<time>568_00:22:32,067 --> 00:22:33,467</time>
<s>实际上城它是一个面</s>
<time>569_00:22:34,533 --> 00:22:34,867</time>
<s>是一个很大的面积</s>
<time>570_00:22:35,233 --> 00:22:36,633</time>
<s>比方说多少平方公里</s>
<time>571_00:22:37,333 --> 00:22:38,733</time>
<s>但是城墙</s>
<time>572_00:22:40,133 --> 00:22:40,833</time>
<s>它是一个很大的物体</s>
<time>573_00:22:42,233 --> 00:22:44,333</time>
<s>几十米宽十几米高</s>
<time>574_00:22:45,733 --> 00:22:47,833</time>
<s>那就有可能城在地底下埋着</s>
<time>575_00:22:48,167 --> 00:22:49,567</time>
<s>城墙如果不倒的话</s>
<time>576_00:22:50,633 --> 00:22:52,033</time>
<s>就杆到今天地面了</s>
<time>577_00:22:53,067 --> 00:22:54,467</time>
<s>这就给我们的工作带来一个机会</s>
<time>578_00:22:54,833 --> 00:22:56,567</time>
<s>我们有可能先发现城墙</s>
<time>579_00:22:57,633 --> 00:23:00,067</time>
<s>然后十几米以下的</s>
<time>580_00:23:00,433 --> 00:23:00,767</time>
<s>城里头的东西</s>
<time>581_00:23:01,133 --> 00:23:01,467</time>
<s>我们再说</s>
<time>582_00:23:02,167 --> 00:23:03,233</time>
<s>所以城墙有可能找得到</s>
<time>583_00:23:03,933 --> 00:23:05,667</time>
<s>但是找城墙也不那么容易</s>
<time>584_00:23:06,733 --> 00:23:07,067</time>
<s>茫茫一片</s>
<time>585_00:23:08,833 --> 00:23:10,233</time>
<s>我们后来还真找到了</s>
<time>586_00:23:11,267 --> 00:23:12,333</time>
<s>这就是那个城墙的平面图</s>
<time>587_00:23:13,033 --> 00:23:13,733</time>
<s>这有几个方块</s>
<time>588_00:23:14,067 --> 00:23:14,433</time>
<s>你要看准了</s>
<time>589_00:23:15,133 --> 00:23:16,533</time>
<s>是那个平行四边形的那个</s>
<time>590_00:23:17,567 --> 00:23:19,333</time>
<s>那个是宋的都城</s>
<time>591_00:23:20,033 --> 00:23:22,133</time>
<s>很可能就是微子（王的长兄）封宋的那个都城</s>
<time>592_00:23:22,833 --> 00:23:24,233</time>
<s>就是西周初年</s>
<time>593_00:23:24,567 --> 00:23:27,367</time>
<s>把商朝的后人微子封到这个地方</s>
<time>594_00:23:28,067 --> 00:23:29,133</time>
<s>这个城怎么找到的呢</s>
<time>595_00:23:30,167 --> 00:23:31,933</time>
<s>其实很偶然</s>
<time>596_00:23:32,633 --> 00:23:32,967</time>
<s>我刚才讲了</s>
<time>597_00:23:33,667 --> 00:23:36,467</time>
<s>当这个城墙比较高大的时候</s>
<time>598_00:23:36,833 --> 00:23:37,167</time>
<s>它不倒的时候</s>
<time>599_00:23:37,867 --> 00:23:39,633</time>
<s>它有可能杆到今天地面</s>
<time>600_00:23:40,333 --> 00:23:42,433</time>
<s>但是人类又在地面上反复地耕作</s>
<time>601_00:23:43,833 --> 00:23:45,567</time>
<s>把地面搞成一个平原</s>
<time>602_00:23:45,933 --> 00:23:46,267</time>
<s>对不对</s>
<time>603_00:23:46,633 --> 00:23:48,033</time>
<s>你其实很难去找</s>
<time>604_00:23:48,367 --> 00:23:49,433</time>
<s>我们用了很多办法</s>
<time>605_00:23:49,767 --> 00:23:51,533</time>
<s>最早用磁力仪</s>
<time>606_00:23:53,267 --> 00:23:53,967</time>
<s>电阻仪</s>
<time>607_00:23:54,333 --> 00:23:55,733</time>
<s>满世界跑</s>
