00:29:23,333 --> 00:29:25,067</time>
<s>他为什么不说吾从商</s>
<time>666_00:29:25,433 --> 00:29:26,133</time>
<s>吾从殷</s>
<time>667_00:29:27,533 --> 00:29:30,333</time>
<s>因为孔子知道商人是杀人的</s>
<time>668_00:29:31,033 --> 00:29:32,433</time>
<s>而周人是仁政</s>
<time>669_00:29:33,133 --> 00:29:34,167</time>
<s>所以他说吾从周</s>
<time>670_00:29:36,633 --> 00:29:37,333</time>
<s>从西周以后</s>
<time>671_00:29:38,033 --> 00:29:39,433</time>
<s>这个杀人的时代就结束了</s>
<time>672_00:29:40,133 --> 00:29:41,867</time>
<s>但这段历史确实是存在的</s>
<time>673_00:29:56,567 --> 00:29:57,267</time>
<s>如果横向看的话</s>
<time>674_00:29:57,967 --> 00:29:58,667</time>
<s>全世界其他地区的文明</s>
<time>675_00:29:59,033 --> 00:30:01,833</time>
<s>是不是也喜欢以杀人作为祭祀的方式</s>
<time>676_00:30:02,533 --> 00:30:06,367</time>
<s>杀人祭祀是当时商朝特定的行为吗</s>
<time>677_00:30:06,733 --> 00:30:08,133</time>
<s>杀人这个现象实际上</s>
<time>678_00:30:08,467 --> 00:30:10,233</time>
<s>也不是说只有古代中国有</s>
<time>679_00:30:11,267 --> 00:30:13,033</time>
<s>在世界上其他地方也有</s>
<time>680_00:30:14,067 --> 00:30:15,467</time>
<s>比方说美洲</s>
<time>681_00:30:16,167 --> 00:30:16,867</time>
<s>阿兹特克文明</s>
<time>682_00:30:17,567 --> 00:30:20,033</time>
<s>也是曾经杀人灭头的一个文明</s>
<time>683_00:30:20,367 --> 00:30:21,067</time>
<s>它很严重</s>
<time>684_00:30:21,433 --> 00:30:22,833</time>
<s>但是不像商朝那么严重</s>
<time>685_00:30:23,533 --> 00:30:27,033</time>
<s>刚刚在上海考古学大会里</s>
<time>686_00:30:27,367 --> 00:30:29,133</time>
<s>有一个获奖的研究</s>
<time>687_00:30:29,833 --> 00:30:30,167</time>
<s>有一个学者</s>
<time>688_00:30:30,867 --> 00:30:32,267</time>
<s>他在中美洲</s>
<time>689_00:30:33,667 --> 00:30:35,067</time>
<s>挖了一个土丘</s>
<time>690_00:30:36,133 --> 00:30:38,233</time>
<s>土丘下的台阶附近</s>
<time>691_00:30:38,567 --> 00:30:39,267</time>
<s>就发现了人头</s>
<time>692_00:30:40,667 --> 00:30:41,367</time>
<s>这是那个时候的一个反映</s>
<time>693_00:30:42,433 --> 00:30:43,133</time>
<s>但是那个时候杀的人头</s>
<time>694_00:30:43,467 --> 00:30:43,833</time>
<s>根据研究</s>
<time>695_00:30:44,533 --> 00:30:45,567</time>
<s>主要是用来表示</s>
<time>696_00:30:45,933 --> 00:30:47,333</time>
<s>我取得了战争的胜利</s>
<time>697_00:30:48,033 --> 00:30:49,433</time>
<s>我把俘虏的头拿过来了</s>
<time>698_00:30:49,767 --> 00:30:50,133</time>
<s>我砍杀在这</s>
<time>699_00:30:51,533 --> 00:30:51,867</time>
<s>它是表示这个</s>
<time>700_00:30:52,567 --> 00:30:55,367</time>
<s>可是商朝主要是用来祭祀祖先</s>
<time>701_00:30:56,433 --> 00:30:59,933</time>
<s>当时羌人形成了一个朝了吗</s>
<time>702_00:31:02,367 --> 00:31:03,433</time>
<s>于羌人的社会组织</s>
<time>703_00:31:03,767 --> 00:31:06,233</time>
<s>我们现在研究得不清楚</s>
<time>704_00:31:06,933 --> 00:31:07,633</time>
<s>但是有一点</s>
<time>705_00:31:08,333 --> 00:31:09,367</time>
<s>甲骨文上的文字</s>
<time>706_00:31:09,733 --> 00:31:10,433</time>
<s>这个羌的字</s>
<time>707_00:31:11,467 --> 00:31:12,167</time>
<s>有很多不同的写法</s>
<time>708_00:31:13,933 --> 00:31:15,667</time>
<s>可以证明羌朝有很多分支</s>
<time>709_00:31:19,533 --> 00:31:20,233</time>
<s>所以刚才我讲羌人</s>
<time>710_00:31:20,567 --> 00:31:21,267</time>
<s>没有一个好的社会组织</s>
<time>711_00:31:22,667 --> 00:31:24,067</time>