<time>608_00:23:56,433 --> 00:23:56,767</time>
<s>结果由于各种干扰</s>
<time>609_00:23:57,467 --> 00:23:57,833</time>
<s>根本不行</s>
<time>610_00:23:58,867 --> 00:24:00,967</time>
<s>后来又专门从加拿大买了一个设备</s>
<time>611_00:24:01,667 --> 00:24:03,767</time>
<s>那时候中国不像今天科技发达</s>
<time>612_00:24:04,833 --> 00:24:06,567</time>
<s>那个时候就是靠洋人的东西</s>
<time>613_00:24:07,267 --> 00:24:08,667</time>
<s>我们花了60万人民币</s>
<time>614_00:24:10,067 --> 00:24:11,467</time>
<s>买了一台加拿大的雷达</s>
<time>615_00:24:12,533 --> 00:24:13,567</time>
<s>叫透地雷达</s>
<time>616_00:24:13,933 --> 00:24:16,367</time>
<s>结果做了一个季度也不行</s>
<time>617_00:24:18,133 --> 00:24:18,467</time>
<s>根本不行</s>
<time>618_00:24:19,533 --> 00:24:20,233</time>
<s>最后怎么找到的呢</s>
<time>619_00:24:21,267 --> 00:24:24,067</time>
<s>我们里头有一个很重要的考古队员</s>
<time>620_00:24:24,433 --> 00:24:25,133</time>
<s>就是刚才我说的那个</s>
<time>621_00:24:26,533 --> 00:24:28,967</time>
<s>做商丘地貌的那个考古学家</s>
<time>622_00:24:29,333 --> 00:24:30,033</time>
<s>他叫荆志淳</s>
<time>623_00:24:31,433 --> 00:24:33,867</time>
<s>他有地质学的背景</s>
<time>624_00:24:34,233 --> 00:24:34,933</time>
<s>他是学地质出来的</s>
<time>625_00:24:35,267 --> 00:24:35,967</time>
<s>后来改学考古</s>
<time>626_00:24:38,433 --> 00:24:39,133</time>
<s>他知道</s>
<time>627_00:24:40,867 --> 00:24:43,667</time>
<s>古人在地面上营建城墙的时候</s>
<time>628_00:24:44,367 --> 00:24:45,433</time>
<s>它是挖的当年的士</s>
<time>629_00:24:46,467 --> 00:24:47,867</time>
<s>就是10米以下的土</s>
<time>630_00:24:48,933 --> 00:24:49,967</time>
<s>挖完以后把它筑起城墙来</s>
<time>631_00:24:50,333 --> 00:24:50,667</time>
<s>筑得很高</s>
<time>632_00:24:52,433 --> 00:24:56,967</time>
<s>后来只是说水把淤泥从上游带下来</s>
<time>633_00:24:57,667 --> 00:24:58,367</time>
<s>把它给淹盖了</s>
<time>634_00:24:59,067 --> 00:24:59,767</time>
<s>但是你注意到没有</s>
<time>635_00:25:00,467 --> 00:25:02,233</time>
<s>水流带来的土壤</s>
<time>636_00:25:03,967 --> 00:25:04,667</time>
<s>它是分层的</s>
<time>637_00:25:05,733 --> 00:25:06,067</time>
<s>它要么就是沙</s>
<time>638_00:25:06,433 --> 00:25:06,767</time>
<s>要么就是泥</s>
<time>639_00:25:07,467 --> 00:25:09,933</time>
<s>而原来人工挖出来</s>
<time>640_00:25:10,633 --> 00:25:12,033</time>
<s>杵起来的那个城墙</s>
<time>641_00:25:13,067 --> 00:25:13,767</time>
<s>它的结构是不一样的</s>
<time>642_00:25:14,833 --> 00:25:17,267</time>
<s>而一旦当年挖的不是淤土</s>
<time>643_00:25:17,633 --> 00:25:19,733</time>
<s>是地下的土挖出来以后</s>
<time>644_00:25:20,767 --> 00:25:22,533</time>
<s>它那个土里头可能会有特殊的东西</s>
<time>645_00:25:22,867 --> 00:25:23,933</time>
<s>特别是在华北地区</s>
<time>646_00:25:25,667 --> 00:25:28,133</time>
<s>它经常会包含一种叫料疆石的东西</s>
<time>647_00:25:28,833 --> 00:25:31,633</time>
<s>料疆石就是土壤里头的一种钙</s>
<time>648_00:25:32,333 --> 00:25:33,367</time>
<s>通过凝力作用</s>
<time>649_00:25:34,067 --> 00:25:35,133</time>
<s>积揽到某一个地方</s>
<time>650_00:25:35,833 --> 00:25:36,867</time>
<s>形成一个硬疙瘩</s>
<time>651_00:25:37,933 --> 00:25:39,333</time>
<s>所以荆志淳呢</s>
<time>652_00:25:39,667 --> 00:25:40,367</time>
<s>这我好朋友哈</s>
<time>653_00:25:41,067 --> 00:25:45,633</time>
<s>他就跟他带的几个助手说</s>
<time>654_00:25:45,967 --> 00:25:47,033</time>
<s>我们找别的可能不行了</s>
<time>655_00:25:47,733 --> 00:25:48,767</time>
<s>我们只有一个希望</s>
<time>656_00:25:49,133 --> 00:25:49,467</time>
<s>就是找老土</s>
<time>657_00:25:50,167 --> 00:25:50,867</time>
<s>老的土有一个特点</s>
<time>658_00:25:51,233 --> 00:25:52,633</time>
<s>就是很可能会有料石</s>
<time>659_00:25:53,333 --> 00:25:54,033</time>
<s>你们找到料疆土石</s>
<time>660_00:25:54,733 --> 00:25:55,067</time>
<s>立马告诉我</s>
<time>661_00:25:55,433 --> 00:25:57,167</time>
<s>然后他的考古队员</s>
<time>662_00:25:58,233 --> 00:25:59,267</time>
<s>就记住了他这句话</s>
<time>663_00:26:00,333 --> 00:26:01,367</time>
<s>有一天他们正在工作着</s>
<time>664_00:26:01,733 --> 00:26:02,067</time>
<s>跟这个图一样</s>
<time>665_00:26:02,433 --> 00:26:03,467</time>
<s>在这个麦子地里</s>
<time>666_00:26:04,167 --> 00:26:04,867</time>
<s>或者树林里</s>
<time>667_00:26:05,567 --> 00:26:06,267</time>
<s>做着钻探</s>
<time>668_00:26:06,633 --> 00:26:07,333</time>
<s>做着别的工作</s>
<time>669_00:26:08,033 --> 00:26:09,767</time>
<s>有一个技工他说</s>
<time>670_00:26:10,467 --> 00:26:11,167</time>
<s>不行我肚子不舒服</s>
<time>671_00:26:11,867 --> 00:26:13,267</time>
<s>我得上个厕所去</s>
<time>672_00:26:14,333 --> 00:26:15,733</time>
<s>附近没有茅房</s>
<time>673_00:26:16,767 --> 00:26:19,233</time>
<s>他就跑到一个麦子地里上厕所</s>
<time>674_00:26:20,967 --> 00:26:21,667</time>
<s>结果上厕所以后他一看</s>
<time>675_00:26:22,033 --> 00:26:22,367</time>
<s>没带纸</s>
<time>676_00:26:24,467 --> 00:26:25,867</time>
<s>那个时候农民的习惯</s>
<time>677_00:26:26,233 --> 00:26:27,633</time>
<s>就是随便拿个土疙瘩就可以擦屁股</s>
<time>678_00:26:28,667 --> 00:26:29,367</time>
<s>他就是摸</s>
<time>679_00:26:30,067 --> 00:26:30,767</time>
<s>摸着擦屁股</s>
<time>680_00:26:31,133 --> 00:26:31,467</time>
<s>一摸以后</s>
<time>681_00:26:34,967 --> 00:26:36,733</time>
<s>怎么这么</s>
<time>682_00:26:37,433 --> 00:26:38,467</time>
<s>完了一看一块料疆石</s>
<time>683_00:26:39,533 --> 00:26:40,933</time>
<s>他立马就把裤子一穿</s>
<time>684_00:26:42,333 --> 00:26:43,733</time>
<s>荆博士荆博士</s>
<time>685_00:26:44,433 --> 00:26:45,133</time>
<s>找到料疆石了</s>
<time>686_00:26:46,867 --> 00:26:47,933</time>
<s>这是很重要的现象啊</s>
<time>687_00:26:48,633 --> 00:26:50,033</time>
<s>找到了料疆石</s>
<time>688_00:26:50,367 --> 00:26:51,767</time>
<s>就意味着找到了古土壤</s>