<s>它可能就是一个个分支</s>
<time>712_00:31:24,767 --> 00:31:26,167</time>
<s>就像我们后来的部落似的</s>
<time>713_00:31:26,533 --> 00:31:27,233</time>
<s>好多好多部落</s>
<time>714_00:31:27,933 --> 00:31:28,967</time>
<s>它没有好好地统一起来</s>
<time>715_00:31:29,667 --> 00:31:30,033</time>
<s>所以它战斗力不行</s>
<time>716_00:31:30,733 --> 00:31:31,433</time>
<s>商朝不一样</s>
<time>717_00:31:31,767 --> 00:31:32,467</time>
<s>各个部族统一了</s>
<time>718_00:31:33,533 --> 00:31:34,567</time>
<s>商王一句号令</s>
<time>719_00:31:36,333 --> 00:31:37,033</time>
<s>一支部队就过去了</s>
<time>720_00:31:37,733 --> 00:31:38,433</time>
<s>下次我会讲到它那个</s>
<time>721_00:31:39,133 --> 00:31:40,167</time>
<s>军队组织是很严密的</s>
<time>722_00:31:41,233 --> 00:31:45,067</time>
<s>一个人带30个矛兵30个戈兵</s>
<time>723_00:31:45,433 --> 00:31:45,767</time>
<s>该冲就冲</s>
<time>724_00:31:46,833 --> 00:31:47,533</time>
<s>所以他们赢了</s>
<time>725_00:31:48,233 --> 00:31:51,733</time>
<s>也就是那个时候的人还没有南迁</s>
<time>726_00:31:53,133 --> 00:31:54,167</time>
<s>那个时候的羌人</s>
<time>727_00:31:54,533 --> 00:31:55,567</time>
<s>他主要是生活在</s>
<time>728_00:31:56,267 --> 00:31:58,733</time>
<s>今天的甘肃东部东南部</s>
<time>729_00:31:59,433 --> 00:32:00,467</time>
<s>陕西的西部这一带</s>
<time>730_00:32:01,533 --> 00:32:04,333</time>
<s>到后来才迁走的</s>
<time>731_00:32:05,033 --> 00:32:06,067</time>
<s>实际上按道理来讲</s>
<time>732_00:32:06,433 --> 00:32:08,533</time>
<s>商人跟人直接在商人的西部接壤</s>
<time>733_00:32:09,567 --> 00:32:10,267</time>
<s>他们有频繁的接触</s>
<time>734_00:32:11,333 --> 00:32:14,833</time>
<s>明显是商人给了羌人互大的压力</s>
<time>735_00:32:15,867 --> 00:32:16,567</time>
<s>把羌人往西压</s>
<time>736_00:32:18,333 --> 00:32:20,767</time>
<s>后来周人强大以后</s>
<time>737_00:32:21,833 --> 00:32:22,533</time>
<s>因为周人实际上是</s>
<time>738_00:32:23,933 --> 00:32:24,633</time>
<s>在陕西一带强大的</s>
<time>739_00:32:25,333 --> 00:32:26,733</time>
<s>他实际上夺了人的地盘</s>
<time>740_00:32:27,433 --> 00:32:29,533</time>
<s>比如说西周有一支叫姜</s>
<time>741_00:32:30,933 --> 00:32:31,633</time>
<s>姜子牙那一支</s>
<time>742_00:32:33,033 --> 00:32:34,067</time>
<s>它也是羌人的一支</s>
<time>743_00:32:35,133 --> 00:32:38,267</time>
<s>周人跟羌人又敌对又融合</s>
<time>744_00:32:38,967 --> 00:32:40,367</time>
<s>羌人的一支甚至帮着周人</s>
<time>745_00:32:41,433 --> 00:32:42,133</time>
<s>后来推翻了商朝政权</s>
<time>746_00:32:43,167 --> 00:32:44,233</time>
<s>但是总体上来讲是</s>
<time>747_00:32:44,933 --> 00:32:46,667</time>
<s>商人把羌人压迫到了</s>
<time>748_00:32:48,433 --> 00:32:49,133</time>
<s>很小的地带</s>
<time>749_00:32:49,833 --> 00:32:52,267</time>
<s>中国古代后来有一个王朝叫后秦</s>
<time>750_00:32:53,333 --> 00:32:55,767</time>
<s>后秦是一个叫姚的人建立的</s>
<time>751_00:32:56,467 --> 00:32:57,167</time>
<s>姚就是族</s>
<time>752_00:32:57,867 --> 00:32:58,233</time>
<s>他就是羌人</s>
<time>753_00:32:58,933 --> 00:33:04,167</time>
<s>羌人曾经起来在中原一带</s>
<time>754_00:33:04,533 --> 00:33:06,267</time>
<s>活跃过一段时间</s>
<time>755_00:33:06,633 --> 00:33:08,367</time>
<s>但是后来还是没有干过汉人</s>
<time>756_00:33:09,433 --> 00:33:10,833</time>
<s>后来又被汉人挤压</s>
<time>757_00:33:15,733 --> 00:33:21,333</time>
<s>俊鱼、小房子、张不二、聪聪</s>