<time>689_00:26:52,467 --> 00:26:53,867</time>
<s>找到了古土壤</s>
<time>690_00:26:54,233 --> 00:26:55,967</time>
<s>就意味着有机会找到重要的</s>
<time>691_00:26:56,667 --> 00:26:57,733</time>
<s>那个时候的考古现象</s>
<time>692_00:26:59,133 --> 00:26:59,467</time>
<s>果不其然</s>
<time>693_00:27:00,167 --> 00:27:02,967</time>
<s>就在他上厕所这个地方打钻</s>
<time>694_00:27:03,333 --> 00:27:04,033</time>
<s>打下去</s>
<time>695_00:27:04,733 --> 00:27:05,767</time>
<s>土铲一提上来</s>
<time>696_00:27:07,167 --> 00:27:07,867</time>
<s>再打再打</s>
<time>697_00:27:08,233 --> 00:27:09,967</time>
<s>跟边上的土完全不一样</s>
<time>698_00:27:11,033 --> 00:27:12,433</time>
<s>结果后来证实</s>
<time>699_00:27:13,133 --> 00:27:14,867</time>
<s>这是一堵城墙</s>
<time>700_00:27:16,967 --> 00:27:20,133</time>
<s>有了一个城墙的起始点以后</s>
<time>701_00:27:20,467 --> 00:27:22,933</time>
<s>其实城墙是有规律的</s>
<time>702_00:27:23,633 --> 00:27:24,333</time>
<s>跟着它一钻探</s>
<time>703_00:27:24,667 --> 00:27:27,467</time>
<s>就把整个城墙钻探出来了</s>
<time>704_00:27:28,167 --> 00:27:29,233</time>
<s>钻探出来以后</s>
<time>705_00:27:29,933 --> 00:27:30,267</time>
<s>选个地方发掘</s>
<time>706_00:27:30,967 --> 00:27:32,367</time>
<s>这是当年城墙发掘出来的一个剖面图</s>
<time>707_00:27:32,733 --> 00:27:34,467</time>
<s>这个就是城墙的夯土块</s>
<time>708_00:27:34,833 --> 00:27:35,867</time>
<s>手拿着的那个</s>
<time>709_00:27:36,933 --> 00:27:39,733</time>
<s>手拿着的是一个砸得很密实的老土</s>
<time>710_00:27:40,433 --> 00:27:40,767</time>
<s>很硬</s>
<time>711_00:27:41,467 --> 00:27:44,267</time>
<s>它完全不像水流冲刷的地层堆积</s>
<time>712_00:27:44,967 --> 00:27:47,767</time>
<s>这样就把这个城发现了</s>
<time>713_00:27:48,833 --> 00:27:50,233</time>
<s>那么这个城是什么时代的呢</s>
<time>714_00:27:51,633 --> 00:27:52,667</time>
<s>经过发掘证实</s>
<time>715_00:27:53,033 --> 00:27:55,467</time>
<s>这个城是经过几次修整的</s>
<time>716_00:27:56,533 --> 00:27:57,567</time>
<s>东周时候修整过</s>
<time>717_00:27:57,933 --> 00:27:58,633</time>
<s>汉代还修整过</s>
<time>718_00:27:59,667 --> 00:28:01,433</time>
<s>但是最底下那一层</s>
<time>719_00:28:02,133 --> 00:28:04,233</time>
<s>还真是西周时候的</s>
<time>720_00:28:05,967 --> 00:28:07,033</time>
<s>也就是说搞不好就是宋国的</s>
<time>721_00:28:08,067 --> 00:28:08,767</time>
<s>大家想一想</s>
<time>722_00:28:09,467 --> 00:28:10,867</time>
<s>如果这个城是宋国的</s>
<time>723_00:28:11,933 --> 00:28:12,633</time>
<s>再跟文献上一对</s>
<time>724_00:28:13,667 --> 00:28:15,067</time>
<s>有希望了吧</s>
<time>725_00:28:16,467 --> 00:28:19,633</time>
<s>商丘是商朝人的族源地就有可能成立了</s>
<time>726_00:28:21,033 --> 00:28:21,367</time>
<s>但是呢</s>
<time>727_00:28:22,433 --> 00:28:24,167</time>
<s>乖乖它那个陶器对不上啊</s>
<time>728_00:28:26,267 --> 00:28:27,667</time>
<s>你这个出的是岳石文化的</s>
<time>729_00:28:28,367 --> 00:28:30,467</time>
<s>那边才是先商文化那套东西</s>
<time>730_00:28:30,833 --> 00:28:31,167</time>
<s>对不上怎么办</s>
<time>731_00:28:32,233 --> 00:28:33,633</time>
<s>于是只能做一个解释</s>
<time>732_00:28:34,333 --> 00:28:35,033</time>
<s>这是张光直的解释</s>
<time>733_00:28:35,733 --> 00:28:36,433</time>
<s>张光直怎么解释的呢</s>
<time>734_00:28:38,167 --> 00:28:39,567</time>
<s>商朝的人有两批人</s>
<time>735_00:28:40,633 --> 00:28:41,333</time>
<s>一批是贵族</s>
<time>736_00:28:42,367 --> 00:28:43,067</time>
<s>所谓的征服者</s>
<time>737_00:28:44,467 --> 00:28:46,567</time>
<s>这一些人可能是岳石文化的人</s>
<time>738_00:28:47,967 --> 00:28:49,033</time>
<s>而那些陶器</s>
<time>739_00:28:50,067 --> 00:28:50,433</time>
<s>坛坛罐罐那一些</s>
<time>740_00:28:51,133 --> 00:28:51,833</time>
<s>那是被统治的人</s>
<time>741_00:28:52,867 --> 00:28:56,367</time>
<s>他们可能是从河北南部过去的</s>
<time>742_00:28:57,067 --> 00:28:57,767</time>
<s>所以这是两批人</s>
<time>743_00:28:58,133 --> 00:28:59,167</time>
<s>他给了这么一个解释</s>
<time>744_00:29:00,233 --> 00:29:03,733</time>
<s>所以整个商族起源的问题</s>
<time>745_00:29:04,067 --> 00:29:04,767</time>
<s>经过这么考古发掘以后</s>
<time>746_00:29:05,133 --> 00:29:06,533</time>
<s>得了这么一个结论</s>
<time>747_00:29:06,867 --> 00:29:08,967</time>
<s>这是今年我们刚刚出版的</s>
<time>748_00:29:09,333 --> 00:29:10,733</time>
<s>一个豫东考古的报告</s>
<time>749_00:29:11,067 --> 00:29:12,833</time>
<s>主要是我跟荆志淳写出来的</s>
<time>750_00:29:13,167 --> 00:29:16,333</time>
<s>其实出版也就是两个多月之前</s>
<time>751_00:29:17,033 --> 00:29:18,067</time>
<s>所以我今天讲这个</s>
<time>752_00:29:18,767 --> 00:29:21,233</time>
<s>可以说是刚刚新鲜出炉的科研成果</s>
<time>753_00:29:21,567 --> 00:29:24,033</time>
<s>但实际上我觉得在这个基础上</s>
<time>754_00:29:24,367 --> 00:29:25,433</time>
<s>其实还要做一些工作</s>
<time>755_00:29:26,133 --> 00:29:26,467</time>
<s>什么工作呢</s>
<time>756_00:29:26,833 --> 00:29:29,967</time>
<s>其实还是要把人骨头考虑起来</s>
<time>757_00:29:30,667 --> 00:29:32,433</time>
<s>我们既然知道安阳殷墟</s>
<time>758_00:29:32,767 --> 00:29:34,167</time>
<s>有商朝人的骨头</s>
<time>759_00:29:34,867 --> 00:29:37,667</time>
<s>知道郑州是商代的早期</s>
<time>760_00:29:38,367 --> 00:29:38,733</time>
<s>也有骨头</s>
<time>761_00:29:39,767 --> 00:29:40,133</time>
<s>其实同一个人种</s>
<time>762_00:29:40,833 --> 00:29:41,867</time>
<s>它总有一些特性是相像的</s>
<time>763_00:29:42,233 --> 00:29:43,633</time>
<s>比如说我们可以用DNA的办法</s>
<time>764_00:29:44,667 --> 00:29:46,067</time>
<s>我们可以用古病理的办法</s>
<time>765_00:29:46,767 --> 00:29:48,533</time>
<s>来追溯这些人骨头的各种痕迹</s>
<time>766_00:29:49,567 --> 00:29:49,933</time>
<s>也就是说</s>
<time>767_00:29:50,633 --> 00:29:51,333</time>
<s>通过这个方法</s>
<time>768_00:29:52,033 --> 00:29:52,733</time>
<s>把人骨头的</s>
<time>769_00:29:53,433 --> 00:29:54,133</time>
<s>文献的</s>
<time>770_00:29:54,833 --> 00:29:56,233</time>
<s>还有考古学文化的方法</s>
<time>771_00:29:56,567 --> 00:29:57,267</time>
<s>全都结合起来</s>
<time>772_00:29:58,667 --> 00:30:00,067</time>
<s>搞不好就有希望</s>
<time>773_00:30:00,767 --> 00:30:01,467</time>
<s>除了人骨头之外</s>
<time>774_00:30:02,167 --> 00:30:02,533</time>
<s>还有一个办法</s>
<time>775_00:30:03,233 --> 00:30:04,633</time>
<s>就是陶器法</s>
<time>776_00:30:05,667 --> 00:30:07,067</time>
<s>因为我们刚才讲的文化法</s>
<time>777_00:30:07,767 --> 00:30:09,167</time>
<s>说陶器的样子像不像</s>
<time>778_00:30:10,567 --> 00:30:10,933</time>
<s>但实际上</s>
<time>779_00:30:11,633 --> 00:30:14,067</time>
<s>器物的形态像其实还不足以说明问题</s>
<time>780_00:30:14,433 --> 00:30:17,567</time>
<s>比方说某个地方的人</s>
<time>781_00:30:18,267 --> 00:30:20,367</time>
<s>他可以学那个地方的人的样子</s>
<time>782_00:30:21,067 --> 00:30:21,433</time>
<s>来造一个器物</s>
<time>783_00:30:22,133 --> 00:30:23,533</time>
<s>它不见得说你这个文化就是那来的</s>
<time>784_00:30:24,933 --> 00:30:26,333</time>
<s>所以还要结合一些别的方法</s>
<time>785_00:30:26,667 --> 00:30:28,767</time>
<s>比方说我们叫陶器切片法</s>
<time>786_00:30:29,833 --> 00:30:32,267</time>
<s>就是把陶器从形态上分完类之后</s>
<time>787_00:30:32,967 --> 00:30:34,733</time>
<s>还要看它里头的结构</s>
<time>788_00:30:35,433 --> 00:30:37,867</time>
<s>还要看它器物里头那个土是不是本地的</s>
<time>789_00:30:38,567 --> 00:30:39,967</time>
<s>假定说它的士也不是本地的</s>
<time>790_00:30:40,333 --> 00:30:40,667</time>
<s>是别的地方来的</s>
<time>791_00:30:41,033 --> 00:30:42,067</time>
<s>它可能真是那个地方的人来了</s>
<time>792_00:30:42,767 --> 00:30:44,533</time>
<s>因为古代不像现在有高铁</s>
<time>793_00:30:44,867 --> 00:30:46,633</time>
<s>他要挪动一下是很难的</s>
<time>794_00:30:46,967 --> 00:30:48,033</time>
<s>他是带着坛坛罐罐的</s>
<time>795_00:30:49,067 --> 00:30:49,767</time>
<s>陶器得跟着他走</s>
<time>796_00:30:50,467 --> 00:30:52,233</time>
<s>所以陶器是有可能带过来的</s>
<time>797_00:30:52,567 --> 00:30:53,967</time>
<s>如果用这样的方法</s>
<time>798_00:30:54,667 --> 00:30:56,433</time>
<s>把郑州商城</s>
<time>799_00:30:57,133 --> 00:30:59,567</time>
<s>这是郑州商城早年的一个城墙的照片</s>
<time>800_00:31:00,267 --> 00:31:01,667</time>
<s>这个城在地面上现在还在呢</s>
<time>801_00:31:03,067 --> 00:31:06,233</time>
<s>把郑州商城所能见到的陶器也好</s>
<time>802_00:31:07,967 --> 00:31:09,033</time>
<s>以及人骨头</s>
<time>803_00:31:09,733 --> 00:31:11,467</time>
<s>包括安阳的人骨头</s>
<time>804_00:31:12,167 --> 00:31:13,233</time>
<s>郑州的人骨头</s>
<time>805_00:31:13,933 --> 00:31:14,633</time>
<s>全都结合起来</s>
<time>806_00:31:14,967 --> 00:31:15,667</time>
<s>做一个综合的研究</s>
<time>807_00:31:17,067 --> 00:31:17,767</time>
<s>搞不好有希挚</s>
<time>808_00:31:18,467 --> 00:31:19,533</time>
<s>而其中有意思的是</s>
<time>809_00:31:19,867 --> 00:31:21,967</time>
<s>人骨头这个事情还真是露出了曙光</s>
<time>810_00:31:22,667 --> 00:31:24,067</time>
<s>在河南的鹤壁</s>
<time>811_00:31:24,433 --> 00:31:25,133</time>
<s>由于南水北调</s>
<time>812_00:31:26,167 --> 00:31:27,933</time>
<s>要把丹江口的水调到北京来</s>
<time>813_00:31:28,633 --> 00:31:28,967</time>
<s>让咱们喝</s>
<time>814_00:31:29,667 --> 00:31:31,767</time>
<s>这个渠道经过鹤壁的时候</s>
<time>815_00:31:32,833 --> 00:31:33,867</time>
<s>要流经一片麦子地</s>
<time>816_00:31:34,933 --> 00:31:36,667</time>
<s>这个麦子地里发现了一批墓葬</s>
<time>817_00:31:37,367 --> 00:31:39,133</time>
<s>这片墓葬出土了这么一件</s>
<time>818_00:31:39,833 --> 00:31:41,233</time>
<s>这就是典型的商文化的东西啊</s>
<time>819_00:31:41,933 --> 00:31:43,333</time>
<s>然后又出土了这么一件</s>
<time>820_00:31:44,033 --> 00:31:44,367</time>
<s>这是一件石钱</s>
<time>821_00:31:45,433 --> 00:31:47,167</time>
<s>这个刚好又是相当于</s>
<time>822_00:31:48,567 --> 00:31:49,633</time>
<s>我们说的二里头文化</s>
<time>823_00:31:49,967 --> 00:31:51,033</time>
<s>就是夏文化这个阶段的东西</s>
<time>824_00:31:51,733 --> 00:31:53,133</time>
<s>就证明这些东西的年代</s>
<time>825_00:31:53,833 --> 00:31:54,533</time>
<s>跟夏王朝年代差不多</s>
<time>826_00:31:55,233 --> 00:31:56,967</time>
<s>也就是刚好它的年代又比商王朝要早</s>
<time>827_00:31:58,367 --> 00:31:59,767</time>
<s>所以从考古学文化上讲</s>
<time>828_00:32:00,133 --> 00:32:00,833</time>
<s>这一批材料</s>
<time>829_00:32:01,533 --> 00:32:02,933</time>
<s>这一批陶器石器</s>
<time>830_00:32:03,267 --> 00:32:05,033</time>
<s>刚好相当于先商那个阶段</s>
<time>831_00:32:05,733 --> 00:32:07,467</time>
<s>而且跟商文化是接起来的</s>
<time>832_00:32:08,167 --> 00:32:09,233</time>
<s>然后它又有人骨头</s>
<time>833_00:32:10,267 --> 00:32:10,967</time>
<s>它出土一批墓葬</s>
<time>834_00:32:11,667 --> 00:32:12,367</time>
<s>墓葬里头是有人的</s>
<time>835_00:32:12,733 --> 00:32:14,467</time>
<s>这些骨头都取回家了</s>
<time>836_00:32:14,833 --> 00:32:17,267</time>
<s>现在我们需要的是组织一个课题</s>
<time>837_00:32:17,967 --> 00:32:18,667</time>
<s>做一个科研攻矣</s>
<time>838_00:32:19,367 --> 00:32:22,167</time>
<s>搞不好就会知道商朝人是哪里来的</s>
<time>839_00:32:22,867 --> 00:32:23,567</time>
<s>最终解决这个问题</s>
<time>840_00:32:24,267 --> 00:32:24,967</time>
<s>当然这个工作还没做</s>
<time>841_00:32:26,033 --> 00:32:26,733</time>
<s>还要继续</s>
<time>842_00:32:27,067 --> 00:32:28,133</time>
<s>所以我今天讲的这个是一个</s>
<time>843_00:32:28,833 --> 00:32:29,533</time>
<s>进行了很多年</s>
<time>844_00:32:30,933 --> 00:32:31,967</time>
<s>几乎进行了一个多世纪</s>
<time>845_00:32:32,333 --> 00:32:34,067</time>
<s>或者几个世纪的这么一个课题</s>
<time>846_00:32:36,167 --> 00:32:37,567</time>
<s>今天还没有结项</s>
<time>847_00:32:42,467 --> 00:32:49,833</time>
<s>俊鱼、小房子、张不二、聪聪</s>
